WebFoot
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Redmond, WA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
As webfoot has mentioned many times, whats in a name.
Then I suppose no one would object to calling
a Tasco refractor a Takahashi instead? Sounds better.
When Ritchey-Chretien is a federally registered trademark, I'll agree with this analogy. But, since Ritchey-Chretien is actually a completely (if loosely-defined) descriptive term, that won't ever happen.
This is not even close to what Meade is doing.
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12" RCX400
10" LX200 Classic
Meade 102ED/LXD 650 mount
Sky90
SBIG ST-8XE/AO-7/CFW8
http://www.de-regt.com/Astronomy
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EJN
super member
Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 151
Loc: Pluto
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Quote:
When Ritchey-Chretien is a federally registered trademark, I'll agree with this analogy. But, since Ritchey-Chretien is actually a completely (if loosely-defined) descriptive term, that won't ever happen.
My analogy was intentionally meant to be
ridiculous to make a point about the importance
of names.
Ritchey-Chretien is not a "loosely-defined descriptive term" but actually a very precisely defined optical system where the
conic constants are defined by:
C1 = (B - F)/2DF
C2 = (B + D - F)/2DB
This link provides a good technical overview of the the Classical and RC Cassegrain designs: http://www.astroscu.unam.mx/bott/BOTT..4-27/PDF/BOTT..4-27_dmalacara1.pdf
One could design an APO with similiar spot diagrams
to an RC, but to then call it an "Advanced Unobstructed
Ritchey-Chretien" would be something only an idiot
would fall for.
Edited by Joad (12/04/06 02:07 PM)
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WebFoot
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Redmond, WA, USA
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Thank you for the [edit] lesson in optics. And for your "analogy" regarding refractors, which is as applicable to the present situation as was your previous analogy regarding trademarks.
It is worth keeping in mind that, however incensed so many are over Meade's arguably cavalier use of the "RC" label, the crux of the plaintiffs' case here is that they claim to have lost sales due to Meade's alleged fraud. They will still have to prove that not only is Meade's advertising fraudulant, but that people bought the Meade scope INSTEAD of the RCOS scope which costs many, many times as much, because of the confusion. So we can argue about how many angels fit on the head of a pin all we want, but that's only the first, and simpler, step in this litigation.
Edited by Joad (12/04/06 02:08 PM)
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 12022
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More minor edits. Guys, we're beginning to sound like Science.Amateur.Astro here, and we've got Terms of Service rules about "playing nice" and not posting to get a reaction in order to avoid that sort of thing. This is an interesting and valid topic for a Meade forum on Cloudy Nights, but this is my second caution. Next time I'll lock the thread.
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 5475
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I read the original complaint with amusement. I was wondering how a court would respond to a RICO complaint under these circumstances. In the amended complaint, I see that the plaintiffs have moved their Lanham Act allegations to front and center, relying on the RICO complaint as a secondary cause of action.
IMO, the plaintiffs are trying to back into a patent claim without having a patent. This is exactly the type of lawsuit which ought to be thrown out by the court before it even starts. The real travesty is joining the Meade dealers, which was done to invoke RICO (can't have a corrupt organization without more than one actor), and the damage it will do to their collective businesses defending a joke like this.
I also think that RC Optical is risking its "famous trademark" by trying to assert it in the Lanham Act claim. Sounds like a descriptive mark to me.
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Awesomelenny
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 2401
Loc: Long: 81.42 W Lat: 41.23 N
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Quote:
Stocking fee? Does that only apply at christmas?
Traditionally stocking fillings are done on St. Nick's Day which is tomorrow! So, hopefully some of ye will get some Naglers??? 
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Len
Meade 178 ED APO
127mm Astro_Tech ED APO
4" f/15 Model 166 Unitron with UNIWITT Pier
Televue Genesis SDF 101mm f/5.4
2.4" f/15 Model 128C Unitron
Coronado Solarmax 90 Telescope
Losmandy Titan; G-11; all w/Gemini
All in a "Backyard Observatory"
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
Psalm 19:1
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wrather1
AstroBear
Reged: 10/25/05
Posts: 3037
Loc: Dallas, Texas
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Quote:
Based on this analysis, if you want a scope that performs better than an SC but you can't afford a real RC, and are willing to accept some chromatic aberration, then the RCX is the scope for you...
Amen, brother!! Suits me to a tee!! 
DW
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"Don't worry about what telescope you own, or its quality. Just get out under the night sky, and enjoy God's wondrous universe." - T. M. Back
Meade RCX400-12 on JMI trolley "Ursa Major"
TMB 130SS on EQ6 PRO "Ursus Polaris"
Orion ED80 "Ursa Minor", WO ZS66ED "grab-'n'-go"
Canon EOS 30D (Hutech), Meade DSI, Philips ToUcam Pro
North Texas Clear Sky Chart
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snufus
sage
Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 379
Loc: Round Rock, TX
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I just cannot see how any good can come out of this lawsuit. I really hope Star and RCOS know what they are doing because they are walking a very fine line proving they lost sales due to their claim. I just hope for Star and RCOS's sake and Meade's that neither walks away from this damaged. I just don't see that happening though. In the end we may suffer as well. I hope not.
I really feel sorry for all the dealers named in the suit also and how their business may be affected by this.
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Best Regards,
Daniel
Scopes
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Meade 12'' LX200R #1
Meade 12'' LX200R #2
Orion Premium 102ED
William Optics 66SD
William Optics 66ZS
Mounts
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Celestron CGE #1
Celestron CGE #2
Meade LXD750
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 12022
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Quote:
I just cannot see how any good can come out of this lawsuit. I really hope Star and RCOS know what they are doing because they are walking a very fine line proving they lost sales due to their claim. I just hope for Star and RCOS's sake and Meade's that neither walks away from this damaged. I just don't see that happening though. In the end we may suffer as well. I hope not.
I really feel sorry for all the dealers named in the suit also and how their business may be affected by this.
I think this post bears repeating. Good points all round, IMHO.
I wonder how the often-mentioned telescope sales slump has affected the decision making behind this suit. People under pressure do irrational and sometimes self-destructive things. This suit could be an example.
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Rick Woods
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 4447
Loc: Inner Solar System
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I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but: somehow, I suspect this won't affect the sales of any of the companies involved. People looking for R-C telescopes know what the Meade is. They're not looking for that. Folks wanting to upgrade from SCT optics but without spending R-C money also know what the Meade is, and that's who is buying it.
These guys are just bashing themselves in the head for nothing. The market has the last word.
- Rick
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
8" Meade 826C
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snufus
sage
Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 379
Loc: Round Rock, TX
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Quote:
I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but: somehow, I suspect this won't affect the sales of any of the companies involved. People looking for R-C telescopes know what the Meade is. They're not looking for that. Folks wanting to upgrade from SCT optics but without spending R-C money also know what the Meade is, and that's who is buying it.
These guys are just bashing themselves in the head for nothing. The market has the last word.
- Rick
Rick I hope you are right as that is what I am rooting for. I do not want to see any harm to any party in this suit. It was stunning to read down that list of dealers just because some of them are small and I would imagine its tough for them to keep all employees educated on what a true RC is or not. They are just going by name (and trying to sell you something, which all sales people will do).
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Best Regards,
Daniel
Scopes
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Meade 12'' LX200R #1
Meade 12'' LX200R #2
Orion Premium 102ED
William Optics 66SD
William Optics 66ZS
Mounts
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Celestron CGE #1
Celestron CGE #2
Meade LXD750
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kennyrichmond
sage
Reged: 11/29/06
Posts: 387
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Star and RCOS have announced a new RC, one which is supposed to be competitive with the "SC" but with flatter fields, less coma, etc., but with a 50% obstruction and faster f/ratio. No price, no detailed specs. Could this be the basis for the lawsuit?
Ken R.
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Irish Setters
Max Mount 20"
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John Hoare
seantoir
Reged: 04/25/04
Posts: 9090
Loc: Area 14, Kildare, Ireland
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The real issue is the market as pointed out above and right now the market is definitely not being kind to Meade as it is currently structured. If it was they wouldn't have had their recently reported difficulties meeting their regulatory obligations. Regardless of the merits of the case Meade will have to undergo significant restructuring to get back on an even keel. It would be advisable for Meade to come to some sort of settlement in this case because they can't sustain a long-running and expensive legal battle while at the same time competing with Synta-Celestron in the company's current state.
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John
Watery Glebe
Puddlestown
Co. Kildare
Traditionally qualified Scealaí.
IFAS
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AviddayM
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/28/05
Posts: 2063
Loc: Snohomish, Washington
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Well, here's one that has caved in. I wonder how they will advertise the "Hubble in your own backyard". Should be interesting to see. Could we see another lawsuit from Meade against them for not calling it what Meade does?
Or perhaps they'll just drop Meade. 
Dave
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Dave
FS102NSV f/8
C11 XLT
NJP Temma II
STV Deluxe w/efinder
Ps 8:3-4
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers. The moon and the stars, which You have ordained. What is man that You are mindful of him. And the son of man that You visit him?
Edited by AviddayM (12/07/06 05:13 PM)
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12218
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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Yeah... Anacortes Ads have changed already. No more "Advanced RC Optics" in the discription... 
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Neo... (Jeff)
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10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
 Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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John Hoare
seantoir
Reged: 04/25/04
Posts: 9090
Loc: Area 14, Kildare, Ireland
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I wonder what Meade's lawyers have got on the other 13 that keeps them from making the same deal?
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John
Watery Glebe
Puddlestown
Co. Kildare
Traditionally qualified Scealaí.
IFAS
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 12022
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Leading question, John. Let's just let the court decide what's what in all this.
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12218
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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Quote:
I wonder what Meade's lawyers have got on the other 13 that keeps them from making the same deal?
Proving things...
My dealer (20/20 telescopes) said they were NEVER contacted, either my EMail, or phone from any of these people...
Looks like they just went through the Meade authorized list and picked everyone...
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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WebFoot
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Redmond, WA, USA
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Quote:
I wonder what Meade's lawyers have got on the other 13 that keeps them from making the same deal?
Just a guess--I would guess that Meade is indemnifying their dealers, and undertaking the legal defense. I would guess that Meade has shown the dealers enough to give them a good feeling about the ultimate outcome of the litigation. And I would guess that the dealers are, to put it mildly, annoyed at RCOS, so they would rather play ball with Meade than with RCOS. It may be that Anacortes is a large enough RCOS dealer that they just wanted to be rid of the conflict.
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12" RCX400
10" LX200 Classic
Meade 102ED/LXD 650 mount
Sky90
SBIG ST-8XE/AO-7/CFW8
http://www.de-regt.com/Astronomy
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AviddayM
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/28/05
Posts: 2063
Loc: Snohomish, Washington
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It will be interesting to see if this will cause a rift between ATWB and Meade. Also, could ATWB capitulation be seen to the court that RCOS case has merit?
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Dave
FS102NSV f/8
C11 XLT
NJP Temma II
STV Deluxe w/efinder
Ps 8:3-4
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers. The moon and the stars, which You have ordained. What is man that You are mindful of him. And the son of man that You visit him?
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