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Anonymous
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Nikon 10X50 Cf Action Vi Binoculars
Just seen these advertised in the u.k for £126. Trouble is they only have 11.8 eye relief which i think would be no good to me wearing glasses. I notice the Action 7x50CF have 20mm eye relief, but the trouble with these is they have the 7mm exit eye pupil wasting image gathering potential. Any recommendations on 10x50s in the £100 - £150 range that are advertised in the u.k. I'm really looking for ones that can be manually collimated.
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10142
Loc: Lancashire UK
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George ,
Perhaps you could consider these :
Pentax 10x50 PCF WP - Binoculars Binoculars > Waterproof Binoculars
Objective Lens diameter (mm): 50
Magnification: 10x
Exit Pupil (mm): 5.0
Eye Relief (mm): 20 ( actually 19mm ! )
Focusing Range (m): 5.5 - inf.
Field of View at 1000m: 87 ( = 5 degrees TFOV )
Pupilliary adjustmt (mm): 57-72
Porro Prism Design
Colour: Black
Waterproofing: down to 1m
Weight (gms): 970
Length (mm): 185
Width (mm): 175 The 10x50 PCF WP is distinguished by its centre focusing system; a PENTAX development. This feature, enabled size and weight to be reduced considerably, without compromising the excellent quality of the images. They are fully encased in a protective rubber housing and are submersible down to 1 metre depth of water. These models are ideal even for extreme conditions. The nitrogen-filled body prevents condensation due to sudden temperature changes. They further feature a long eye relief of minimum 19mm. making it easier for the user to see the full image - even when the eyes are at a distance from the eyepieces - when wearing spectacles. A special feature is the rubber sliding eye-cups that are easily pulled out for extra viewing comfort. Supplied complete with objective lens caps, case and strap.
Quite widely available - for around £150.
Regards -- Kenny
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Kenny, is the difference between a 5mm and 7mm exit pupil really that significant (I've been looking at the Pentax 7x50 PCF WP's)? The 7x50's give a much wider FOV (324ft/1000yds vs. 261ft/1000yds), which I would think is more important for bino star gazing...Am I missing something fundamental here?
Tom
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10142
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Tom ,
I'm not quite sure whether your latest question ( 7 x 50s)is in any way linked to my last post on this thread when I was suggesting the 10 x 50 versions of the same Pentax model for consideration by George , who specifically expressed an interest in 10 x 50s available in the UK.
Or I wonder are you simply asking the broader question about exit pupils of 5mm versus 7mm per se ?
Assuming the latter , it's a little ironic that over the past two days and nights I've exchanged several messages on another popular bino forum that I frequent , "defending" the 7mm exit pupil that I've spent the best part of two years contesting as a "waste of objective glass"
So at risk of sounding hypocritical in the eyes of anyone sad enough to recall any of my previous comments on the topic , my very latest thoughts are that generations of binocular designers who have forgotten more about optics than I will ever know can surely not all be wrong or stupid to have designed so many 7 x 50 , 8 x 56 , 9 x 63 , 10 x 70 and 11 x 80 binoculars over so many years.
I'm more than familiar with stories of sailors on rough seas in fading light needing that 7mm exit pupil but surely there can't have been THAT many sailors spending so much time scanning the horizons.
If there were so many, it seems odd that none of them ever seem to have left us any momentos of their experiences or joined forums such as these to add their few cents' worth , and in any case most of these 7mm exit -pupil binos are promoted as "astro -binos".
More recently , "accepted theory" seems to indicate that generally speaking people over around 50 years of age have maximum pupil dilation of only around 5mm in darkness.
I bravely pronounce that this assumption is somewhat flawed if not complete poppycock.
A noted regular contributor to this wonderful site ,let alone forum , who is over the age of 50 , has recently had his dilated pupils measured at 7mm --and that not in COMPLETELY dark -adapted circumstances .
There may well be very good arguments that a binocular with an exit pupil as large as 7mm is performing nowhere near it's maximum potential , but that is not to say that the same binocular will not provide a much more "bright , easy and comfortable " image than would the same body with higher power eyepieces.
Because terms such as "brightness " "ease of view" and "comfort" have no measurable units , they are unlikely to stand -up well in any technical tug of war against the advantages of higher power ( and thus smaller exit pupils) that CAN be measured in the very significant and universally accepted and very real properties of contrast and resolution.
So it is the old argument of "swings and roundabouts" , another example of the fact that no matter how good any particular binocular is for any specific intended purpose , there is always a compromise.
When you gain in power you lose in brightness and field of view , when you gain wider fields of view you tend to lose "flatness" -- a desired quality for stargazing.
Another "con" of a large exit pupil is that it amplifies any human eye astigmatism , making it virtually impossible for anyone with such afflictions and NOT wearing glasses or lenses to correct it, to attain "crisp ,sharp, clear " images , which again are terms not to be found in an optics expert's vocabulary but which are more "artistic" terms I have chosen to use intended to convey just about EVERYTHING desireable about a magnified image .
I happen to prefer very wide fields of view with hand -holdable low power and "easy to see with " 6mm exit pupils which is why I wouldn't swap my Zeiss 7 x 42 for any binocular in that size or price range.
All this said , I would estimate that 90% of the time a 5mm exit pupil is ENOUGH IF NOT TOO MUCH for binocular astronomy pleasure and performance.
I hope this helps rather than confuses you Tom , or any other reader of this midnight waffle !
Regards -Kenny.
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12565
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Kenny, that was excellent.
I think you touched on every, if-then compromise issue that crops up in the decision making process. Trying to come up with one best choice compromises another.
Tom, first if you do not have eye pupils that dialate beyond 5mm then 7mm exit pupil does you no good. But if you do, then there are applications where the 7mm exit pupil will show greater performance. That is primarily on broad diffuse extended objects.
What do you give up to get 7mm exit pupils? Image size. But if the image is broad and diffuse, do you need a larger image scale? Maybe not.
The binocular that would be best for broad diffuse extended objects is not the same binocular that would be best for most other objects. For most everthing else, a higher magnification (that produces a smaller exit pupil) provides a larger image and a bit deeper limiting magnitude that allows seeing more. More stars in wide open clusters, more resolved stars in dense clusters, a little bit more definition in doubles.
All that is probably why many of us own more than one binocular. Kenny even has his terrestrial favorites, I my backpacking favorites.
It's not all in the exit pupil either. A higher contrast, sharper image from a smaller exit pupil can exceed an image from a larger exit pupil if not from an equally high quality binocular.
My 16x70s exceed my 15x70s. My 12x50s exceed my 10x50s.
But in either case not in field of view. However, fov can lose some of its relative importance if the image is considerably better.
I could go on, but instead, go back and read Kenny's again.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Kenny, you got the broader meaning of my question and thanks for answering...I'll need to read it several times to fully comprehend what you are trying to tell me.
EdZ, I need to read yours a few more times also...I think I asked a decent question and recieved detailed answers and I hope others will benefit from your answers as well.
Thank you gentlemen, Tom
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks Kenny. They look like good binoculars, I especially like the rubber sliding eye-cups and the eye relief. They should be much more comfortable to use than my current oberwerks.
I have searched several sites and the binocs sell anywhere from £139 - £169. Has anyone bought from the following suppliers. If so were they happy with the quality of the goods and customer service (delivery times etc).
http://www.binos.co.uk £139 http://www.camera-shop.co.uk £139
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