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LunaC
super member
Reged: 10/06/06
Posts: 198
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Edz, (not being rude mind you)
If the perception is no different then the differences DO NOT exists in a perceptual context. Right?
If apparent resolution increases due to neural binocular summation and the realized contrast gain whilst in a scotopic condition, but the neural adaptation kicks in to normalize the view, do we have increased brightness or just increases resolution?
I'm not being lazy, I've read the thread and believe I understand the principle being discussed. Put me on the right track if I'm being a little dim here 
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12792
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I would say you can take the measurement of the differences out of context and declare that there are no perceptual differences. But, while method and measurement may be accurate, it would not be precise.
That's kind of like saying, when measuring the thickness of several hairs with a standard 1/16th inch scale, there is no perceptual difference in the thickness of hair from different people. Of course we all know that when the hairs are measured using a caliper, differences of 1/1000ths of an inch are easily perceptable. The differences don't go away just because you take the measuremnt out of context. You simply may not have described the differences with a fine enough indicator to gain a real perception.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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Quote:
If the perception is no different then the differences DO NOT exists in a perceptual context. Right?
And can you draw universal or specific concusions from that? Unfortunately, human vision is not objective. Unless you can see through someone else's eyes, you can not apply your experience to others. And what we are talking about is the "experience" of "brightness." Binoculars do not "gather more light" than telescopes, but an observer MAY not experience that.
("Light gathering" is an unfortunate phrase that should be banned - it has no place in optics or vision.)
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LunaC
super member
Reged: 10/06/06
Posts: 198
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Quote:
You simply may not have described the differences with a fine enough indicator to gain a real perception.
edz
Isn't all that matters that which the person observes?
Sure we can integrate the energies and determine more brightness should be present but does that really matter?
Just like a digital camera on auto, our brain tries to normalize the view to be consistant.
So after running through the adaptive mechanism Joe might be seeing a brighter view whereas Bob recognized more detail from the higher contrast but the same overall brightness. It is all based on individual perception, just like with audio, you can train yourself to view the result in different ways.
Ultimately it goes back to my simple post above, try it. Try it in daylight, try it when you feel you are in the mesopic transition and try it in the dark. The result is subjective based on the individuals perception. There is nothing quantitative about it. It doesn't care about anyone else's scale but its own. Hence perception.
EDIT: PS EdZ, I hope I'm not coming across the wrong way. Just discussing.
Edited by LunaC (12/27/06 03:25 PM)
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LunaC
super member
Reged: 10/06/06
Posts: 198
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Quote:
And can you draw universal or specific concusions from that? Unfortunately, human vision is not objective. Unless you can see through someone else's eyes, you can not apply your experience to others. And what we are talking about is the "experience" of "brightness." Binoculars do not "gather more light" than telescopes, but an observer MAY not experience that.
Who are you supporting 
Sure seems like you are on my team here. 
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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Quote:
Quote:
And can you draw universal or specific concusions from that? Unfortunately, human vision is not objective. Unless you can see through someone else's eyes, you can not apply your experience to others. And what we are talking about is the "experience" of "brightness." Binoculars do not "gather more light" than telescopes, but an observer MAY not experience that.
Who are you supporting
Sure seems like you are on my team here.
That is the problem with subjective arguments, you never really know which "side" you are on. 
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LunaC
super member
Reged: 10/06/06
Posts: 198
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What are we talking about? See, I don't even know what side I'm on.
(...my 2.45554yr in old has discovered Chicken Little so my humor is a little dry right now...)
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