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Stacy
Star Partyer
*****

Reged: 09/15/02

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Stacy]
      #6087051 - 09/17/13 11:16 PM

Quote:

As the black of night fades to shades of grey, there is less brilliance in the impossibly distant stars to capture the imagination and interest of a youth obsessed with tiny, brilliant screens that are never further than arms reach.

Stacy




Some of you are so wrapped up in your own philosophy you missed my point entirely.

How can you be interested in astronomy if you have never seen stars? At my star party on Table Mountain this year we were visited by about 30 students from Tokyo. Many who had never seen stars. One by one I showed them Saturn and then M13. Their coments revealed, although incomprehensible to me through language were unmistakeably "turned on". Gasps and excited verbages revealed awakened minds. What about the millions of other young, brilliant minds in Tokyo who were not on Table Mountain that night? Who will awaken them in their light polluted environment.

The technology spin concerns a new phenomenon called the "Downward Child Syndrome" where in many countries like South Korea children are so addicted to their smart phones and texting and so-forth, they never look up. Add in the LP and it just compounds the problem. How could any of these people obtain an interest in stargazing? They don't even notice them.


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bluedandelion
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/17/07

Loc: Hazy Hollow, Western WA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Stacy]
      #6087138 - 09/17/13 11:58 PM

Stacy,

I remember the kids at Table Mountain.

I teach Astronomy 101 to the the phone obsessed generation. Last year I set up a scope on top of one of our college buildings in a red zone for LP. With about 25 or so students all we had time to look at was Saturn, Jupiter and a few of the brightest stars. One student said, "I'll never forget this." Another said the stars reminded him of diamonds. This leads me to believe that the younger generation has not been exposed to the night sky and that's why they are not interested.

I long for a power outage on a clear summer night so that more eyes will be opened to the wonders of the night sky.

Ajay

Edited by bluedandelion (09/17/13 11:59 PM)


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Stacy
Star Partyer
*****

Reged: 09/15/02

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: bluedandelion]
      #6087973 - 09/18/13 12:50 PM

Quote:

I long for a power outage on a clear summer night so that more eyes will be opened to the wonders of the night sky.

Ajay






That would be awesome Ajay!


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Alex McConahay
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/11/08

Loc: Moreno Valley, CA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Stacy]
      #6088020 - 09/18/13 01:15 PM

During the Northridge earthquake,Los Angeles emergency services were getting phone calls from concerned citizens about the lights in the sky....Turns out it was the Milky Way.

Alex


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bluedandelion
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/17/07

Loc: Hazy Hollow, Western WA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Alex McConahay]
      #6088814 - 09/18/13 08:34 PM

To the OP and to get back on topic:

I think you may have found your club, i.e., CN. I've met many CN'ers at spontaneously arranged star parties who don't belong to any other clubs. If you want a recommendation for a traditional one, why not post a request here? I am sure you'll get a lot responses. If you are in the Seattle/Puget Sound area, send me a PM and I'll send you some recommendations.

Ajay

Edited by bluedandelion (09/18/13 09:42 PM)


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Ian Robinson
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/29/09

Loc: 33S , 151E
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Philler]
      #6089259 - 09/19/13 12:23 AM

I started the local club when I was about 13 - 14 yrs old (my dad paid the print advertising, and I was helped in establishing it by a very nice lady who I met when she was doing an astronomy and telescope outreach (Mrs Towers had been doing this for several years and we became very good friends). Mrs Towers encouraged me greatly and inspired me to bight the bullet. 40 years later the club is still going though I've not been a member since the 1980s).

The club was very good and a great way of getting to know other astronomy enthusiasts in my local area and we rotated monthly to meet at each other's homes (tea and bikkies were a high light of the meeting and getting together after dark in our respective backyards to look through each other's telescopes and binoculars was a real treat, everyone had bigger scopes than me at that stage, one member had a 4" Unitron refractor on a home made GEM , some even had home made scopes that looked gigantic to me at the time - 12" newts).

Eventually the club grew too large to be meet informally at other's homes and we became affiliated with the local technical college where we permanently met and housed our growing library, we even had a book loan arrangement and some telescopes donated that were made available on loan to members.

Pretty soon the club was big enough that some of the adult members decided it needed a constition and a formal structure.

At this point political stuff started happening and cliques started forming, I stayed with the club for over 10 years but as life will have it, life got busier and busier for me and I grew away from being interested in being an astronomy club member, the cliquiness was offputting (seeing nOObs not being integrated and included they way they ought to be , I've seen the same kind of thing in other special interest activities and groups too ie square dance, ball room, fishing , it's the nature of the beast when you get a large group of people together, some with always think they are the elites and some will be snobs when it comes to "no-nothing-nOObs" , a club to lets this happen wont last long as more members become disenfranchised and upset and leave and some will even loose interest entirely in the hobby ).

My suggestion is if you are not happy with the local club, you have 3 options,
1) stop supporting it and go it alone, you don't need to be a club member to have a network of astronomy friends,
2) stop supporting it and start your own club (it's not that hard to do if 13 - 14 yr old boy can do it)
3) find another club nearby, but keep in mind you might encounter the same people there.

Best way to be accepted in a larger astronomy club is to become actively involved in some of their sections and observing programs and to offer to give presentations to the club and to contribute to the clubs news letter or magazine.


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David Knisely
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/19/04

Loc: southeastern Nebraska
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Philler]
      #6089275 - 09/19/13 12:41 AM

We see these posts every now and then. Even when clarified as saying, "most astronomy clubs are good", the posts do tend to cast an overall negative light on Astronomy clubs in general, and that is both inaccurate and unfortunate. True, there can be some "jerks" in clubs (with more of them in the larger clubs), and they can sometimes ruin the club experience for people occasionally. Misunderstandings can also happen in clubs, which can sour personal relationships and create a feeling of social ostracization. However, most of the clubs I have met or been associated with have treated members and guests quite well, so reports like this one tend to leave me shaking my head a little sometimes.

Philler (OP) mentions the following incident:

Quote:

There was this other area about 40 miles east of there that the club held public star parties occasionally at that seemed better than the one where their observatory was located. And I had even brought my scope and helped at a public star party there once. I wasn't sure that I could just go there on my own with my scope and set up and do my own observing without permission. So I decided to call the club president. And get this: He flew into a rage and told me in so many words that it was not the purpose of the club for us to just pursue our own observing hobby, but that the club's purpose with to educate and enlighten the public. I hung up on him and was ready to never be a part of this club again.




It kind of seems like maybe something relevant to the above account might be missing here. People generally don't fly off the handle when asked a simple question (particularly, club presidents, who generally have to be civil at the very least due to their position). Perhaps the site had already been scheduled for a group and would be unavailable for individual use that night. Maybe it was in the way the question was asked, or maybe the guy just had a bad day and was reacting in that manner. I found out the hard way that people (and the way they interact) are often a real problem for club presidents when I had one incident blow up in my face as president of our club a number of years ago. It was something of a misunderstanding of how an individual interacted with others verbally, and it got a little heated at a club meeting (which I never should have allowed to happen). The individual involved and I are now on friendly terms, but at the time, the incident threatened to tear the club apart (and a few people did leave). The incident caused me to decline nomination for another term a few months later, and I am not sure I ever want to face that again. Club presidents are not perfect, but somehow they have to muddle through the issues in a way that ruffles the least feathers. This can be hard to do, but I know very few club presidents who would yell at someone for just asking a simple question. I kind of have to wonder if there may be just a little more to it than that.


Quote:

As I said, I won't tell the name of my former club, but instead I will tell you that it's in the Kansas City area where I live. From that you could easily find out on the web the name of it along with other info on their site. At the time I was still a member, from about 1988 to 1998, it had I think about 250 to 300 members. I think now it has over 350. I don't think I ever saw even half of this 250 to 300.




There is only one club in the Kansas City area of that size, so yea, it wasn't hard to figure out what group is being talked about (and again, from what little I do know of them, I am a little puzzled by this posting). As for attendance, the number of club members who attend meetings regularly is usually nowhere near the full membership roster. Indeed, with our club (about 60 members), we are lucky to have 15 to 20 people at some of our regular meetings, although a few times, we have gotten to around 3/4 of our membership for special programs or some of our social events. Scheduling conflicts between people who are members (who also have "lives" outside of amateur astronomy) and our meeting nights probably account for most of our "losses" when it comes to attendance. I think that overall, probably between 1/5th to 1/3rd of actual dues-paying club members nationally regularly attend meetings in most clubs, so not seeing more than a fraction of them at meetings in a club of nearly 300 people is not all that surprising.


Quote:

I think they liked to hand out memberships to celebrities. They would get like a local TV weather forecaster to speak at a monthly meeting and give him a free membership. All past club presidents were lifetime members for free.




Nothing necessarily wrong with that (if the club can afford it monetarily that is). We don't give out our memberships generally, but a few of our long-term members who have contributed years of effort to the club and to the observatory have been formally recognized for their achievement via a formal full club vote to award them "lifetime" memberships. We have awarded some kids a year's free membership on occasion when they win one of our Astronomy Day door prizes or when they have done something academically worthy of recognition. We also have a lower cost student membership in the club to help encourage youth involvement in astronomy.


Quote:

I heard they even wheeled poor old Clyde Tombaugh into a meeting shortly before he passed away and gave him a membership. I don't imagine he was too impressed with them.




From what I understand, Tombaugh was a guest speaker at a Kansas City club meeting in June of 1988. If he was awarded a membership, that was a nice symbolic gesture of recognitions and thanks at least (and again, there is nothing all that wrong with that).

Quote:

Maybe that club president I mentioned should have scolded him about spending too much time looking for Pluto. And explained that the purpose of this club was to make sure all the Boy Scouts get to look through his scope and see the Coat Hanger, the flag on the Moon, and the Double Cluster, and not spend his time searching for another planet X. They even got David Levy to come so they could show off their club observatory and probably gave him a free membership too. They practically kissed the ground he walked on! Needless to say, I don't think Levy was impressed with their observatory or them. I'm sure they didn't dare tell him his real duty was helping at public star parties and not chasing down comets. My theory is that most of these paper members on their rolls just paid their dues or got it for free, but never got involved. But it's good advertising for the club to say, "we've got 300 plus members."




Ok, this response has a somewhat sour feel to it (and is very probably fairly speculative at the very least). I live around 180 miles from Kansas City, so I don't attend their regular meetings. However, from what I know of at least some of the members of that club who I have met at conventions and regional star parties over the years, the above statement is a little distorted in outlook to say the least. Those I met were friendly and pleasant to interact with. Indeed, as far as numbers are concerned, at the regional and national Astronomical League conventions held in Kansas City, I noted probably probably between 60 and 80 of the members of that club there, which is in-line with the earlier estimates about member attendance to club meetings or events. There has been little (if any) evidence provided here to show that they are "padding" their membership rosters with freebee memberships (the club must *pay* the Astronomical League for each member's League membership BTW). Again, all this kind of makes me think that at least something of this account may not have been brought forth fully. If someone has a problem with a club, fine, then they should definitely not be a part of it, which may be the best solution for all in the end. Clear skies to you.


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edwincjones
Close Enough
*****

Reged: 04/10/04

Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: kfiscus]
      #6089358 - 09/19/13 04:14 AM

Quote:

I would question the assertion that our hobby is in decline.




we all belong to a very active astronomy club-Cloudy Nights,
a change from getting out under the stars to getting in front of the computer,
a change in technology, but an astronomy club never the less

edj


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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
*****

Reged: 04/24/04

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: edwincjones]
      #6089369 - 09/19/13 04:45 AM

I am very lucky to be a long time member of the best astronomy club in this arm of the galaxy. The Saguaro Astronomy Club of Phoenix, Arizona. We start the meeting at 7:30, there is a small amount of business and then the astronomy starts at 8:00 PM--guaranteed.

I was the "Novice Group" leader for two decades and we did have some beginners that got educated about the sky and telescopes in that time.

We also have created as much as we could to help people trying to find their way around the sky. You just need to concentrate on what's important--enjoying the sky.

Don't get too hung up on the negative input and get out and have fun.

Clear skies to us all;
Steve Coe


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MikeBOKC
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/10/10

Loc: Oklahoma City, OK
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: stevecoe]
      #6089558 - 09/19/13 09:00 AM

You get out of an astronomy club what you put into it. Involvement is a key for me, whether serving in some leadership capacity or in just being there for meetings, gatherings and outreach events. Like any gathering of humans beyond one in number, there are going to be some folks you like a lot, many who are fine but not people you feel a need to get close to and a few who have some personality quirks you would just as soon avoid. On balance, having worked in a number of volunteer-driven organizations through the years, from Scouting to non-profits and community organizations, I have found astronomy club members to be, on balance, some of the nicest folks around.

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Zamboni]
      #6089613 - 09/19/13 09:50 AM

Quote:

The demographics in the hobby are skewing older and older every year. Membership decreases every year for astronomy clubs all around the country. Fewer and fewer high schools and colleges have astronomy clubs due to lack of interest. Attendance at national star parties is decreasing each year. If that isn't a decline, I don't know what is.

The Astronomical League magazine devoted two issues to the subject this year, and they're a quarterly!




I am sure that magazine sales, club memberships are on the decline but I have to believe those are not representative of a decline in the hobby itself but rather a shift away from the old traditional ways. The internet has changed the way the younger generations and many of the older generation communicate, how they meet, where they meet. Club attendance is in decline because clubs themselves are in decline, not the hobbies themselves.

Star Party attendance is also a problematic measure, an informal poll here on Cloudy Nights (a rather large club itself), indicated that most amateur astronomers observe by themselves or in very small groups. In the 20 plus years I have been observing representing thousands of nights out under the stars, I have attended only one actual star party that could have actually been tabulated.

From what I see, the hobby is going strong, all is well. Clubs and magazines, that's a different story.

Jon


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Lane
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/19/07

Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6090094 - 09/19/13 02:38 PM

I would disagree that this hobby is in decline, it seems to be just the opposite. More and more schools are adding astronomy classes and holding star parties. My friends kids are all doing this right now and they love it.

Our club holds a lot of star parties and attendance just keeps going up all the time. We are also getting more request now from schools to come hold star parties for their students.


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Lane]
      #6091492 - 09/20/13 10:42 AM

At last year's (Oct 2012) Kopernik Observatory AstroFest we did a discussion session on "health of astronomy clubs" with representatives from something like 8 to 10 clubs from the NY/NJ/PA area. As I remember it all reported being from a vibrant club that is growing or at least maintaining membership. On the other hand they all noted the 'graying' effect, but are still attracting some younger members. We plan on holding a similar 'discussion hour' again this year (see Star Parties forum for info).

Every club has it's unique personality and interests and there is a ebb and flow over time. I've been a member of a club that went from around a 100 members all they way down to maybe 5. In recent years it has rebounded to about 20 active members.

What I'd suggest is: if you believe your club should be doing something that it is not, volunteer to kick off that effort, but don't try to stop stuff you don't like..... just don't take part in that.

Last year I ran into the 2nd "club" at Cherry Springs Dark Sky Park that had a very simple agenda: they organized observing sessions as a group (about 20 people). Otherwise, no meetings, no "rules", etc. The folks from both groups seemed very happy with their arrangement.


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George N
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #6091526 - 09/20/13 11:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The demographics in the hobby are skewing older and older every year. Membership decreases every year for astronomy clubs all around the country. Fewer and fewer high schools and colleges have astronomy clubs due to lack of interest. Attendance at national star parties is decreasing each year. If that isn't a decline, I don't know what is.

The Astronomical League magazine devoted two issues to the subject this year, and they're a quarterly!




I am sure that magazine sales, club memberships are on the decline but I have to believe those are not representative of a decline in the hobby itself but rather a shift away from the old traditional ways. The internet has changed the way the younger generations and many of the older generation communicate, how they meet, where they meet. Club attendance is in decline because clubs themselves are in decline, not the hobbies themselves.

Star Party attendance is also a problematic measure, an informal poll here on Cloudy Nights (a rather large club itself), indicated that most amateur astronomers observe by themselves or in very small groups. In the 20 plus years I have been observing representing thousands of nights out under the stars, I have attended only one actual star party that could have actually been tabulated.

From what I see, the hobby is going strong, all is well. Clubs and magazines, that's a different story.

Jon




Magazines: One good friend is an editor on one of the 'big two' and has told me that their subscriptions and sales are actually increasing! My bet is that is true of the other one too.

Star Parties: I'm not sure about the smaller ones, but the big 2 or 3 that I attend are still full up. NEAF seems down in attendance these last 2 years, but there were still healthy numbers and I saw lots of boxes with expensive stuff going out into the parking lot.

It's only natural that there will be changes. I think that part of the 'graying' thing is related to how the hobby has changed, with the decline of amateur telescope making, but the rise of electronic imaging (and related). It seems that astro groups split into visual and imager who have little in common! Let's face it: imaging can cost big bucks and is likely to attract middle-age males with a scientific/engineering/medical background who no longer are interested in extreme skiing, etc. They are looking for a more sedate hobby that relates to their tech skills, and astro imaging fits right in.... but probably not for someone just starting a family and career. I think of 'the graying effect' as more 'the CCD effect' naturally bringing in new people at an older age that was true in the 'film age'.


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Skylook123
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/30/05

Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: George N]
      #6091627 - 09/20/13 12:10 PM

Just some empirical experience to throw into the mix. I am a member of two clubs: the Tucson Amateur Astronomy Association with approximately 375 members, and the Sonora Astronomical Society, centered down in Green Valley, AZ, much smaller but just as friendly. Both have components of the major aspects of amateur astronomy. Two to three times a year, TAAA teaches a three weekend course in basic astronomy, about 25 class hours, ending in a pot luck dinner and night under the sky for the entire club where a lot of different equipment is used, and help offered for the less experienced folks. We usually get 20 to 30 students at each of the class series.

We have many public outreach events, 50% or more of which I participate in, around 6 to ten a month. Our big hitters are Grand Canyon Star Party once each year, and Night Under The Stars at Catalina State Park, three times each year. At GCSP, we're approaching a quarter century of which I've been present for 11 years in a row and the coordinator for the last five years. GCSP has grown from about 70 astronomers and 700 visitors each of the eight nights, to over 110 volunteers and 1450 visitors each night. Our Catalina State Park efforts have grown from four or five astronomers and maybe 10 visitors to now hosting around 300 with twelve or more astronomer volunteers. At special events on the UofArizona Mall we have as many as fifty astronomers and many hundreds of visitors. I don't see a fall off in public interest, rather, a steadily increasing growth to the point that a couple of us have been asked over the last three years to put on an adult education introduction to astronomy by the University of Arizona's branch of the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute. Our 20 available slots usually fill within two hours of registration opening on line, the fastest full subscription of hundreds of course offerings each semester. And these are day time classes so they fill with senior citizens mostly.

When I lived in Chandler, AZ, I took part in a few Saguaro Astronomy Club and East Valley Astronomy Club events, and did 10 years in a row at the All Arizona Star Parties and Messier Marathons, and they were and are awesome groups to hang out with; Steve Dodder at Saguaro coordinates the North Rim segment of GCSP. Unfortunately, right now work and health issues prevent my travelling up to the recently moved site of the All Arizona events (old site was a forty five minute drive from home--THAT I could make!).

All of my almost 20 years experiences with astronomy clubs, here in Arizona including coordinating GCSP support from those in Kingman, Flagstaff, Prescott, Verde Valley, Sedona, and others, have been extremely positive. Maybe I've just been lucky!


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Zamboni
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/03/05

Loc: Colorado Springs
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Skylook123]
      #6092327 - 09/20/13 07:03 PM

Amusing side note: I used to be in a band with Steve Dodder's daughter.

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Ed Wiley
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Philler]
      #6094868 - 09/22/13 11:20 AM

Hummmmm -- I belong to a club in the Kansas City area. It has lots of members. I have no idea about the politics, living outside KC I don't attend meetings. But I do use the fantastic dark sky site, which is about 60 miles south of KC. During my time at the dark sky site and at our star parties I have never had a negative experience. All of the observers are friendly, open folks.

Ed


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Philler
sage


Reged: 07/15/13

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Ed Wiley]
      #6099748 - 09/25/13 03:48 AM

Like I already said in a previous reply on this thread, I'll just go with a clean slate and maybe give this club another try. Fair enough?

Edited by Philler (09/25/13 04:04 AM)


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Zamboni
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/03/05

Loc: Colorado Springs
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Philler]
      #6100113 - 09/25/13 10:50 AM

I do know that just 5 years can change the attitude of an Astronomy club. I've actually heard some horror stories about what mine was like in the 90s.

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Philler
sage


Reged: 07/15/13

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: my negative experience in an Astronomy club new [Re: Ed Wiley]
      #6102922 - 09/26/13 07:23 PM

Quote:

Hummmmm -- I belong to a club in the Kansas City area. It has lots of members. I have no idea about the politics, living outside KC I don't attend meetings. But I do use the fantastic dark sky site, which is about 60 miles south of KC. During my time at the dark sky site and at our star parties I have never had a negative experience. All of the observers are friendly, open folks.

Ed




Thanks Ed,
I did check out their web site and read about their dark sky site 60 miles south of KC. I didn't know until recently that they had acquired a really good dark sky site for members and guests.
I think I will go ahead and join (or re-join) this club.

Clear skies Ed. Hope we can run into each other under the stars sometime.


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