sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hiya,
I've been looking into getting a telescope. This will be my first scope but I have used a borrowed ETX a far bit and of course my binoculars a fair bit.
I'm a photographer and have lots of lovely high end canon gear. I was just wondering if I could maybe get some recommendations with astrophotography in mind. I'd prefer to not use dedicated CCD imagers but would like to use my cameras and lenses as I know them back to front and have seen great results from them by trawling the web.
So far from reading countless beginner guides and lots of web pages, I'm kinda leaning towards the meade lx200 range, either a 8" or a 10" - probably the 10.
Another option would be the celestron 11".
I'm aware all these are v.expensive but I don't want to buy a 4" or 6" and then later on wish that I had bought bigger - I live "in the sticks" in Australia and have nice dark skies and a massive garage in my backyard where I can leave the telescope permanently assembled and roll it out when needed. I will take it in the car very occasionally but this would not be common. I have a wagon and 4wd for this.
I'd be very interested in comments from those who know this stuff a lot better than me as to ;
- if the above scopes are quite good for what I want
- if a different kind would be better - i.e. not a schmidt cassegrain.
The camera to attach would be a Canon 5D.
cheers and many thanks for any info.
Gav
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16" LB
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ZachK
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 667
Loc: Israel
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if you want to shoot film and use the stuff you already have there is a lot you can do, and for not much money. First of all go check out the film forum here on cloudy nights, there is a lot there.
First of all do not get a schimidt-cass on a fork mount. It costs a lot and has a very long focal length (around 2000mm or more) which means that your tracking has to be very acurate. Unlike in visual observing Apature is not the most important thing, F# and focal length are much more so.
A better option would be a 80mm apo refractor on an equitorial mount. The basic idea of piggy back photography is that you take your camera and mount it on top of the telescope and shoot threw the camera's own lens. The telescope is used to guide the camera so that it stays on one part of the sky. You *MUST* have an equitorial mount for this a fork mount in alt-az mode will cause the field of view to rotate.
There are a bunch of 80mm apo's with a decent equitorial mount for under $1000 right now. And if you want to spend less you can go as simple as buying a eq-1 mount with motor for about $100(US) and putting the camera on it directly.
First step go read the film forum!
Also if you are shooting film having the right film is key, there is a thread over on the film section about this.
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Zach Kessin
Yesha Israel
Meade ETX 127 Mak-Cass
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Sinar F 4x5 view camera
Rolliflex Camera 80mm F2.8
Pentax K-1000 Camera 35,50 and 60--300mm zoom
3 kids, Large cat, small dog
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Sorry mate I am using digital. But I expect the same rules apply to some extent.
I guess what you are saying is get a average/reasonable scope and piggyback my slr on it. This would be neat in itself but I would like to look through the scope as well and have a fair whack of aperture to play with as well, as well as attaching the camera dirctly to the scope when I'm experienced enough to deal with the v.long focal length.
Or am I speaking rubbish?  
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16" LB
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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just an addon to my original post, would a meade LXD75 10" schmidt newtonian be a good choice for astrophotog as well?
thanks
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16" LB
Edited by sejanus (09/28/06 02:39 PM)
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Talstarone
Vendor (Inner Planetary Products)
Reged: 09/12/06
Posts: 7665
Loc: Benson, North Carolina
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The Meade LXD75 10in Scmidt-Newt would be a decent choice for deep sky astrophotography. It would not be very good for lunar and planetary imaging due to the focal ratio. The only drawback with the mount on the LXD75 is its tracking capabilities. If you are planning on tacking truly long deep sky exposures you will have to guide it either electronically or manually to offset the periodic tracking error. Overall for the price it is a good scope, but I would go for a Smichdt-Cass before I went with a Schmidt-Newt for astrophotography. This is strictly my opinion and others who know more then I may or may not disagree with it.
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Todd C.
Celestron NexStar 4SE(102mm F/13)Maksutov-Cass
Baader Hyperion 8MM
SA Sterling Plossl 25MM
GSO 3-Element APO Barlow 2.5X's
www.innerplanetaryproducts.com
Meteorites and More....
"Outer Space at Down to Earth Prices"
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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hi talstarone,
is the periodic tracking error you refer to specific to the meade? i.e. would a celestron C10-NGT not have the same issue?
cheers
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16" LB
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ZachK
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 667
Loc: Israel
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digital has some plusses and some minuses, Of course if you already have the cameras thats a major plus. (And for example thats the reason I went with film, someone gave me a Pentax K-1000 and a rolleiflex). Digital cameras can be more noisy over a log exposure, but they are also more sensative and more linear in their response (or at least they can be, it depends on the camera). The other disadvantage is that the chip on most digital cameras is much smaller than a 35mm slide (never mind a 120 format slide).
Of course there are some big plusses to digital too. For one thing you can take a large number of short exposures and stack them, in which case you can tack out some amount of tracking error in software. I would still recomend a shorter focal length scope to start with, and also go read the photography and imaging fora, there are a lot of really smart people there who know quite a lot.
The other thing is astrophotography requires a bit of a learning curve, its going to take some time to develop the skills, so keep at it and make sure you have fun!
Oh and post pictures for us when you have them.
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Zach Kessin
Yesha Israel
Meade ETX 127 Mak-Cass
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Sinar F 4x5 view camera
Rolliflex Camera 80mm F2.8
Pentax K-1000 Camera 35,50 and 60--300mm zoom
3 kids, Large cat, small dog
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hi Zachk,
thanks for the reply. I'll have a go read of the digital forum. Just a quick note for your interest, the camera I am using the Canon 5D is a FF chip i.e. the sensor is the same size as a 35mm negative.
cheers
Quote:
digital has some plusses and some minuses, Of course if you already have the cameras thats a major plus. (And for example thats the reason I went with film, someone gave me a Pentax K-1000 and a rolleiflex). Digital cameras can be more noisy over a log exposure, but they are also more sensative and more linear in their response (or at least they can be, it depends on the camera). The other disadvantage is that the chip on most digital cameras is much smaller than a 35mm slide (never mind a 120 format slide).
Of course there are some big plusses to digital too. For one thing you can take a large number of short exposures and stack them, in which case you can tack out some amount of tracking error in software. I would still recomend a shorter focal length scope to start with, and also go read the photography and imaging fora, there are a lot of really smart people there who know quite a lot.
The other thing is astrophotography requires a bit of a learning curve, its going to take some time to develop the skills, so keep at it and make sure you have fun!
Oh and post pictures for us when you have them.
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16" LB
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Talstarone
Vendor (Inner Planetary Products)
Reged: 09/12/06
Posts: 7665
Loc: Benson, North Carolina
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Both scopes will have some periodic tracking errors. I know the Celestron has a built in program in its drive system to adjust for the periodic error and will make the tracking more accuretae. This takes several nights of use and learning where the tracking error begins and ends and then having the electronics adjust for it. The LXD75 I cannot honestly answer either way but I do believe it has PEC as well. PEC is not a magical cure-all it is more of a band-aid fix but it does help quite a bit.
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Todd C.
Celestron NexStar 4SE(102mm F/13)Maksutov-Cass
Baader Hyperion 8MM
SA Sterling Plossl 25MM
GSO 3-Element APO Barlow 2.5X's
www.innerplanetaryproducts.com
Meteorites and More....
"Outer Space at Down to Earth Prices"
Edited by Talstarone (09/28/06 03:13 PM)
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6882
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Hi Sejanus and Welcome to CN!
I think either the C11 or the Meade 10" LX200 would make very decent setups for both visual use and astrophotography, although a lot of ap guys use GEM mounts, which I think you should carefully consider, for instance a C11 on the CGE or a Skywatcher EQ6 mount.
It sounds to me like you have a nearly perfect setup. I'm sure there's a bunch of guys drooling right now thinking about it. 
Patrick
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Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR;Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Mini EQ1
My Astronomy Pages
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12208
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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I would look into a CGE Mount and possibly a 5" Apo, something in the mid-range focal ratio... (f/5-f/7) and a nice 80mm Apo for nice widefield and guiding. The Cat would be great, but you'd need to mount it on a Wedge to do any longer exposures. As mentioned above, you'll have a narrow field of view, and a SLOW system for imaging (f/10). You CAN do a focal reducer though. But you can also do that with the Apo and get really wide fields and FAST scopes.
Also, having a GEM, you can alter your setup any time you want without re-purchasing everything.
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
 Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hi Neo,
Thanks - do you have a example of a 5" Apo you could tell me then I could look into it a bit from there.
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16" LB
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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I'd have to have a dig around to see if GEM mounts were easily avail in Ausralia. The mount that the meade ships with is not enough? I saw it and compared to my photography tripods it looks like it could hold a battleship 
Quote:
Hi Sejanus and Welcome to CN!
I think either the C11 or the Meade 10" LX200 would make very decent setups for both visual use and astrophotography, although a lot of ap guys use GEM mounts, which I think you should carefully consider, for instance a C11 on the CGE or a Skywatcher EQ6 mount.
It sounds to me like you have a nearly perfect setup. I'm sure there's a bunch of guys drooling right now thinking about it.
Patrick
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16" LB
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 6728
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.38 X 90....
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The LDX75 with a 10" SN on it wouldn't be my choice since it is on the outer edge of weight for the mount, but the 8" version would be a start (you can see some terrific stuff by our own Clownfish (Peter) taken with the 8" SN on an LDX75, albeit mounted on a pier). However, I'm not a fan of any kind of newt on a GEM because of the viewing positions...but that's me.
I don't know what your budget is, but the mount has to be your #1 consideration if you're going to be serious about imaging. The low end of serious would be the Orion Atlas. Next step up would be the Celestron CGE or the Losmandy G11, both around $3000 US new. From there, it's real sticker shock time.
I would look at something like a 10" Meade LX200 or a Celestron C11 OTA on a CGE/G11 with a nice 80mm APO of some sort piggybacked. With a focal reducer on the SCT, you cut your exposure time down for those really faint objects. For the widefield stuff like open clusters or the Andromeda Galaxy, you have the 80mm refractor.
Again, keep the mount at the top of your list. The scope is second for the serious imager.
David
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Meade 12" LX200
TMB 80/480
MI250
WO Megrez 110
Meade LXD75
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
Life expectancies would go WAY up if green vegetables smelled like bacon...
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6882
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
I'd have to have a dig around to see if GEM mounts were easily avail in Ausralia. The mount that the meade ships with is not enough? I saw it and compared to my photography tripods it looks like it could hold a battleship
Hi Sejanus,
There's two things going on here. The first is the type of mount most appropriate for astrophotography and the second is the stability of the mount. Yes, Meade's LX200 mounts are stable enough for astrophotography, but they are fork mounts. With a fork mount you will need to add a wedge to tilt the forks to get the scope polar aligned. Otherwise as the Earth rotates the image building up in the camera will show field rotation. (The scope still tracks the object in the center of the view, but it's slowly rotating in the frame). It's just one more piece of gear to haul around. A German Equatorial Mount (GEM) on the other hand, starts out with one of it's axis (the right ascension axis) already pointing at the North Star (or the southern pole if you're down under). Then the drive motors simply following the earths rotation. That's why GEMs are more popular for astrophotography.
Regarding the mount versus a photo tripod. My guess is that 300-500mm is about the longest lense normally used in daytime photography. With a 12" SCT, the focal length is over 3000mm long and the mount has to move too.
Patrick
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Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR;Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Mini EQ1
My Astronomy Pages
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ZachK
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 667
Loc: Israel
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Also you should think about what types of things you want to take pictures of. If you want wide field
shots of the milkey way then you want to do piggyback photography, the longer your focal length the smaller your field of view. So for example in a 2000mm s-c you probably won't be able to frame all of a number of the larger DSO's. For example M-31 is about 4degress across (though you can't see it from where you live)
I think this is one case where you are better off starting with something simple and upgrading over time as you figure out where you want to go.
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Zach Kessin
Yesha Israel
Meade ETX 127 Mak-Cass
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Sinar F 4x5 view camera
Rolliflex Camera 80mm F2.8
Pentax K-1000 Camera 35,50 and 60--300mm zoom
3 kids, Large cat, small dog
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Gendo
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/12/05
Posts: 3231
Loc: Rexburg, ID
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I agree with Neo's suggestion. A fast f-ratio apo refractor on a GEM mount will help you get the most out of your camera equipment. There's a lot of things you can photograph with a 5" refractor in the low to mid power ranges. A Schmidt Cassegrain is good for photographing very small objects like distant galaxies, and of course for planets.
I've owned both a GEM and now a fork mount, but a good heavy duty GEM is more versatile if you think that you may want to get a second telescope down the road. Then you can easily switch scopes whenever you want. I don't think a fork mount is any harder to setup than a GEM, at least between the two I've had. They were both heavy.
Also, a heavy GEM or fork on a thick sturdy tripod is less prone to the wind causing vibrations.
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6882
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
I would look into a CGE Mount and possibly a 5" Apo, something in the mid-range focal ratio... (f/5-f/7) and a nice 80mm Apo for nice widefield and guiding.
This is all a matter of opinion of course, but I'm not sure that this would be the best move for several reasons. First, Sejanus has already said he has a lot of high end Canon gear. I would assume this means he may have at least one fairly long lense already. (What's the longest lens you have Sejanus?). He could start out using those lenses piggybacked on a GEM mount as he's learning the skills required for AP. The scope he's piggybacked to would be the guide scope.
Secondly, for visual observing of DSO's you need aperture. Granted a 5" APO under dark skies will show a lot, but a 10" scope will show all that much more. Since Sejanus is still growing in the hobby, it would be nice to have some aperture for visual use.
Thirdly, I don't know his budget, but the cost of a 5" APO can be pretty high. For example, a Televue 127NP is going for nearly $7000 USD, while a Stellarvue SV127 f/5.7 is going for nearly $8000 USD. Keep in mind that this is for the OTA only. The cost of a high quality mount worthy of the scope is going to run another $2000-$3000.
Regards,
Patrick
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Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR;Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Mini EQ1
My Astronomy Pages
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sejanus
member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hi,
First of all thanks to everyone for their comments. The different opinions are certainly food for thought.
Patrick, my longest lens on Canon is a 300mm f/2.8, I have a 1.4 teleconverter for it as well. My next smallest is a 135mm f/2.
Regarding budget, the meade 10" lx200R in australia is $6150 AUD which i think is around 3500usd. Either way it is a large sum of money. A meade "ultrawedge" (recommended by the shop, i have no idea if it is decent or not yet) is $999 AUD.
Now, this is a lot of money, so if there was a option that may suit me as well or better for photography but is cheaper (which is why I pricked my ears up at the 10" LXD75 as it's only around $2500 AUD) I'm all ears! However if it did come down to it I would be ok buying the meade or a similar celestron in that price range as I believe something of that calibre should last me a long long time.
Regarding what type of objects to photograph, I have no interest in photographing the moon or any planets. I would like to take photos of star fields and nebulas etc. - something like this is what I am aiming for long term (please note I know I won't get this on the first night!!)
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=13348
So from reading these responses it seems I should pick 1 of these options ;
1) Buy the meade 10" lx200r and piggyback my camera onto it and grab star fields that way. This way I can use the telescope for observing (for fun!) and for guiding the camera.
or
2) Get something a bit faster such as a refractor. Could anyone give me a model number of a meade or celestron (or other) one they recommend so I can do a bit of research and check pricing in Australia?
I gotta be honest though the meade does have a spot in my heart But I'm open to other ideas such as the APO.
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16" LB
Edited by sejanus (09/29/06 11:39 AM)
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12208
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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Star fields and Nebula... That takes you out of the SCT then (My opinion) as the SCT's field of view is small. Some of the best starfield and nebula images I've seen are all taken with small scopes like the ED80. You can of course go larger. (Aperature is of course king!)
The Meade Ultrawedge has good and bad. Someone here did a review of it and had some initial Quality Control issues with it. I would personally look into a Mitty, Milburn, or APT wedge. MUCH better quality for slightly higher price.
I would still think about the GEM instead though. If you really want the LX200R, you can get the OTA only, put it on the GEM and piggyback something else... I think a 10"LX200R and WO-FLT110 would be a GREAT combo. Nice optics for both widefield, as well as deep sky. And having 2 scopes give you guiding ability. You can guide with EITHER scope while imaging with the other.
For the initial purchase, getting a GEM and just the APO would be my choice (WO FLT110). You can always add to it, or change the OTA down the road. And when Meade gets the Quality issues all sorted out with the R scopes, you can add that as just an OTA. You're GEM would be multi-purpose. If you got just the fork mount, you'd be stuck setting up a huge scope even when you want to do quick views. I know this, because this has been MY problem. It's tough setting up my 10" LX200 every time I want just a quick view of something. If I were to do it all again, I'd do a GEM and Apo, with an Alt/Az mount for the Grab-n-Go.
--------------------
Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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