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jmcdonald
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/01/05
Posts: 1503
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Great article. I'd propose the reverse parable that in some ways more closely matches my own experience.
Alfred tries to learn the sky on his own. Gets bored with the few things he can see fairly well (jupiter, saturn, the moon). He can't even find the ring (doesn't know how small it is) and is disappointed with the views of the few dso's he can find. Telescope sits in the basement.
Steve, thru CN, learns about how to 'see' objects. He learns about sketching and logging to improve his knowledge and skill. He learns about lunar geography and finds books to increase his enjoyment of lunar observation. He learns how to appreciate the view thru the eyepiece (as opposed to hubble photos). He gets great lists of targets each month to try and fine. Eventually he trades his first scope for a used 10" DOB for very small outlay and continues the hobby.
-------------------- Jerel
Discovery 12.5" modified truss DOB
Orion 100mm f/6 achromat
Garret 15x70 LW Binoculars
22-T4,13-T6
IDA Membership
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wprince
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/26/06
Posts: 533
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think I was a Steve in the beginning - a "perfectionist" as you say, but now I'm becoming more of an Alfred. I've become to realize that no matter how good my equipment is, I'm usually limited by seeing/weather, or lack of time. Now I try to cherish what time I do have to observe, enjoy the equipment I have and try to learn all I can.
btw, Despite what everyone says, I bet there are many more Steve's than Alfred's. Compare the number of posts in the Equipment forums vs. the Observing forums!
-------------------- Wade
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spaceydee
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 15439
Loc: Where the Kittens Are
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that's because the skies are way too cloudy!!!
-------------------- Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST
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wprince
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/26/06
Posts: 533
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Good point. I admit I have my share of posts in the Equipment forums, but very few in the Observing forums...
-------------------- Wade
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KaStern
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 572
Loc: Dortmund
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Hi Allister,
great stuff
Best regards, Karsten
-------------------- 200/1200mm ATM Dobson
150/1800mm Yolo
113/450mm Newt
80/1470mm Achromat
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ForgottenMObject
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/11/04
Posts: 3586
Loc: Maryland, US
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Hmmm... that makes me think of another possibility - that people become more like Steve because of lousy weather/viewing conditions. After long periods of clouds or dealing with light pollution, haze, etc. one starts to think, "Well, if I just buy this one accessory/widget/scope/eyepiece, then I'll have want I want."
It results in the sad outcome of an astronomy swapping scopes, eyepieces, etc. for tiny performance changes while stuck under clouds, haze, or NELM 4.0 skies. I guess the desire to do SOMETHING leads to this type of thing simply because there's often not a lot we can do about the bigger picture (the weather, local light pollution, etc.)
-------------------- Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces
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Mark Costello
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/08/05
Posts: 1037
Loc: Matthews, NC, USA
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FWIW, I think that the people using expensive scopes to take wonderful astrophotographs are "Alfreds." Thanks to you all for showing them to us. My personal opinion is that it's as good as spending time in any art museum.
I would like to say I've seen real nice photos taken with not so expensive equipment (e.g., Orion ED80's and ED100's) and a few nice ones taken with some achros (ST80s, Vixen 80mmF5s, TS 127mmF6.5).
Enjoying the views with my 4" achro,
-------------------- Mark Costello
Matthews, NC
Wife, son, three daughters, two dogs, ... and
Souped up & Tuned Burgess 102mm refractor on a CG5 & Celestron 7X35's
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Jay_Bird
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 690
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
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Steve and Alfred are straw men showing contrasting approaches to hobby (and life) over their first year of astronomy. Now lots of us are identifying with one or the other, and defending that one, and their past and future.
It’s not black and white, we are each a little closer to either Steve or Alfred at different times and circumstances.
To revisit the pilot analogy – as written, the story might have two guys deciding to learn to fly and buying a used plane after basic lessons: Alfred invested $100,000 and logged 400 hours his first year, including two week-long cross-country flights in his 85 HP, 100 MPH 2-seater, which he knows intimately and flies VFR by gauge, sight, sound and feel. After a year, Steve has traded up to his third plane, a new supercharged, 250 MPH retractable gear job that he thinks may finally be good enough for him to start flying more. He’s logged 90 hours and has almost a million dollars invested this first year of flying. He may even travel to a neighboring state, now that his plane will be good enough… So I read this as not about how they fly their first year but whether they got lost on the route to learning to fly.
IF Steve’s objective has ALWAYS been buying the ultimate scope THEN he may be approaching happiness after just one year and half a dozen scopes (or he may be approaching bankruptcy, spousal reckoning, and therapy "no scope is perfect, no scope is perfect, there is no optical panacea").
Alfred’s objective seems to be learning astronomy and he’s still plugging away at that just one year later, apparently happy with his new hobby opening up the universe. How well did their actions fit and accomplish their objective?
Did either of them lose sight of their objective since they were buying that first scope?
Alistair – can you share more of your intentions for this story, or will a CN vendor have the Cliff’s Notes?
-------------------- 'these things stand like stone - kindness in another's troubles, courage in your own' Gordon
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jrbarnett
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 2858
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Fun read. Thanks for posting it.
I think the two examples represent only two of several common amateur astronomer "archetypes".
In addition to the Steves and the Alfred's of the world there are "Daves", "Paulas" and "Cindys".
The Daves start out like the Alfreds "communing" with the heavens, putting the experience of observing first before the equipment, but then morph into astronomers who are akin to ludites. You know, the "if a simple achromatic doublet was good enough for Charles Messier, it's good enough for me" crowd. At star parties the Daves are typically the people who insist on playing and sharing their "space music" through the night for the ambience. I'm all for space music, mind you. I just have the courtesy to use headphones.
The Cindys of the world start out somehwat like Steves, learning everything they can about optics, quality, technique and the like, spending, evaluating critically, selling, buying new, repeating the cycle over and over again, but unlike Steves they don't get frustrated and give up. Instead they achieve a state of quasi-Nirvana reserved for the imagers among us, and sicover that they really do NEED that $11,000 f/6 oil spaced flourite triplet APO. Without engaing in a little anally-retentive Steve-ish behavior early on, Cindy couldn't learn (1) that she needed that uber-scope to pursue her newfound love of astro-photography, and (2) we would all be the poorer for it as we would miss out on her superior astro-photography handiwork that makes the university observatory curators hang their heads in disgrace by comparison.
Then there are the Paulas. They are the saddest of our lot. They are the ones who transit through Steve-ism into a purgatory-esque state of reading and posting endlessly on astronomy forums. This activity becomes their sole nexus to the hobby - by the time the clear steady night falls, they are too tired to set up and observe, having expended much energy and emotion during the day debating minutae with similar Paulas.
Paradoxically, many of us are simultaneosly Alfreds, Steves, Daves, Paulas and Cindys to some extent. I for one travel in an orbit that causes me to periodically conjunct with each of these archetypes for a time. The key to my happiness and an amateur astronomer has been never wedding myself permanently to any of these archetypes, and being open to seeing and sharing in the merits and weaknesses of each.
The worst thing anyone can ever do in any life pursuit (transending the hobby of astronomy) is close one's mind. Except that it is always okay to despise the Daves of the world for blarring Vangelis at star parties --- if it disturbs you, just ask me to turn down my boom box. 
One final thought in defense of Steve: 20 years ago there was a huge gulf between the junk at the low end and the premium equipment at the high end. If you wanted a color-free refractor for astro-photography, for example, you had no choice but to drop some serious coinage of the realm. The number of amateurs with the financial oomph to absorb that kind of punishment was very small. You wanted a reflector over 10", call your bank - it was going to cost you about 50% of your annual income and require a crane to move. Steve-ism was a syndrome more isolated in the upper eschelons of astro-expenditure. It wasn't as obvious of a condition then because by economic necessity there were fewer sufferers.
But the world has changed. Now there are color-free apochromats for the rest of us (like me; check my siggie - very little shi-shi-glass there) that don't break the bank. There are go-deep 12" Dobs that cost half the price of a new Lazy Boy recliner, making Markarian's chain a topic of dinner table conversation with the kids rather than something only whispered about in the science wings of some ivy-covered institution or other.
With the ever-widening abundance of better, more objectively performant stuff for less cost, more and more of us are able to experiment, and experiment we do. Just check out the vigorous used gear economy evidenced by CN's classified and other astro-classified sites on the web. When we aren't satisfied that we've attained the level of perfection dictated by our moral compass, we re-sell. While at a given point in time, there may be a lot of greenbacks tied up in gear, it's pretty easy to stay balance-sheet even. That is, if you wanted to or needed to, you could liquidate the lot on the ready used market and recoup a large portion of your investment.
Given this environment, I can't entirely blame Steve for wanting the best he can get for his intended use and budget given that he has such a wide range of options and choices. As long as Steve doesn't stay Steve too long and eventually starts the migration toward the Cindy or Alfred poles, it's all good to me.
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- "The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be. Our feeblest contemplations of the Cosmos stir us — there is a tingling in the spine, a catch in the voice, a faint sensation, as if a distant memory, of falling from a height. We know we are approaching the greatest of mysteries." - Carl Sagan
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Cosmosphil
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/04/05
Posts: 1030
Loc: So. California
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Its really very simple. Do you use the telescope as a means to explore and increase your passion for the night sky or do you use the night sky as means to a passion for a telescope? There could, for many of us, be a mixture of the two I think leaning a little to one side or the other based on where we are in the hobby through the years. As to the question of fear I think for some there is so much ego invested into purchasing "stuff". Our cars for example are not just comfortable, safe, vehicles for transportation. They must be some kind of referendum of our worth in this world. Look at how crazy the advertising has become nowadays. Marketers today want to create this fantasy world selling everthing from cereal to home cleaning supplies!! It would seem Steve is more interested in having the telescope reflect his status in the hobby rather than starlight. That can be sad and a little compulsive. I think as you go along in this hobby after a few decades you simply enjoy the experience of being out under the sky, with friends, in nature, relaxing from the stresses of the day. We all enjoy our scopes and "stuff" but they are only a part of why most get into and stay in this hobby. I also know a few Steve types. As Don mentions, they look at the same 10 to 15 things every year but they have the latest gear and technology. And you know what? That is just fine by me. They are out there with me under the same gorgeous sky doing what ever makes them happy! I get to check out all their toys and go back to my simple scope and burn up another Abell group or obscure planetary. Seems to work just fine for both sides of the coin.
-------------------- Phil Agins
15" Discovery TD
10" Discovery PDHQ
5.7" Ceravolo Mak-Newt HD145
TeleVue-102 / TEC 140 (on order)
Vixen ED80Sf
Coronado PST / Lunt LS-50FHA/B1200
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Bob W6PU
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 2197
Loc: Springer-N.E.NM
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Not only is this a fun thread, some of you guys have a real talent for writing, as well as reasoning. I'm really enjoying reading this!
Cheers! Bob in NM
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Siderea
Astronomess
   
Reged: 11/21/05
Posts: 1705
Loc: Novato
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Thank you for writing this, Allister. A little homemade copylens scope and a Nortons Atlas have kept me out in the wonderous dark for the last 18 years.. I just last week got the first "manufactured" scope I have ever bought, a 60mm 1960s classic Swift 839 refractor. Your article spoke to the simple joy of being happy with what you have, and enjoying the wonders of the sky. -- A clear intelligent voice speaks above all the equipement, imagining discussion and endless aperture comparison. A pleasure to read your work, sir! Thank you ! Carol Widger
-------------------- Clear skies and gingerbread!
lc Carol
60mm Telescope Club
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asaint
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 2031
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I'm glad to hear the feedback that many have enjoyed the tale. I'm even happier to read the responses on this thread. As Bob as pointed out, the sheer talent in reasoning and writing in the responses in this thread have left me floored. Please, don't stop now.
Now, let me share a little about myself. Astronomy is not my only hobby. I also collect boxing equipment. I have 4 sets of gloves, 3 sets of shoes, 7 speed bags (don't ask) and 12 pairs of boxing shorts. I've been collecting and comparing these boxing items over the past 4 years. It's very important for a boxer to use the right equipment. Imperfect equipment can lead to injuries or a misstep in the ring.
Right now I'm comparing training methods. Training methods are the foundation on which everything is built upon. This is a complex area which will take me quite a while to sort through. Once finished with this reasearch, I'll begin my training.
It's been a great 4 years in this sport. I'm very happy I'm a boxer.
Allister
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Jim Nelson
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 718
Loc: Hanover, New Hampshire
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I think the best thing that happened to me for my observing was not having much money. As a teenager, I only had a cheap 60mm refractor - I knew it wasn't a great piece of equipment (and I don't recommend this particular route to anyone), but I also knew my parents couldn't afford a "real" scope. So I just used the heck out of it as best I could. And I got up to watch meteor showers. I made pinhole cameras to see the sun. I read and read and read (free at the local library) about all this stuff.
When I got back into the hobby, I was a graduate student, a terrible condition characterized by very little spare money among other symptoms. But I splurged and got a 6inch dob - after reading and reading and reading - which is still my main scope and probably will be for at least another year or two, until I feel I'm a little more settled.
Now, I'm still equipment-obsessed. If I ever strike the lottery, believe me, there are going to be some happy vendors of astronomical equipment out there. But I really don't see the key difference between the two astronomers being that one cares about equipment and the other doesn't - it's that one is truly informed, and the other isn't. Or, rather, one is educating himself, while the other is collecting large amounts of information.
Or, alternatively, that the second astronomer is more concerned about his equipment *relative to other equipment*, rather than being concerned about understanding *his* equipment.
Oh, I suppose I could draw this out a while longer, but I'll stop here, even without a satisfying, punchy conclusion.
-------------------- Orion XT6
Orion Starblast
Swift 8x42 Ultra Lite
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Olivier Biot
Amused
   
Reged: 04/25/05
Posts: 14564
Loc: 51°N (Belgium)
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Now that was an interesting and funny read! Personally I fear I must have bits of both regarding astronomy (and maybe other hobbies too).
Everyone has fun in a different way. Some can only really get the ultimate kick by digging deeply into the "mechanics" without driving the "darn car" but it's a matter of taste.
Personally I have been into astronomy for a very long time but only very recently into observing. And even then, it's already months ago that I didn't observe with my scope. However whenever I can see the night sky, I look up at the stars, planets, Moon, constellations and never miss a partial solar eclipse. Weird, huh?!?
Cheers!
Olivier
-------------------- Tal-200K (#199) with JMI NGF-Mini2M focuser on GEM3 • Astro-Tech AT80ED on Orion Sirius EQ-G with EQDIR & home made wireless EQDIRECT • Celestron Regal LX 8x42 & 10x42 • Helios 15x70
ATM 14" f/5 (designing mirror cell and filter wheel/focuser) • ATM 10" f/6 Portable Truss (polishing) • ATM 10" f/25 Dall-Kirkham (primary: polishing, secondary: #120 grit)
AstroForecast
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spaceydee
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 15439
Loc: Where the Kittens Are
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Jim, I can remember what grad school was like. I didn't even think about splurging on a 6" dob then, but I can say that it would have been the best scope ever, just to have one in that circumstance.
-------------------- Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST
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Jim Nelson
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 718
Loc: Hanover, New Hampshire
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Jim, I can remember what grad school was like.
I give more than a little credit to that scope for ensuring I finished grad school. A well-needed sanity break. And heck, it wasn't like I was getting any sleep anyway!
-------------------- Orion XT6
Orion Starblast
Swift 8x42 Ultra Lite
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Bob W6PU
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 2197
Loc: Springer-N.E.NM
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My hobby of fifty years, besides astronomy, is Amateur Radio operating!
Now if you really want to study the psychological profiles of a bunch of obsessed nuts, you need to take a look at the average Ham Radio Operator! You know, the ones who mess up your TVs and telephones!
Bob...Ham Radio Call W6PU, NM
Edited by Bob W6PU (08/12/06 04:31 PM)
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asaint
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 2031
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Hey Bob,
My wife was into short wave radio for a while. There are a whole lot of interesting radio stations out there.
I just spoke with my friend Lenny. He's a bodybuilder. He reads Flex magazine, is current on the cutting edge supplements and is a whiz at giving out advice on the bodybuilding forums. Many people don't guess that Lenny is a bodybuilder since he doesn't life weights.
Allister
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Bob W6PU
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 2197
Loc: Springer-N.E.NM
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Allister, intelligence is a curse! It drives us to seek a whole bunch of interesting persuits to keep ourselves from going crazy with boredom! 
Bob in NM
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