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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
I'd be interested to understand you how determine the size of the elongatd star at the edge of the field?
By keeping a double star of known separtion in the same field of view or at least near the field of view so I could pan back to it as a reference measure. In this case I used the stars in the head of Draco, chosing a star that would end up near the edge of field of view while at the same time I could also see Nu Draco which is a 62 arcsec double. The spread on the distorted star images was almost exactly the same as the spread in Nu Draco.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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More on Limiting Magnitude
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Observing session side-by side with Fujinon 16x70 and
Garrett Gemini 20x80 masked to 20x70 and Anttler Skysweeper 20x80.
previuos notes
***From previous posts***
Quote:
My sky before and after the readings was mag 5.0.
The Ultra 15x70 spotted two different stars of mag 10.83 and 10.84, but could not see 10.93 after numerous tries. Mag 9.8 to mag 10 stars were seen constant.
The Fujinon 16x70 saw the mag 10.84 star and also saw a mag 10.93 star.
The Garrett 20x70 easily saw mag 10.84 and also spotted a 10.95 star. Persistent tries also netted mag 11.02 several times. Mag 10.4 stars were seen readily.***
naked eye magnitude only mag 5.4, Milky Way faintly visible.
The Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 saw 10.83, 10.84, 10.93, 10.95 11.02 and 11.04.
Stars of mag 10.4 were seen steady and 10.6 seen most of the time.
Mag 11.05 could not be seen.
The Oberwerk v2003 15x70 could only see deepest stars of mag 10.7 and 10.83. None ever seen above 10.9.
The Garrett 20x70 could not see beyond mag 11.02 and 11.04, not even 11.05.
9-21-06
Last night's session was under pretty good skies. Again mag 5.4 naked eye with two bands of the Milky Way faintly visible at zenith. Cr399 was naked eye. Two different mag 5.4 stars were seen, but mag 5.6 could not be seen.
Anttler Skysweeper 20x80 (operates at 18.5x80)
saw mag 10.52 and 10.56 within the first few minutes of observing, not adapted.
readily spotted mag 10.8, 10.6, 10.84
faintest stars seen mag 10.95, 11.00, 11.02 and 11.05 (these all an hour later)
no see 10.96, 11.04 or 11.08. 11.05 seen only once.
Garrett Gemini 20x80 (masked to 20x70)
readily spotted mag 10.84, 10.95, 11.02
faintest stars seen mag 10.96, 11.00, 11.05 and 11.08
no see 11.04, 11.10, 11.15
Fujinon 16x70
readily seen 10.8, 10.84 and 10.83
faintest seen 10.95, 10.96, 11.00, 11.02
no see 11.04, 11.05, 11.08
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70
readily seen 10.8,10.83, 10.84
faintest seen 10.95, 10.96, 11.00, 11.02, 11.08
no see 11.04 or 11.05
None of these binoculars could see the star I have labeled 11.04. It could be slightly fainter, or spectrum makes it more difficult? The mag 10.96 star (seen only few times) was more difficult than the mag 11.02 star which was seen sometimes for periods of 5-6 seconds at a time.
The GO Gemini masked to 20x70 was not seeing stars of mag 11.10 or 11.15.
The only two binoculars that saw 11.08 were the Obewerk Ultra and the GO 20x70.
The Anttler saw (once)the 11.05 star. Only other to see that was the GO20x70.
Neither the Fujinon nor the Ultra saw mag 11.04 or 11.05.
The Ultra glimpsed the mag 11.08 star more than once.
All stars fainter than mag 10.6 were averted vision only, although some of them, mag 10.83, 10.84, could be seen most of the time. I didn't bother listing the mag 10.5 and 10.4 stars, as all of those were seen fairly constant.
Stars mag 10.95 and fainter were seen maybe only 10% of the time at best. The mag 11.05 and 11.08 stars were seen maybe only 2 seconds at a time.
Given the sizes, the Anttler 18.5x80 should have been able to see the same as the Garrett 20x70. Both of those should have been able to see about 0.2 to 0.3 magnitudes deeper than the Fujinon or the Oberwerk Ultra. However, the Fujinon and the Ultra held position right at or near the deepest magnitudes seen.
The Oberwerk Ultra has a crispness to the contrast that seems to allow faint light points to pop into view. I ended the evening with some other observations.
All 4 binoculars could see portions of the North America nebula. The Fujinon appeared to provide the best contrast between the fairly bright background and the faint nebula.
Open cluster NGC 7789 in Cas is many very faint stars and is often seen as just a spot of glow. Very good dark nights with clean air allow seeing more. About a week ago I was observing this cluster with my 150mm refractor. Using a 27mm Panoptic for 44x150, I counted 85 faint and very faint averted vision stars. Last night, although they were too dense to count, I suspected seeing about 20 resolved stars with the Garrett 20x70. The Anttler 20x80 could only see a suspected 10-15 stars. Both the Fujinon 16x70 and the Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 showed an estimated 10-15 stars resolved.
As far as Limiting Magnitude, the Oberwerk Ultra holds right up to the mark reached by the Fujinon 16x70 and the GO masked to 20x70mm.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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starramus
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1124
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Darn that 11.08 sighting almost makes me want to buy a pair of the Ultras, but the better contrast of the Fujinon on the North American Nebula will make me spend the extra $250. I will try my luck on a second pair of the Fujinons at the end of the month. May the god of optics smile on me.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Conditions last night were a repeat of the previous night. I would say identical. So I tested a few more binoculars.
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 side-by side with Burgess 20x80 LW and Oberwerk v2003 15x70. Also, WO Megrez 80 SD II with 14mm Radain for 36x80
9-22-06 Again mag 5.4 naked eye with two bands of the Milky Way faintly visible at zenith. Cr399 was naked eye. Two different mag 5.4 stars were seen, but mag 5.6 could not be seen.
Burgess LW 20x80 readily spotted mag 10.83, 10.84 faintest stars seen mag 10.84, 10.95, 11.00, 11.02 and 11.05 no see 11.04 or 11.08.
Oberwerk v2003 15x70 readily spotted mag 10.52 and 10.56 faintest stars seen mag 10.6, 10.83, 10.84 no see 10.8 and 10.95
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 readily seen 10.6, 10.8, 10.83, 10.84 faintest seen 11.00, 11.02, 11.05 no see 10.95, 11.04 or 11.08
Once again, none of these binoculars could see the star I have labeled 11.04. I'll need to check this label. The only two binoculars that saw 11.08 were the Obewerk Ultra and the GO 20x70. The Burgess would not focus as precisely as either Oberwerk. It did see to mag 11.05, but that was equalled the prvious night by the Anttler 18.5x80 and the Gemini 20x70.
For comparison tonight I brought out the Megrez 80. Also, I wanted to check some of the other stars I'd been looking for. Yses they are there. Here's what I could see in the Megrez at 36x.
Megrez 80 SD II with 14mm Radian 36x80 readily seen 10.83, 10.84, 10.95. 11.02 faintest seen 11.04, 11.05, 11.08, 11.53, 11.63, 11.71, 11.74 no see 11.65, 11.75, 11.84, 11.85, 11.87, 11.89 or 11.91
All stars fainter than mag 10.6 were averted vision only in binoculars. In the Megrez, I could look right at 11.02., but mag 11.5 was defintely averted.
I used these all on NGC 7789 in Cas. I suspected seeing about 8-10 resolved stars with the Burgess 20x80 and the Obie v2003 15x70. The Burgess and Obie 2003 were about equal on this cluster. The Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 showed a nicer image than both of these.
After all that I move around a bit with the Ultras to catch a few more sights. M31 was beautiful. M32 was easy and M110 was a faint glow. The arms of M31 grew with averted vision and I would guess it's extent was about 2°. Then early this moring, I had some very nice views of the trapezium seen split all 4, M78 and M1 both fairly bright and M35, M37, M36, M38. I easily spotted stars of mag 10.5 to 10.7 in M45 without much effort. A very nice night and morning.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Stephonon
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/28/05
Posts: 1873
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Is there any place where the enormous amount of information in this thread and in other technical-oriented threads about the Ultra binos is or will be condensed into a single more easily digestable mortal human readable document?
-------------------- Steve H --- Dobs: Saxon/SW 10" f/4.7, GSO 8" f/6, custom truss 8" f/4 | Intes MK-65 (6" Mak) + EQ | binos: Pentax PCF 8x40, AOE 10x50MX Ultra, AOE 12x60.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Almost every formal CN Report that I have written starts off as posts in this forum. At some point in the future, I will formalize a complete written review, similar to the others you can find in the CN reports. I have not yet completed gathering information relative to such a review, therefore it would be premature to write it. Patience, my dear man. We'll get there. In the meantime, everything I know about this binocular is here for the picking.
edz
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14992
Loc: Kuiper Belt
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Quote:
...more easily digestable mortal human readable document...
There are no mere mortals in this forum. We are all immortal binocular geeks who will never grow old and we'll never die. When the time comes, we just slowly slip out of collimation.
Here is a "more easily digestable mortal human readable" version of this thread, summed up in two sentences :
"The Obie Ultra 15x70 is the closest thing in the middle price-point of the market to the Fujinon 16x70 and other glasses that are considered premium. It's not as good as the Fujinon, nor is it a 'Fuji killer', but it's as close as one is going to get without buying Japanese or European glass."
Did I sum that up correctly, or did waaaay over-simplify? (I hate to try and paraphrase EdZ for sake of screwing it up....)
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Specializing in exotic and rare meteorite falls.
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yagon
sage
Reged: 01/23/06
Posts: 204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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excellent summary glassthrower - that's all i need to know!
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Stephonon
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/28/05
Posts: 1873
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Almost every formal CN Report that I have written starts off as posts in this forum. At some point in the future, I will formalize a complete written review, similar to the others you can find in the CN reports. I have not yet completed gathering information relative to such a review, therefore it would be premature to write it. Patience, my dear man. We'll get there. In the meantime, everything I know about this binocular is here for the picking.
Thanks Edz! 
and thanks for the highly condensed summary Mike!
-------------------- Steve H --- Dobs: Saxon/SW 10" f/4.7, GSO 8" f/6, custom truss 8" f/4 | Intes MK-65 (6" Mak) + EQ | binos: Pentax PCF 8x40, AOE 10x50MX Ultra, AOE 12x60.
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14992
Loc: Kuiper Belt
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Quote:
and thanks for the highly condensed summary Mike!
Don't quote me on that! 
I'm in the market for a pair of these binos, so I am biased!
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Specializing in exotic and rare meteorite falls.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12781
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I noticed this during my viewing session this morning.
I was focusing on the Trapezium. The Ultras clearly separated the four components of the Trap. I must admit the two closest could easily have been still touching, but because one is slightly brighter, it was easy to see those as two and not one. With a closest components at 8.7", that about the best on-axis resolution I've seen. But this is more about the rest of the field of view.
At about 50%-60% out in the fov are seen the bright stars at the bottom of the sword, and there is a double star at that location. It's a 36" double. At this point out from center, these are already showing some distortion of the point image, but not real bad. The double is still easily seen.
Refocusing on that double (without moving the image in the filed of view), so in this case refocusing on the image at 50%-60% out from center, shows that nearly all of the distortion in the point image can be removed. (Of course, when you do that, the image in the center is thrown out of focus, so the Trap now looks like one blob). That indicates curvature. Curvature is the only aberration that can be focused out. In some instruments curvature is suppressed by a field flattener lens. What we see here in the Ultra is that curvature is present in the lens and it creates about 20 arcseconds of distortion in the point image at a location about 50% to 60% out from center.
I rarely ever refocus my binoculars. Once I'm focused for precise images at the center of field, I leave it alone. Curvature is an aberration that can be focused out, but really, how many would focus it out. Most would just repoint the binocular to center the object of interest and allow whatever is going on in the outer field to just take place.
Out past that point, a few other things start to come into play. Now please keep in mind the variety of aberrations causing image distrotions in the Ultra is not really bad at all. I'm just making some attempt to identify which aberrations are present.
In the outer edges of the field of the Ultra, coma begins to present itself. Stars begin to appear with a brighter point towards the center with a small flared fan shape towards the outer edge. If you could see a ray trace from a single star of all the rays of light formed by the objective, you would see most of the points all hit the same spot. That's the bright point towards the center. But then, some of the rays formed from the outer edges of the objective lens begin to miss the bright spot and get spread out in a fan shape. This results in the classic comet shape. This is fairly typical in binoculars. Seldom do we find a binocular that does not have some coma present. In the Ultra it fairly well controlled, but it is present. It cannot be focused out.
Also in the outer field of the Ultra, we begin to see astigmatism. Astigmatism begins to spread the star point image out in an elongated shape. If coma were not present the star images would look like long lines, generally running parallel to the field stop, sort of like little sections of arcs of a circle. You can tell if it is astigmatism by racking focus in and out past the point of best focus. If the orientation of the "line" flips 90°, it's astigmatism. This also is not uncommon in binoculars. It is present in the Ultra. When astigmatism is combined with coma, the comatic fan gets elongated to the classic seagull, the wings grow longer. Astigmatism cannot be focused out.
I believe I noted in an earlier post that the combined aberrations show the extreme off-axis star image is bloated to about 1 arcminute, not bad at all.
It would be very difficult to tell, but with the presentation of the three aberrations noted above, I did not see any spherical aberration. Maybe just a little. When I focused out the curvature, the image at 50-60% was not as fine as the on-axis precisely focused image, so this could be a little SA. But if so, it is totally overwhelmed by the other aberrations.
So, what's this all mean. Well I've already stated the outer field correction in the Ultra is pretty darned good. This is not a binocular that is suffering from serious aberrations. I'm just taking the time to identify what aberrations are present and about how much they seem to be affecting the image.
Those that want to read into this the fact that aberrations are being reported should watch soon for my observation report from the past several nights. This morning for the first time I can definitively state that I was able to see IC 342. That is a face-on galaxy that, IIRC, has a surface brightness of about Sb mag15.0. Not too shabby at all.
edz
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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2781
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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congratulations on bagging IC 342, Ed!
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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