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asaintAdministrator
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From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout
      #1266677 - 11/24/06 08:07 AM

Astronomy Biz Shakeout

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Astrogranny
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: asaint]
      #1266718 - 11/24/06 08:49 AM

Since lack of growth in the amateur astronomy base is part of the problem, we should all be trying to "grow the base". It's fun for us, but it's vital for retailers. We should be having events for science teachers, encouraging astronomy-related entries for science fairs, and generally getting out the word that astronomy is fun. It's also a lot cheaper to get into the hobby now than it used to be.

It occurs to me, however, that I don't know why people aren't going into the hobby, and if the reasons aren't addressed by our best efforts, then our efforts will be ineffective. So perhaps one of the things we need to do is be a little curious at public star parties. When folks seem actually interested in what they're looking at, maybe we need to not only invite them to other star parties, but also see if we can find out about anything that hinders their participation. For myself, I thought it was much more expensive than it is. I was also unaware of the local resources.

Martha
N 39
W 77


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John Kocijanski
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: asaint]
      #1266860 - 11/24/06 10:53 AM

Great comments Allister. I too am not sure why more people take the dive into the hobby. I feel that there is alot of interest in astronomy out there. As a science teacher I would say the most favorite subject tends to be astronomy. Students seem to be the most interested in it. I bring my PST into school for students to look through and for the most part at least some seem to be impressed by what they see. These days in our media oriented society seeing the sun as it is through the PST just isn't very exciting for some of them. Some of them expect to see flames shooting out of the sun and explosions on the surface. At public observation sessions anyone who comes out to join us is quite impressed by the views they are shown. I think for some it may be the expense of getting into the hobby as well as the perceived learning curve involved with using the equipment and knowing the sky. Sometimes when I show an object to someone they ask how I knew where to look to find it. For many it may be the fact that they just don't have the inner drive to actually get out under the stars enough to warrant spending money on the hobby. Maybe glancing up at the night sky is one thing but dragging out a telescope or going to a club observation session is another. My club has started to do indoor winter meetings where we do a kind of "dinner and a movie' format. We show an astronomy oriented documentary and order out for pizza. In the middle of the film we pause for audience participation. All the events we did last year were well attended. So again the interest seems to be there. We even go out under the stars after the indoor meeting when weather permits and most of the crowd tags along.

--------------------
John
Deep Space Observer 10 * SPC-8 * C102 HD f/10 * XT 4.5 * AT1010N * PST *


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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: asaint]
      #1266884 - 11/24/06 11:18 AM

Hi Allister.
Very thought-provoking article.
Good one, Sir!

When I worked in the biz (1981 to 1990), our shop did all the things you mention, except create an on-line presense... since there was no "on line" back then.

All the astro vendors in my area currently do most of what you've suggested. Some are too small to market their own house brand of equipment, but two of the "bigger guys" do.
It's not cheap to go that route. For an Asian supplier to ship product that a dealer can sell under his own name, the dealer must buy in large quantity. Hundreds or thousands of whatever widget.
All money must be provided up front. The smallest players won't have the financial resources to do that.

IMO, probably the best way for an astro dealer to stay afloat, or even grow significantly, is to move into another market with greater sales potential. There seems to be no shortage of birdwatchers with money to spend...

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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edwincjones
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1266895 - 11/24/06 11:27 AM

"We have met the enemy and he is us"

How many times have we bypassed the smaller astronomy dealer for the big online dealer to save a few dollars;
how many times do we do our own thing at a star party instead of outreach?

We vote for/against the smaller dealer with our money/orders.
We vote for/against the spread of the hobby with our time.

edj

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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Mr. Bill
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: edwincjones]
      #1266999 - 11/24/06 12:39 PM

As far as dealers, edj is right on...the "Walmart mentality" drives out the little guy. I saw the problems that the original Lumicon had struggling to keep the doors open. Most profit margins are paper thin. Since astronomy purchases are discretionary, they are the first thing to be cut back on with financial problems.

As to the pool of observers who buy the equipment, light pollution has definitely contributed to a decline in simple backyard visual astronomy.

Go To and astrophotography are obvious attempts to circumvent this very basic problem that is now plaguing visual astronomy. Hard to get enthusiastic when you can't see anything but a few bright starts and the planets, which also explains the dramatic increase in popularity of refractors and planetary observers.

--------------------
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos

Member IDA



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KennyJ

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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: edwincjones]
      #1267008 - 11/24/06 12:45 PM

Thank you Allister for a very interesting article .

I think THOUSANDS of young people ( and probably just as many of their parents ) MUST surely be " put off " the hobby of visual astronomy as a result of disappointing experiences with cheap , " toy " telescopes which are so well marketed and easy to obtain .

I think one great effort to help rid the industry of much of this unfortunate situation is for companies to get their MUCH MORE useful , less expensive instruments , such as short tube achromatic refractors and DECENT binoculars into the mail order and department store systems which we have long associated with the useless 500x 50 types of telescopes supplied with flimsy apologies for tripods .

I've spent a fair amount of my working life ( over 38 years ) working in Schools , Colleges and Universities , which children and older students very seldom attend outside DAYLIGHT hours .

I've yet to see a single telescope , or pair of binoculars at any of these institutions .

I would have thought allowing children and students to use binoculars and spotting scopes , with a little basic related information about aspects such as magnification , field of view , and common aberrations , as part of an " optics " branch of physics or science lessons would be a great way to get them interested in magnifying instruments per se .

Another thing -- when was the last time anyone saw a TV advertisement for REAL telescopes , binoculars or spotting scopes , or even an occasional TV documentary about the instruments ?

The only advertisements I've ever seen here in the UK are on those " BID TV " type of programmes which sells only the " rubbish " toy telescopes I mentioned earlier .

The major manufacturers AND the industry itself would surely benefit from some investment in THAT type of promotion .

Just a few ideas ,

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both



Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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Robo-bob
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: edwincjones]
      #1267020 - 11/24/06 12:55 PM

Another factor may be the weather. As a long time enthusiast, I am just getting sick and tired of the *Gosh, dang dibbity dag nabbit* weather and because of that, I do not have any opportunities to invite newcomers to come out and observe. It seems with the changing global climate, there are fewer and fewer nights to get out under the stars. In the last four months, it has been cloudy every single night. I have my equipment ready to go on a moments notice but sadly have only logged 90 minutes of observing time.
In fact, its getting so bad that I am now re-evaluating if it is worthwhile to have such a large chunk of money invested into a past time that I have virtually no opportunity to practice.
Sorry for the gloomy outlook but I can't be the only person experiencing this. I suspect as we continue to pollute the air, we will all experience less and less clear nights. It may take 10 years or it may take 50 years but it has definitely gotten worse since I began in this hobby.
The poor weather combined with light pollution will mean we all will miss more chances to get out under the stars....

Rob


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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: John Kocijanski]
      #1267031 - 11/24/06 01:00 PM

Quote:

Great comments Allister. I too am not sure why more people take the dive into the hobby. I feel that there is alot of interest in astronomy out there.





Hi John.
I think you're right. There is a fair amount of interest in astronomy and cosmic stuff. But, much of it seems to be the perception that there's a lot of cool stuff in the universe (galaxies, black holes, supernovae, comets, alien planets, etc.), in all it's "movie special effects" (or NASA image-enhanced), Techicolor glory.
When people decide to explore that interest further, they realize that seeing all the neat stuff requires staying up late at night, getting cold, losing sleep, learning the constellations and/or buying a GOTO telescope which might or might not find things, and waiting for cloudless skies that are all too infrequent in many places.
If they clear those hurdles and actually start to find celestial objects, they discover that yup, the Moon and bright planets are pretty spectacular, but a great many deepsky objects are rather underwhelming, visually speaking. The amateurs who get to this point and say "Hey, I don't care if M74 is a faint piece of lint I can hardly see, this hobby is AMAZING" are to be congratulated.
But, I can see why there wouldn't be many folks who share that opinion about our beloved pastime, once they've actually tried it out.

The ratio between people with a glimmering interest in the romance of astronomy and those who persevere to a moderate or advanced stage, will always be high, IMO.
The nature of our hobby, combined with modern lifestyles and expectations, will always result in a high rate of attrition.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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ALCHEMIST1
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1267076 - 11/24/06 01:46 PM

Great article, Allister. I think outreach should become the responsibility of every single one of us amateurs. I strongly suggest to everyone reading this post to make a pledge to serve this wonderful hobby by participating and helping out in at least one outreach event every year. In addition, I strongly suggest that when it is time to buy that expensive apo that you've saved up for, do so at your local astronomy store rather than online. The reason is that most store managers will offer you a nice discount not only on the scope but whatever accessories you may care to add with the scope purchase. The savings to you even after paying tax will be better than buying from an online dealer. In this regard, both Texas Nautical in Houston, TX and Austin Astronomy in Austin, TX excel. They even provide additional discounts to local astronomy clubs and club members in the area. That way you can get a BRAND NEW scope and accessories for a very decent price and you will have supported your local astronomy store and the hobby.

--------------------
APM 130/780 LW
Tak FS-60C
Atlas EQ-G (EQMOD)
DSI Pro, ATIK 16HR, Spectrum enhanced Digital Rebel
Philips SPC900NC


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Mr. Bill
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: ALCHEMIST1]
      #1267184 - 11/24/06 03:33 PM

Quote:

I think outreach should become the responsibility of every single one of us amateurs. I strongly suggest to everyone reading this post to make a pledge to serve this wonderful hobby by participating and helping out in at least one outreach event every year.




While I respect your zeal for promoting the hobby, I don't feel it is incumbent on me to be a spokesman or promoter for amateur astronomy to develop a "larger market share" for vendors.

My pursuit of visual astronomy is a quiet, solitary activity with a large amount of introspection and to some degree spiritual renewal.

People with similiar interests will gravitate towards this activity without public outreach.

Different strokes......


--------------------
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos

Member IDA



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Mike28
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #1267298 - 11/24/06 04:58 PM

I also agree the weather has been a big factor in affecting those potencial amatuers. In the last 3 years I have seen one public star party after another get cancelled due to poor skies/weather. When I first started in this hobby and joined my astronomy club, those public star parties had many clear nights and drew many eager people to the park to look at the heavens. I was surprised to see lines of ten or more people at out scopes. Now in the last few years it's been one or two successful public parties per year. This year alone we had the Mercury transit across the sun and meteor shower events cancelled. But I still keep waiting for those good nights and go viewing when I can. Alone during the week mostly. Sometimes a club member or two will join. Lets all pray for more clear nights! We really need it.

--------------------
Mike

'The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.” Albert Einstein

NS11GPS/Sky align
TAKAHASHI TOA150F
Celestron 80ED
TV Pronto
Burgess Bino
Coronado Ha PST
CGE mount




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mistyridge
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Mike28]
      #1267493 - 11/24/06 07:21 PM

Very nice write up Allister. I think that uban living under light polluted skies is a big deterant to attracting new people of any age group to the hobby. If the retailers and manufacturers would show in their glossy ads that you can see a lot of objects in LP skies given the right kinds of gear. How many newbies have given up after buying a scope and then not being able to find the objects in their LP skies. We all say go to a dark site. I think many would be astronomers want to go out in the front or back yard for that instant gratification that is pervasive througout our society and not have to drive several hours to a dark site once or twice a year. Bottom line manufacturers and dealers need to direct newbies to the right equipment given the fact that most live under LP skies.

--------------------
Mike F
Misty Ridge Observatory
Stellarvue SV115T "WOW"! What a view.
Stellarvue SV70ED
Stellarvue Nighthawk
18" f/4.5 Teeter's, Swayze mirror
12.5" f/5 Astrosky, OWL mirror
15X70 Binos
Mounts: DM-6,M-1,CG-5(ASGT)


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Rusty
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #1267634 - 11/24/06 09:08 PM

Quote:


While I respect your zeal for promoting the hobby, I don't feel it is incumbent on me to be a spokesman or promoter for amateur astronomy to develop a "larger market share" for vendors.

Different strokes......





I think the point isn't public outreach unto itself (although I do several sessions a year), it's less altruistic. If we want to continue to have decent astrogear at affordable prices, there are things the amateur (and professional) community will have to do to help keep those manufacturers solvent, and one effective way is to promote the hobby to sustain the sales volumes.

It isn't mandatory, it's just the forces of the marketplace that we may be able in some small way to alter. And the manufacturers will also have to do their share.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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Brian Carter
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Rusty]
      #1267662 - 11/24/06 09:31 PM

I've been thinking about this a lot. I got my first telescope at 23 (now 27) and I was already interested, I had been wanting one and reading and surfing the internet about it (as well as taking astro classes at college) for a couple years. And I got one and I was pretty happy.

My friends were not. I tried to get them to come out with me, and they did a few times. but to them, it was a let down compared to the amount of preparation it took to see something cool.

Of course, this preparation is driving time. I have to drive an hour to just see the milkyway and two hours to get to a real dark site. That requires a real commitment to this hobby; a real commitment before one can even start to enjoy it. I'll be honest, I am completely bored by backyard astronomy; there is no point for me to try to see anything in mag 2-3 skies I have here at home.

So I think that is the problem. Astronomy doesn't get interesting until one gets to a dark site, and the dark sites are very far away. For someone who is young and wants to 'have fun', astronomy becomes more work and not enough fun unless one is very commited to it beforehand.

--------------------
10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies



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Pedestal
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Brian Carter]
      #1267694 - 11/24/06 09:53 PM

Quote:

So I think that is the problem. Astronomy doesn't get interesting until one gets to a dark site, and the dark sites are very far away. For someone who is young and wants to 'have fun', astronomy becomes more work and not enough fun unless one is very commited to it beforehand.




An excellent point: I've tried to get my grandkids interested, but it's easy to see why they are not. Where they live, on a good night, they'll see a few stars, the moon if it's up. Period.
I think that is a big contributor to the shrinking/not growing base. I don't have any "quick and easy" answers, either.
Hubert

--------------------
www.smoggybottom.org





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spaceydeeModerator
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Pedestal]
      #1267713 - 11/24/06 10:18 PM

I think part of the problem is that we have become an instant gratification society.

--------------------
Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST



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jake47
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: asaint]
      #1267819 - 11/24/06 11:43 PM

I really like the way this thread is treating the question. Too many times I see a post about the lack of new comers to astro obsession turn into a continuous round of bashing the young and society in general just because they don’t share our particular form of madness. I too worry and wonder about why more people aren’t mesmerized as I am.

A few thoughts to go with the excellent posts so far.

The consensus is that there is a downturn in the hobby since the vendors are experiencing slower and declining sales. I can see how the general economic picture would lead to this – more jobs but less pay, more millionaires but tighter budgets for the middle class. I also wonder if there is a decline in overall sales. Is it possible that the astro pie is being divided up a little more? I sort of divvy up my purchases between the few brick and mortar stores around and the large web site establishments. I’m one of the newcomers that you guys are hoping for, so I don’t know. Are there more of the large web dealers now or fewer. Are they taking spreading sales between a larger number of vendors?

And I agree with both points voiced about mentoring and doing outreach. It is one of my favorite astro pastimes. But then I was a teacher for a couple of decades. However, if it isn’t your cup of tea, don’t do it. I used to tell my teachers if they didn’t like poetry, don’t teach it. It will ruin it for the kids. Some of us like explaining and having a crowd around sometimes. Some don’t, and not only shouldn’t they feel bad about it, they shouldn’t try to do it if they don’t enjoy it. It probably wouldn’t turn out well. Folks are different.

Another thing I agree with is that darkness is required. We can’t live by the moon and planets alone. We need to add that consideration to the equation when we recommend a first scope. The ubiquitous answer to that frequent question is an 8” dob, but if the subject isn’t viewing from his or her yard in a fairly dark setting, what they see won’t inspire them much. Maybe we need to throw the 3 to 4 inch refractor into the mix as a possibility. They can more easily be transported to a dark location without having to use up most of the back seat. Once at the dark site, the dob would be more valuable, but packing and unpacking the big tube would cut down on the trips. From a good site almost all of the Messier’s can be found with a 3 inch refractor. That would keep a beginner busy for quite some time. Time to build skills and decide what might be the best way to quell the inevitable aperture fever. Many of CN’s guiding lights have told how their first light came through a narrow little refractor on spindly legs. The main virtue of a dob here is its stable mount. Perhaps dealers could make inexpensive but stable alt-az mounts available. If not, we need ATM solutions.

The lack of good skies and guidance may be the two biggest hindrances to the new astronomer. I often wonder what direction those two or three eager youngsters who ask all the questions at a star party have if they want to take up the hobby. Maybe clubs and vendors should offer not only viewing parties, but sessions on choosing a first scope and how to use them. Woodworking and other hobbies support trade shows that travel around the country. How about a tour of multiple cities by a vendor or trade grouping. Maybe a one day expo followed by a night’s viewing.

I’m all for having more people who buy equipment and politic for dark skies. In my golf days or canoeing days, I often wished that the venues were not so crowded with other enthusiasts. Ours is one hobby that is not overcrowded yet.

--------------------
Jim in Texas
NS11GPS (Celeste)
C6S-GT (Celia)
SV 85S (Stella)
SV66 (Red)
Pentax Binoculars (the Twins)


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rolandlinda3
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: jake47]
      #1267880 - 11/25/06 12:55 AM

I wonder what the assumptions are among the major telescope producers in regard to the "flat" sales they may be experiencing. My past experience with companies in a portion of the aerospace industry tells me that it is pretty common to overshoot a market: to anticipate a substantial improvement in sales over a relatively short period (1-3 years is short) but not take into account that the average life and use of their individual products is substantially beyond this short period. Telescope systems, for the individual, are high dollar ticket items with a longer life period of use if one believes the manufacturer's claims about great optics and capabilities (which I believe are pretty true and accurate for the big players). This means, however, that a period of relatively high sales will not be sustainable. One does get the impression, when viewing S&T and A magazines, that new scope lines are changing as fast as cars, which is driven by the marketers of these major companies. If this is what they think, I think they have made a mistake. Flat sales are evidence (similar to the aerospace industry) that one does not have to buy a scope every few years -- assuming a person buys a decent one to begin with. There are other things that can be done to improve "seeing" without that big investment of a "new" one. If I was king for a day, I would reign-in the market departments, anticipate more modest sales, improve service and service response, and let my good product sell itself. In the process, where "I" can make a few improvements to product improve my models where customers have found repeat mistakes, I would make those introductions as sub-improvements rather than keep pressing for a "new" line of systems. Then I would tell my existing customers that I can make these minor changes for a nominal fee (in anticipation of keeping them until they do buy a new scope in a few years).

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Mike28
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: spaceydee]
      #1268211 - 11/25/06 10:15 AM

Quote:

I think part of the problem is that we have become an instant gratification society.




That is true. Today's society is becoming too reliant on technology that is making things accessible and easy to aquire at the snap of a finger - you know like 'Go To' scopes but light polution is our #1 issue that must be dealt with. For security and well being, the public floods their homes with light at night and the malls and stores use massive light displays to draw consumers to their wares. We are the reason there is light polution - no doubt about that.

--------------------
Mike

'The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.” Albert Einstein

NS11GPS/Sky align
TAKAHASHI TOA150F
Celestron 80ED
TV Pronto
Burgess Bino
Coronado Ha PST
CGE mount




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