Telescope Reviews: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O.

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O.
#5322202 - 07/17/12 04:00 PM

APM dectied to start a small production run of highest quality maksutov Cassegrain 10"F/14.6 with 23 % Co.O .
We wil use quarz mirrors, with rear side polished
Each sets is certified by a Zygo report with 1719 wavefront p.t.v, 1750 wavefront RMS and 98.4 % Strehl.
Each Tube will be very light weight build by my expert matthias Wirth
We will start a first run of 5 scopes.

If we see a interest , we may start with same optical design as a 11" and possible as a 12" Maksutov Cassegrain.
The complete optical tube will be less heavy then any ever build 10" Maksutov cassegrain.

The Optical design will be made by Astro-Optik Philipp Keller, or Massimo Riccardi, we have not yet decited.
The Optics will be made exclusivley for us by INTES MICRO
The Quartz we will buy in USA

if you have a interest , contact me now

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Jeff B
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 12/30/06

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5322248 - 07/17/12 04:26 PM

I must say Markus, you have been coming out with some intensely interesting stuff lately.

Keep going!

Jeff

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Sgt
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 12/17/05

Loc: Under the southern horn of the...

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Jeff B]
#5322362 - 07/17/12 05:46 PM

I wonder if he just monitors the forums then puts out whatever's trending

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Sgt]
#5322425 - 07/17/12 06:20 PM

wait and come to NEAF 2013 :-), I dont make Jokes on such stuff

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ewave
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/16/09

Loc: northwest NJ

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5322735 - 07/17/12 09:50 PM

Markus

see you at NEAF 2013.

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GeneT
Ely Kid

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5322820 - 07/17/12 10:55 PM

Very interesting! Keep us updated.

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IDONTSEEIT
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/04/03

Loc: NYC

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: GeneT]
#5322837 - 07/17/12 11:08 PM

Is it f/4.6 or 14.6? Title says f/4.6, write-up says f/14.6

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: IDONTSEEIT]
#5323122 - 07/18/12 06:17 AM

f/14.6, sorry
:-)

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ASTERON
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: ISRAEL

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5323372 - 07/18/12 10:17 AM

can you give a guestimate of the cost ands weight of such OTA ?
Thxs

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: ASTERON]
#5323804 - 07/18/12 03:59 PM

a gues of weight yes, around 29 to 30 lbs maximum

Price no gues now. Maybe in 1,2 weeks

In any case I will do a run of 5 pc

here what I am going to do in any case :
- quarz optics of highest quality
- optical design by my own designers. INTES MICRO was already asking if we cannot use a excisting design, i told them, NO, for me it means I have to pay new testing glases and tools, but I am ok with that
- secondary focusing for fast back focuse change
- 2.5" Starlight feather touch focuser at the end
- bino viewer friendly without need of optical path corrector
- cooling fans at rear mirror
- cooling fans at side of tube with cented holes opposite
- vented meniscus cell
- ultra light weight alu tube construction
- ultrathin primary mirror baffle with holes to heavs very little mass for cool down
- primary mirror alignment
- secondary mirror alignment
- Matthis Wirth made mechanics

our goal: we want to build the best ever build 10" Mak ....tuff ? Maybe, so lt me surprise you.

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Howie Glatter
Vendor

Reged: 07/04/06

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5323938 - 07/18/12 05:59 PM

> - secondary focusing for fast back focuse change

Will the moving secondary be mounted from a hole in the corrector or will there be a spider? Motorized focusing?

Curious minds want to know

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BWAZ
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/21/05

Loc: CA

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Howie Glatter]
#5324039 - 07/18/12 07:33 PM

I believe Markus meant to say the secondary focusing is for coarse and quick focus change while the motorized focuser on the back is for the fine focus.

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Alan French
Night Owl

Reged: 01/28/05

Loc: Upstate NY

Re: 10"F/14.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: BWAZ]
#5324089 - 07/18/12 08:19 PM

I thought f/4.6 was not doable, especially with only a 23% obstruction.

Clear skies, Alan

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IDONTSEEIT
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/04/03

Loc: NYC

Re: 10"F/14.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Alan French]
#5324271 - 07/18/12 11:04 PM

I figured it was f/14.6, but with Markus, one never knows

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: BWAZ]
#5324529 - 07/19/12 07:23 AM

Hi BWAZ

Markus meant to say the secondary focusing is for coarse and quick focus change while the motorized focuser on the back is for the fine focus.

yes thats right. Such system does all you want to have for focusing. It allows us to make mirror cell and rear much less complicated and less heavy, less heavy means less material to cool down :-)

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5324750 - 07/19/12 10:35 AM

we design now a 254 m and 280 mm Version, get quotes and then make a decision :-)

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Benjamin B
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 06/21/04

Loc: Sweden

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5325418 - 07/19/12 04:54 PM

It sure sounds very interesting. I will follow this with great interest!

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jonbosley
professor emeritus

Reged: 10/19/05

Loc: Texas

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Benjamin B]
#5325440 - 07/19/12 05:06 PM

At F14.6 you are looking at a small market these days so I wouldn't bother with a 10" go straight to a 12" or larger if you really want to make one or two. I would recommend you put your design skills and resources into a F8 corrected cassigrain-quarz mirrors-very nice, much larger market interest.

Jon

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pbsastro
sage

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: jonbosley]
#5329865 - 07/22/12 02:21 PM

Quote:

At F14.6 you are looking at a small market these days so I wouldn't bother with a 10" go straight to a 12" or larger if you really want to make one or two. I would recommend you put your design skills and resources into a F8 corrected cassigrain-quarz mirrors-very nice, much larger market interest.

Jon

I am not on the market for a CAT right now (open tubes are totally out of the question), but...
I would prefer a faster scope (f/8 to f/10) with larger CO.
But I think the big key for success is cool-down time.
Roland said many times his Maks have a secret trick to make them cool much faster. I think even equivalent Aries Maks do not have this trick. That is why till now AP Maks have no competition.
Markus, do you know what this secret trick is, and what are your plans regarding cool-down?

But, thinking better, what the world needs is a visual-photo Ricardi-Honders at F/8. That would be something! THE dream scope if it includes the cooling fix.
An F/8 RH with cooling fix would take the world by storm. I think one day all mass-market CATs (Celestron, Meade, whoever) will al be like that. Now, there is a window period of many years with no one offering them. When it comes, I will be there!

Pedro

Edited by pbsastro (07/22/12 02:33 PM)

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: pbsastro]
#5329971 - 07/22/12 03:35 PM

Hi Pedro

Roland Christen knows Matthias and his work how he build telescopes and Roland called Matthias a Artist in building telescopes. I think thats one of the highest possible compliments

and yes we know the secrets.

Officina Stellare has many diameters of Riccardi Honders Astrographs.
If there would be the need on the market for another model, Officina Stellare would do it right away.

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Chris_H
Post Laureate

Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Norway

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5330300 - 07/22/12 07:38 PM

23%, does that include the secondary baffle? A 23% mirror doesn't mean squat if the total CO ends up at 40% with the baffle

How come you didn't go for a DK design instead (cooling wise)?

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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: pbsastro]
#5330645 - 07/22/12 11:55 PM

Quote:

But I think the big key for success is cool-down time.
Roland said many times his Maks have a secret trick to make them cool much faster. I think even equivalent Aries Maks do not have this trick. That is why till now AP Maks have no competition.

Pedro

During designing of these telescopes me and Roland exchanged by handred e-mails or more, discussing all the sides of scopes construction. So, there is no reason to think that Aries' Maks are different ideologically. They are quite similar. More so, the cooling system in Aries' Maks is somewhat more efficient and our scope cools a bit faster.

However, this is only a second main point of these Maks. The main one is optical design and optics performance.

Valery.

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Chris_H]
#5330805 - 07/23/12 03:24 AM

Hi Chris 23 % C.O. total yes, as Roland and Aries also have.

DK is a cheap way doing scopes, coma like F/5 newtonians, open tubes , spiders, dusty mirrors etc etc...we let others d such systems

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Chris_H
Post Laureate

Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Norway

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5331073 - 07/23/12 10:20 AM

Well the Mewlon seems to pull it off so it can't be that bad!

Wow, that sounds awesome! If you master the looooong cooldown problem we face here in the north, I might just have to add this to the list as well! Going to be an expensive year...

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Chris_H]
#5331451 - 07/23/12 02:35 PM

long cool down and after that a stable image, is far better then turbulences all night in a open Tube !!!!

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Astrojensen
Post Laureate

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5331510 - 07/23/12 03:02 PM

Quote:

long cool down and after that a stable image, is far better then turbulences all night in a open Tube !!!!

I have a carbon fiber C8. It never cools down and has turbulent images all night...!

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

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Chris_H
Post Laureate

Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Norway

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Astrojensen]
#5331660 - 07/23/12 04:30 PM

I hear you, Thomas. A "long cool down and after that a stable image" doesn't work when the darn thing NEVER cools down

My old 180MAK was like that - and this is a 10"!

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what you come up with Markus!

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Astrojensen
Post Laureate

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Chris_H]
#5332536 - 07/24/12 04:04 AM

There's no doubt the feat can be pulled off, making a 10" mak with relatively fast cooldown, that is. A-P did it, as far as all the reviews go. I am not sure I've seen a review of any Aries maksutovs.

It is a mystery to me why a $1000 C8 doesn't come with a cooling fan, while a $400 8" dobsonian does. That just doesn't make sense.

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Astrojensen]
#5332629 - 07/24/12 07:41 AM

Hi Thomas

is your 8" scope build like a modern fast cool down telescope should be build ? No, everything is done on it that it never cools down :-)

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EddWen
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 04/26/08

Loc: Here or There

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5333014 - 07/24/12 12:21 PM Attachment (35 downloads)

Markus and Matthias recently built me a 400mm f/10 Rumak.

It has an open back tube with 3 fans. The tube has venting ports just behind the meniscus. The Astro-Sital mirror is polished on the back side for good heat transfer.

The scope has an internal heater for the meniscus which I've not had to use because it is dry in Arizona.

Cool down has not been a problem. I roll of the roof of the observatory when the Sun sets, point the scope up, switch on the fans and go have supper. An hour or so later, the scope is ready to play.

Some of this is due to our location in the high country of central Arizona. We have a rapid drop from daytime temperatures until about 9:30 – 10:00 pm. The rest of the night has a rather mild decline in air temperature. Also, the inside temperature of the observatory does not reach the outside air temperature as it is insulated.

When I considered getting the scope, I originally planned for either air-conditioning the observatory to keep it near night time temperatures, or building a mirror cooling system using Peltier devices to cool it more rapidly to ambient conditions. So far, I haven't done either. I may do the latter just for fun, as I think it cool.

I will make a thread about the scope when I have a chance. Too many hobbies, although retired.

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Astrojensen
Post Laureate

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5333223 - 07/24/12 02:39 PM

Quote:

is your 8" scope build like a modern fast cool down telescope should be build ? No, everything is done on it that it never cools down :-)

Precisely my point.

Why do they insist on doing it the wrong way? Haven't they learned anything in the last 40 years? I myself have thought of asking someone to machine a new tube for the optics, as the optics themselves are very good on this particular C8. It is very sharp and bright, but all the tube seeing almost always limit its performance. On those rare evenings when the seeing is perfect and the temperature stable and the tube is thermally stable, I've been able to use 800x on it on double stars with no image breakdown and well over 1000x on planetary nebulae.

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

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contedracula
member

Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Naples, Italy - Sarasota FL

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5420541 - 09/14/12 08:20 AM

Hello Markus,
have you good news about the project?

Seems to be a RR of Planetary Mirror Telecope, can you tell me the progress?

Thanks
Gianluca

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Sarkikos
Postmaster

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: contedracula]
#5420612 - 09/14/12 09:19 AM

I wonder how this would compare to my 10" f/4.8 Newt which is already running at 23% CO?

Mike

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Sarkikos
Postmaster

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5420617 - 09/14/12 09:24 AM

A maximum weight of only 29 to 30 lbs for a 10" Mak is very impressive.

My 10" Newt solid-tube OTA is about 39 lbs with rings and balancing weights.

Mike

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Sarkikos
Postmaster

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Astrojensen]
#5420628 - 09/14/12 09:32 AM

Thomas,

Quote:

Why do they insist on doing it the wrong way? Haven't they learned anything in the last 40 years? I myself have thought of asking someone to machine a new tube for the optics, as the optics themselves are very good on this particular C8. It is very sharp and bright, but all the tube seeing almost always limit its performance.

I have a 6" Rumak. It takes longer to acclimate than my 10" Newt which does have a fan for the primary mirror. I suppose I could take the Rumak apart and drill holes along the meniscus for venting. But I'm reluctant to disassemble a Mak. I've never done it.

My 90mm Mak has a flippable secondary. Not a good design IMO, but it does allow me to keep one of the ports open for quicker cool-down and thermal adjustment during the night. I've covered the open port with screen to keep the bugs out. Now, how difficult would it be to design Maks with large vent holes with protective screening at optimum locations to allow acclimation, and have slidable covers built-in that can completely cover the holes if needed?

However, I take my Newts apart all the time for upgrades and tinkering. Easy sneezy. I've already drilled vent holes above the upper edge of the primary in my 8" f/6 Dob and installed a baffle above the holes to help direct rising warm air out of the vent holes. I'm thinking about doing the same thing for my 10" f/4.8. Nothing to it.

Mike

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contedracula
member

Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Naples, Italy - Sarasota FL

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

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[Re: Sarkikos]
#5421454 - 09/14/12 07:32 PM

I've C14HD and becames in cool down about 3 hours!!!!
The MN78 with one rear fan, only 15 minutes

Gianluca

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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: contedracula]
#5422133 - 09/15/12 10:41 AM

Quote:

I've C14HD and becames in cool down about 3 hours!!!!
The MN78 with one rear fan, only 15 minutes

Gianluca

There are fan solutions for the Edge HD scopes.

Edited by BRisley (09/15/12 05:27 PM)

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Sarkikos
Postmaster

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

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[Re: EFT]
#5422156 - 09/15/12 10:53 AM

Pretty much what I said should be done with these Maks. But it should be done at the factory!

Mike

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contedracula
member

Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Naples, Italy - Sarasota FL

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

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[Re: Sarkikos]
#5422227 - 09/15/12 11:41 AM

@Ed
I got it! ;-)

You have a PM

Thanks
Gianluca

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Sarkikos
Postmaster

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

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[Re: contedracula]
#5422400 - 09/15/12 01:52 PM

Yep, that's the ticket!

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: Sarkikos]
#5423426 - 09/16/12 09:26 AM

Finaly, my designer got some time to design this project, will be something we starting soon, but delivery in 2013 only

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contedracula
member

Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Naples, Italy - Sarasota FL

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

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[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5423642 - 09/16/12 12:05 PM

Markus,
have you estimated price for this Planets Killer ?

For the Planetary Observing activity ( not Photos with Camera ) you prefer this one or Intes Micro MakNewton 8/10" with yours and Matthias improvments?

Thanks
Gianluca

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: contedracula]
#5425275 - 09/17/12 11:55 AM

Hi Gianluca

first we do design, then we get prices , then we calculate final cost, we will have to pay all tooling for glas and mechanics, so it will be NOT cheap, I may do 4 or 5 pc total for beginning and see how they selling.

the other question I cannot answere till I have them side by side

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contedracula
member

Reged: 10/11/11

Loc: Naples, Italy - Sarasota FL

Re: 10"F/4.6 MakCass with 23% C.O. new

new

[Re: APM M.Ludes]
#5535198 - 11/23/12 10:26 AM

Hello Markus,
News?

Thanks
Gianluca

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