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CESDewar
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Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim...
      #1093581 - 08/14/06 02:04 AM

Comet Barnard 177P was recently "recovered" after a hiatus of over 100 years and had been declared a "binocular object" on several websites with a magnitude of 8-9 being bandied about. I had looked briefly for it a few days ago in my 18x50 Canon binos but saw nothing. So tonight with clear skies unexpectedly appearing after several days of rain, I decided to make it the sole objective for the evening to find this comet with my Saturn III's (39x100) which are ideal for this kind of task. There are reports on some other forums about this comet and the difficulties in finding it, but since it had been declared a binocular object, I thought I should post my observations on this forum.

Humidity was drippingly high at 88%, but the skies were pretty dark, measuring 21.30 on my skymeter which is pretty good even if not the darkest skies I've experienced here at Gorilla Haven (I've seen 21.50 on occasion). I'm very bad at estimating NELM because my naked eye observing is really only done with one eye as my other eye is corrected for near vision so I can get by without having to have reading glasses handy at all times. But these were clearly 6th+ magnitude skies - the milky way was very prominent, and with it being 2 days to last quarter, the moon was not going to interfere in the early part of the evening.

I looked first at Starry Nights to see what it said about this comet. It identified it as an object at magnitude 13.77 with an angular size of 0.062 arc seconds. Well hopefully this was all wrong as otherwise, there would be no point in going out to look for it!

Other websites have listed its magnitude at 8-9 - I've seen 8.4 bandied around, but that struck me as optimistic - at least for this evening's observation. Magnitude 8.4 spread over a 10' region (which would be big for this comet) would be much brighter - I've caught M74 in my 18x50 binos when it was at the Zenith, and that's usually tagged as a 9.8mag object, some 10' in size.

I decided I would try and find it, and if successful, watch it as the moon started to rise to determine the exact point at which it disappeared and make a judgement of the dimmest star still visible as that event occurred as that would at least provide some objective measurement of its apparent brightness.

Starry Nights WAS bang on with the location of Comet Barnard and a quick star hop from Sigma Herculis to HIP82012 and then to HIP82355 put it only 30' away and in the field of view. My eyes were not really dark adapted yet, but I looked around anyway and was pretty sure I saw a fuzzy blob, but decided to wait another 10-15 minutes.

Going back, the comet was now readily visible , but it was DIM. I estimated the size of the hazy blob to be around 6-8 arc minutes - larger than I was expecting. Because it was so faint, it was hard to discern any shape, but no elongation was apparent. Nearby (less than 12' away) was a trio of stars which Starry Night listed at mag 10.78, 10.93 and 11.43 - all readily visible. Some 15 minutes later, my eyes were close to fully dark-adapted and I decided this was a good time to see what the dimmest star was that I could catch. I drew a quick map of the very faintest stars I could see around the comet and then went back to Starry Nights to identify them. I was quite surprised to see that I had caught TYC3083-1369-1 at mag 12.09 but even more surprised to see that I had caught USNO J1651368+434206 at magnitude 13.05 - the first time I've ever been able to confirm seeing a 13th magnitude star in the Saturn III's (assuming of course that Starry Nights was correct in its information). There was another "star" just 3' 27" away in the direction of the comet but Starry Nights did not identify it even though it showed a hazy blob at that position (sometimes just an uncataloged star or perhaps a very small, faint galaxy?). I've regularly seen stars around 12.5 in the Saturn III's, but never anything this faint.

It was now about 10:45pm and I decided to wait for the moon to start rising and monitor the skies. They started to lighten rapidly - my Skymeter going down to 21.00 and then 20.90. The comet was still visible, but was fading fast into the background. I continued to monitor it as the sky lightened and just before 11:30pm I decided it really had completely disappeared. The milky way was still visible over most of the sky and at that point the faintest star I could see was about 11.5 - the 12th magnitude star had disappeared some 10 minutes earlier and three stars around 11.4 which I had noted earlier were now all at the borderline of visibility. The trio of stars that had been quite easily seen earlier was now very difficult to find.

So my observation was that Barnard is still one difficult object to find and not something I would describe as a "binocular object" due to the very low surface brightness. Maybe in superdark 7th+ mag skies, one could pick it out with 18x50's, but it would not be easy. Unless it brightens unexpectedly, it's really going to take 100mm binos to catch this object (80mm's in very dark skies would probably be the absolute limit). I had originally thought this would be a relatively easy catch, but after seeing how dim it actually was, I was appreciative of having such dark skies this evening for this search.

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edwincjones
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1093642 - 08/14/06 06:20 AM

I tried saturday night with my 20x100 miyauchis without success. I will try again when the moon is out of the way.

edj

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EdZModerator
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: edwincjones]
      #1093675 - 08/14/06 07:57 AM

Stuart,

a very good measure of what people can expect.

edz

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Phillip Creed
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1093775 - 08/14/06 09:49 AM

Steuart,

Your observation of 177P is consistent with several others:

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/icq/CometMags.html#0177P

Nice work in fishing out a 13.1-mag star! Ever think about hunting for Pluto from the Desert Southwest with those things?

Just out of curiousity, did you try to make an estimate of its integrated brightness?

Ed, if we assume a brightness of, say, 8.5-mag and a diameter of 8', would the following calculation of surface brightness (if there was such a thing for comets) be correct:

Sb = 8.5 + 2.5*log(8'*8'*pi/4),
Sb = 8.5 * 2.5*log(50.27 sq. arc min)
Sb = 12.75

?

Clear Skies,
Phil

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Eclipstarvor
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #1095448 - 08/15/06 08:25 AM

I tried also to find Comet 177P last night (8/14/06), believing that it was between 8.5 and 9th magnitude. I saw no trace of it All I saw was M13,M92,NGC 6210 and the 11th magnitude star just above it. There was moonlight, so I will probably have to wait for New Moon before attempting to see this comet again.

--------------------
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Glassthrower
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Eclipstarvor]
      #1095458 - 08/15/06 08:31 AM

Stuart -

Thanks for sharing your comet report. I like to live vicariously through the big glass of others!

Thanks for the tip on the comet too. Now you have several of us ready to grab our 25x100's and make our own attempts at bagging this faint comet.

Sounds like it's time for a trip to a dark site.

Clear dark skies...

MikeG

--------------------
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CESDewar
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Eclipstarvor]
      #1095586 - 08/15/06 10:11 AM

Quote:

I tried also to find Comet 177P last night (8/14/06), believing that it was between 8.5 and 9th magnitude. I saw no trace of it



I found it again on the night of the 14th, but it was more difficult than the night before. My sky meter was measuring 21.25 - so it was about as dark (around NELM 6), but the transparency was not as good (night before was just after a dust-clearing rain). Best I could do star-wise was 12th magnitude and that was a stretch. It was so faint that if you had just shown me the starfield and asked me what I was looking at, I probably would not have noticed it - only because I knew precisely where it was could I see it - using all the tricks such as moving the scope around to see if something in the background moved with it. I think it's more helpful to think of this as an 11th magnitude object. If you can't see any mid 11th mag stars, I don't think you're going to be able to see this comet. Definitely try it before the moon starts to light up the sky as you need all the help you can get on this one!

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EdZModerator
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1102550 - 08/19/06 07:37 AM

I found this comet last night
Aug 18, 11:30 PM EDT
located in Hercules at approx RA16h52m, +48n

I saw it as approx one third the size of M13 and much fainter. Also fainter and smaller than M92. Basically round like a small globular. Had a slight condensation making center a little brighter, edges quite diffuse. Averted vision Not needed.

edz

observed with Oberwerk 25x100

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Edited by EdZ (08/19/06 10:23 AM)


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Glassthrower
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: EdZ]
      #1102657 - 08/19/06 09:29 AM

EdZ -

Would you care to make a rough estimate of the visual magnitude of the comet?

CESDewar or anyone -

Is this comet getting brighter or dimmer?

Clear dark skies...

MikeG

--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.



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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Glassthrower]
      #1102685 - 08/19/06 10:01 AM

Compared to objects I viewed last night, I would say it was similar in brightness to M26 but smaller and similar in brightness to M57, but a little larger.

edz

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btschumy
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: EdZ]
      #1102687 - 08/19/06 10:04 AM

Edz,

What instrument did you use to observe it?

I'l be checking it out this evening if he clouds cooperate.

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Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: btschumy]
      #1102707 - 08/19/06 10:23 AM

OOPPS! Oberwerk 25x100.

edited post

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edwincjones
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: EdZ]
      #1102800 - 08/19/06 11:24 AM

Internet says Mag 8, but with clouds and moon I am still looking.

edj

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CESDewar
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: EdZ]
      #1103673 - 08/19/06 11:17 PM

Quote:

Compared to objects I viewed last night, I would say it was similar in brightness to M26 but smaller and similar in brightness to M57, but a little larger.



Well that is definitely very interesting as that is a lot brighter than what I was seeing by at least a magntitude (M57 is an easy object in my Saturn III's, including clearly seeing the ring-shape, whereas the nights I was observing, this was a really faint object). How good were the skies that night? I'm definitely going to look for this again on the next clear night. In looking at the observing notes on this comet, I also see an unusually wide disparity in the brightness that people are recording. Maybe the comet is rotating slowly and has an irregular surface .

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Rich V.
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1103768 - 08/20/06 01:23 AM

I set up the Unimount/ La Fuma/ 16x70s to get comfortable tonight. Just came in from looking at 177P; it took a few minutes to ID the local starfield but found it about 2° NE of NGC6229. I double checked my chart and am certain I saw it.

177P is much larger than GC NGC6229 but not as bright; it really appeared as a diffuse fuzzy cloud with no particular bright core at all in the 16x70s, about the same apparent size as M27 though of course, much dimmer.

I will look again tomorrow night to document it's movement.

Not much to look at but at least I got the ID!

Before taking the bins in for the night, I turned the chair around to spend a bit of time on the Summer Triangle. Despite the earlier haze, the skies were very nice tonight and the Cygnus area was wonderful. The North American Neb. (NGC7000) stood out well tonight as did the eastern Veil (6995/6992). All in all, a good way to spend a summer evening!

Rich V

--------------------
Binoculars:
33-150x100 Saturn III, 16x70FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 E2, 7x35 E, 8x30 E2, 7x26 Custom, 8x23AS Diplomat, 8x23 Travelite
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Edited by Rich V. (08/20/06 02:50 AM)


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EdZModerator
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1103966 - 08/20/06 07:50 AM

Quote:

that is a lot brighter than what I was seeing




Take those as a rough measure Stuart. But the night was excellent.

BTW, I did not identify gc 6229. But I wonder if it would be seen as anything other than starlike, as it is described by others as being very small, less than an arcmin in dia even in large scopes. I remember noting several times that I saw an object about a degree to the NW that would also momentarily appear diffuse, but then would seemingly resolve to two very faint points. During my observation, with respect to comet Barnard, this would have been the position of 6229 and it's tiny pair of close faint stars.

edz

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Rich V.
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: EdZ]
      #1104118 - 08/20/06 10:58 AM

Quote:



BTW, I did not identify gc 6229. But I wonder if it would be seen as anything other than starlike, as it is described by others as being very small, less than an arcmin in dia even in large scopes. I remember noting several times that I saw an object about a degree to the NW that would also momentarily appear diffuse, but then would seemingly resolve to two very faint points. During my observation, with respect to comet Barnard, this would have been the position of 6229 and it's tiny pair of close faint stars.

edz




Edz, CDC shows 6229 as being 3.8'x3.8' and mag 9.4; it forms a equilateral triangle with two mag 8ish stars. I would think it would be an easy target in 100mm bins! It is discernable as a GC (not stellar) even with 16x70s, though it is about the smallest/dimmest GC I've seen directly in binoculars.

Rich V

--------------------
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33-150x100 Saturn III, 16x70FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 E2, 7x35 E, 8x30 E2, 7x26 Custom, 8x23AS Diplomat, 8x23 Travelite
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btschumy
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1104359 - 08/20/06 01:35 PM

Not a binocular observation, but I did get to see Barnard last night in my TEC 140.

Reports indicate that it is 8th magnitude but somewhat hard to see as there is no central condensation. Pointed my TEC 140 north of the keystone in the area where it was plotted by Starry Night. With just a bit of sweeping I found a very tenuous glow. I had heard the coma was smaller than M13, but it looked maybe 50% bigger to me. A tough 8th magnitude if it was indeed that. I later looked at M33, the Triangulum Galaxy, and it looked very similar to the comet as far a surface brightness although the M33 was of course larger.

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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1104452 - 08/20/06 02:45 PM

Quote:

Edz, CDC shows 6229 as being 3.8'x3.8' and mag 9.4; it forms a equilateral triangle with two mag 8ish stars. I would think it would be an easy target in 100mm bins! It is discernable as a GC (not stellar) even with 16x70s, though it is about the smallest/dimmest GC I've seen directly in binoculars.

Rich V




Brian Skiff and Chris Luginbuhl, in their outstanding resource "Observing Handbook and Catalogue of Deep Sky Objects", describe gc 6229 as "small and faint in 150mm. High magnification with a 250mm shows a 50 arcsecond diameter glow. It is a small circular 2 arcmin glow in a 30cm.... no resolution.." Observations in L&S were made under skies that ranged from mag 6.5 to mag 7.0.

Kepple and Sanner in the NSOG seem to agree, in an 8/10" scope "it is an unresolved 1 arcmin diameter glow that is slightly brighter at its center.

Just like CDC, both of the above resources list it as 4.5 arcmin dia with Mv = 9.4, but as always, that doesn't really tell you anything about how it appears.

edz

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Rich V.
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: EdZ]
      #1104564 - 08/20/06 03:45 PM

I have to agree that 6229 isn't much to look at in a scope; it is unresolved in my 235mm scope as well, just a fuzzy ball. I'm not surprised most folks feel the same.

What does surprise me is just how well it stands out when viewed through binoculars in approx. mag 6 skies. On numerous occasions I have viewed it directly with 16x70s as it is one of my usual GC targets in Hercules. How well it shows up is a good indicator of my sky conditions; last night was particularly good, being near zenith this time of year certainly helped as well.

Binoculars seem to excel on some faint objects I have trouble with through scopes; I would think this one would be easy in binoculars larger than 70mm. (At least from my yard!) 177P seemed to be about as bright as 6229, just spread out over a larger area. Averted vision helped.

Rich V

--------------------
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33-150x100 Saturn III, 16x70FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 E2, 7x35 E, 8x30 E2, 7x26 Custom, 8x23AS Diplomat, 8x23 Travelite
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Phillip Creed
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1105283 - 08/20/06 11:28 PM

I just saw Comet 177P Barnard with the 25x100s. The night here was VERY transparent, with a NLM of around 5.3 to 5.4. Not bad for Canton, OH (pop. 80,000). The comet was large and just a little too diffuse for me to really get a good magnitude estimate on it.
The comet's surface brightness is disappointingly low. I did nab NGC 7006 and just barely saw the nebulosity of the eastern arc of the Veil Nebula in the Obies.

Clear Skies,
Phil

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Rich V.
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #1105776 - 08/21/06 11:17 AM

Went out again last night (8/20) to compare with Sat. night; the sky seemed brighter and less transparent than Saturday. Definitely not as good viewing conditions.

NGC 6229 faded in and out of view; it required averted vision to hold steady. 177P was just barely visible less than 1° N from it's position on Sat. It was close to the mag 6.5 star HR 6306. VERY faint in the 16x70s; there are times I wish I had 100mm bins!

Rich V

--------------------
Binoculars:
33-150x100 Saturn III, 16x70FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 E2, 7x35 E, 8x30 E2, 7x26 Custom, 8x23AS Diplomat, 8x23 Travelite
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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1106253 - 08/21/06 03:44 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

With all this talk of 6229 (small and somewhat dim) I decided to see where this puppy is. It's way out there at 99,100 light-years away:

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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: btschumy]
      #1106277 - 08/21/06 03:55 PM

Those "M13" screen shots are pretty neat Bill.

edz

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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: btschumy]
      #1106337 - 08/21/06 04:31 PM

Wow, Bill, I had no idea 6229 was a galactic diameter away! No wonder it resists being resolved.

My kids liked the Hercules GC tour-- M13 (papa), M92 (mama) and NGC6229 (baby). For no other reason particularly, I've had a liking for 6229!

Thanks for the heads-up!

Rich V

--------------------
Binoculars:
33-150x100 Saturn III, 16x70FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 E2, 7x35 E, 8x30 E2, 7x26 Custom, 8x23AS Diplomat, 8x23 Travelite
Scopes:
C9.25, 6" f8 reflector, SV80S


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Re: Looking for Comet Barnard 177P - Dim... new [Re: Rich V.]
      #1110128 - 08/23/06 02:45 PM

I snuck a peak at Comet Barnard on Monday night from SE Ohio with the 25x100s. I saw the marvel of a...featureless oval. There was only a little condensation; just enough to prevent its appearance from being uniform.

I'd estimate it to be around 9th magnitude, but I couldn't make a firm estimate. I had the skies to do it under (ZNLM ~ 7), but 25x100 is overkill. Magnitude estimations are best made with the least powerful instrument necessary to see the object. From this sky, a pair of 40mm+ glasses would have done it. Coma diameter was about 10'.

Clear Skies,
Phil

--------------------
"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"

Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****


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