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skyquest25
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Reged: 08/22/12

Loc: United States
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5746858 - 03/21/13 03:08 AM

How can you disagree that imaging requires stricter conditions ? Your post even supports that position

You use one great example, shine a green laser, image ruined. Shine a green laser, visually not ruined.

Which required more strict conditions ?

I agree that both can suffer, I don't think anyone would disagree with that stance. But one allows recovery, the other doesn't, hence(again)more strict conditions apply to imaging.


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DeanS
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: skyquest25]
      #5747090 - 03/21/13 08:47 AM

WSP has a sky program using a laser pointer 1 night during the week. It is scheduled and runs about a hour right after dark. Not a big deal since we know it is going to happen. I was actually imaging during that time and not sure it really had any negative effects on my subs.

Many new imagers are pushing it a little with laptop monitors being too bright. Some don't realize that just night mode is not enough and a dark red plexi screen cover is a must. Even then the brightness should be turned down a bit.

I use a small hunting blind as my portable control room. Originally for the dew and cold protection, but also so I can set my red screens a bit brighter. However like someone suggested, I still need to be mindful when I exit as it can flood some light light out.

And the amount of light a small LED from a power supply can put out is amazing. The green and blue ones are particularly bad.

Dean


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DeanS
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: DeanS]
      #5747104 - 03/21/13 09:00 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

here is what lasers can do to imagers

PS, this was during a full cloud out, about our 4th night in a row so we all where getting a bit restless and bored.


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DeanS
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Reged: 07/12/05

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Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: DeanS]
      #5747120 - 03/21/13 09:04 AM Attachment (11 downloads)

TO get this effect we had to hold the laser in each position for a bit to get it to show. Just moving it quickly did not show it well.

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skyquest25
member


Reged: 08/22/12

Loc: United States
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: DeanS]
      #5747174 - 03/21/13 09:25 AM



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DeanS
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Central Kentucky
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: skyquest25]
      #5747391 - 03/21/13 11:24 AM

Don't think the laser photos are against the terms are they? I am not promoting their use, but more to show how they can adversely effect imagers. That is my story at least.

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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: skyquest25]
      #5747439 - 03/21/13 11:51 AM

Quote:

How can you disagree that imaging requires stricter conditions ? Your post even supports that position




*One* case supports a problem for imaging. And even in that case, it only applies if the laser happens to cross the object that I'm imaging. And even then, it doesn't ruin the image, just a single subexposure.

Let me put it another way.

At the star parties I attend, green lasers are prohibited, except for a pre-scheduled program put on by the star party. I have not seen any green laser use outside of this in attending about 40 events. Stray light events from car door opening, hitting the wrong switch on a flashlight, someone turning on a light in an RV,etc. are quite common. Each of them hurts visual observing, but none of them bother imaging.

As a visual user, I don't even want to stroll through the imaging area when dark. The stray light from equipment LEDs, laptop screens, reflected light from people's faces, etc. *always* kills my dark adaptation for about a half hour afterwards.

They provide an imaging area that is separate from visual areas at OSP, a star party that I regularly attend. 15 years ago, they did this to protect imagers. Now, it serves mainly to protect serious visual observers trying to make the most of the very dark skies there. It's funny that the signs in the imaging area still say "severe light restrictions", because it is obvious that there's more stray light there than anywhere else at the site (outside of the late night vendors).

So my answer is not theoretical. I see it at all the events that I attend.

What I'm dreading, is the adoption of all these touch screen devices for telescope control. All of them require a backlit screen with no protective red screen. As adoption increases, it's going to become impossible to do any serious observing at visual limits at a group event.

I'll also throw in that I've never lost a subexposure at a star party due to stray light.


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skyquest25
member


Reged: 08/22/12

Loc: United States
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5747660 - 03/21/13 01:38 PM

I see your perspective. Thanks.

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Skylook123
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/30/05

Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5748702 - 03/21/13 10:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

but I'd also like some sort of 'cave' to put a laptop in.





There is one on the market. I'll see if I can find a link.

Edit: here's one Link

I believe there's one that's made out of a soft material also; I'll try to find that one.

Here it IS





Here's the CompuShade I use on my laptop for solar web cam use and night satellite tracking with a crowd. I also wrap a 3M privacy screen in rubylith or cellophane, depending on which computer use. The shade folds up againste the back of the screen when not in use (video at bottom of web site).

CompusShade


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: Skylook123]
      #5751580 - 03/23/13 11:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

but I'd also like some sort of 'cave' to put a laptop in.





There is one on the market. I'll see if I can find a link.

Edit: here's one Link

I believe there's one that's made out of a soft material also; I'll try to find that one.

Here it IS





Here's the CompuShade I use on my laptop for solar web cam use and night satellite tracking with a crowd. I also wrap a 3M privacy screen in rubylith or cellophane, depending on which computer use. The shade folds up againste the back of the screen when not in use (video at bottom of web site).

CompusShade




Thanks guys..... I now have no excuse to have a naked laptop at the next star party!


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: t.r.]
      #5751588 - 03/23/13 11:14 AM

Quote:

Well, after this thread, I now know how to thoroughly screw with a bunch of star party goers! And apparently all that is needed is a flashlight, what cheap fun!




Ya better watch it there..... I have a box full of Rini eyepieces to thro at people with white-light flashlights.


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DarkSkys
professor emeritus
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Reged: 10/11/10

Loc: In the dark desert of Eastern ...
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: WadeH237]
      #5753133 - 03/24/13 01:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How can you disagree that imaging requires stricter conditions ? Your post even supports that position




*One* case supports a problem for imaging. And even in that case, it only applies if the laser happens to cross the object that I'm imaging. And even then, it doesn't ruin the image, just a single subexposure.

Let me put it another way.

At the star parties I attend, green lasers are prohibited, except for a pre-scheduled program put on by the star party. I have not seen any green laser use outside of this in attending about 40 events. Stray light events from car door opening, hitting the wrong switch on a flashlight, someone turning on a light in an RV,etc. are quite common. Each of them hurts visual observing, but none of them bother imaging.

As a visual user, I don't even want to stroll through the imaging area when dark. The stray light from equipment LEDs, laptop screens, reflected light from people's faces, etc. *always* kills my dark adaptation for about a half hour afterwards.

They provide an imaging area that is separate from visual areas at OSP, a star party that I regularly attend. 15 years ago, they did this to protect imagers. Now, it serves mainly to protect serious visual observers trying to make the most of the very dark skies there. It's funny that the signs in the imaging area still say "severe light restrictions", because it is obvious that there's more stray light there than anywhere else at the site (outside of the late night vendors).

So my answer is not theoretical. I see it at all the events that I attend.

What I'm dreading, is the adoption of all these touch screen devices for telescope control. All of them require a backlit screen with no protective red screen. As adoption increases, it's going to become impossible to do any serious observing at visual limits at a group event.

I'll also throw in that I've never lost a subexposure at a star party due to stray light.




I'm not so sure of that part, I can put my touchscreen phone in a thick ziploc bag, and still work the screen just fine though the bag. It seems like a dark red plastic bag would be enough?


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: DeanS]
      #5758087 - 03/26/13 12:17 PM

Quote:

.....
Many new imagers are pushing it a little with laptop monitors being too bright. Some don't realize that just night mode is not enough and a dark red plexi screen cover is a must. Even then the brightness should be turned down a bit. .....
Dean




I suppose that this area (laptops, etc) needs more detail in star party light control rules. That way “new imagers” have no excuse about violations….. assuming that is what the star party organizers want.


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: George N]
      #5758178 - 03/26/13 12:50 PM

Last year at the Cherry Springs Star Party one group set up those little solar garden lights (with red bulbs) around the perimeter of “their” area. They didn’t have ‘no trespassing’ signs, but ya got the message to ‘stay out’, reinforced by glaring looks at anyone walking thru, day or night. From what I saw, this group included about 10 people – with about 5 moderate-size imaging rigs. I did not see any visual observing. On occasion their “light fence” became distracting. I suppose that this is part of what one can expect at today’s large star parties. Perhaps people just don’t understand, or don’t bother to read the rules.

I personally think that if an observer wants the ultimate in light control, attending a large star party is a mistake. It is never going to be “your way” at a social event. The ultimate dark sky observing/imaging requires a private location, or going to public observing areas on an off period. Many are pretty empty during the week.


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okieav8rAdministrator
I'd rather be flying!
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Reged: 03/01/09

Loc: Oklahoma!
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: George N]
      #5758985 - 03/26/13 07:50 PM

Quote:

Last year at the Cherry Springs Star Party one group set up those little solar garden lights (with red bulbs) around the perimeter of “their” area. They didn’t have ‘no trespassing’ signs, but ya got the message to ‘stay out’, reinforced by glaring looks at anyone walking thru, day or night. From what I saw, this group included about 10 people – with about 5 moderate-size imaging rigs. I did not see any visual observing. On occasion their “light fence” became distracting. I suppose that this is part of what one can expect at today’s large star parties. Perhaps people just don’t understand, or don’t bother to read the rules.

I personally think that if an observer wants the ultimate in light control, attending a large star party is a mistake. It is never going to be “your way” at a social event. The ultimate dark sky observing/imaging requires a private location, or going to public observing areas on an off period. Many are pretty empty during the week.




I agree, when attending a large star party, you can't expect things to be perfect with regard to other attendee's lights, but if people will just use some common sense, and take reasonable precautions not to be a beacon in the night, everyone would get along and have a much better time.


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Ed Wiley
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5762742 - 03/28/13 05:14 PM

Re: Covers for computers. I use a computer tent sold by Astrogizmo. It even has a flap that allow use during the day by shielding the screen.

http://www.astrogizmos.com/computer.htm

Price was competitive. Naturally I also use a red screen.

Ed


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Zamboni
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/03/05

Loc: Colorado Springs
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: DarkSkys]
      #5762889 - 03/28/13 06:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How can you disagree that imaging requires stricter conditions ? Your post even supports that position




*One* case supports a problem for imaging. And even in that case, it only applies if the laser happens to cross the object that I'm imaging. And even then, it doesn't ruin the image, just a single subexposure.

Let me put it another way.

At the star parties I attend, green lasers are prohibited, except for a pre-scheduled program put on by the star party. I have not seen any green laser use outside of this in attending about 40 events. Stray light events from car door opening, hitting the wrong switch on a flashlight, someone turning on a light in an RV,etc. are quite common. Each of them hurts visual observing, but none of them bother imaging.

As a visual user, I don't even want to stroll through the imaging area when dark. The stray light from equipment LEDs, laptop screens, reflected light from people's faces, etc. *always* kills my dark adaptation for about a half hour afterwards.

They provide an imaging area that is separate from visual areas at OSP, a star party that I regularly attend. 15 years ago, they did this to protect imagers. Now, it serves mainly to protect serious visual observers trying to make the most of the very dark skies there. It's funny that the signs in the imaging area still say "severe light restrictions", because it is obvious that there's more stray light there than anywhere else at the site (outside of the late night vendors).

So my answer is not theoretical. I see it at all the events that I attend.

What I'm dreading, is the adoption of all these touch screen devices for telescope control. All of them require a backlit screen with no protective red screen. As adoption increases, it's going to become impossible to do any serious observing at visual limits at a group event.

I'll also throw in that I've never lost a subexposure at a star party due to stray light.




I'm not so sure of that part, I can put my touchscreen phone in a thick ziploc bag, and still work the screen just fine though the bag. It seems like a dark red plastic bag would be enough?




Using a red overlay does not significantly affect a touchscreen's performance, so there really is no reason a touchscreen device is necessarily going to hurt night vision. Are some people cheap/lazy/inconsiderate and don't bother doing that? Sure, just as there are people who unthinkingly use bright white light at star parties.

I use my iPhone regularly when observing for software like SkySafari, satellite flyover prediction, Clear Sky Clock, etc. I use these: http://www.astrogizmos.com/TransPVC.htm

Two layers are required to get a properly dim, red view. Touch sensitivity is reduced slightly, but not enough to be a hindrance. Several members of my club have these on iPads that they use for telescope control.

To say that touchscreen devices are going to destroy the hobby because they don't have red overlays out of the box is like saying that having a white light flashlight at home is going to ruin the hobby. Makes no sense whatsoever.


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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: Breech of lighting etiquette at star parties..... new [Re: Zamboni]
      #5763155 - 03/28/13 08:49 PM

Thanks for the link to red shield! I have Sky Safari on my iPad, but have not used it at a star party due to light emission. I'll give these a try.

And I also agree that if people mitigate the light by using something like this, it will address my concern. The trick now is to educate people to use them. I may buy extras, so that I can share them at a star party if needed.

-Wade


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