Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
neoweb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/10/06
Posts: 1482
Loc: UK
Binoculars gather more light than telescopes?
      #1313735 - 12/20/06 11:55 AM

I read the following on another web forum which was posted in response to someone who said that in light polluted skies he sees more detail with his binos than his 6" reflector:-

Quote:

its because your binoculars gather more light than your telescope. For example a pair or 10x50 bins have an aperture of around f2 whereas your 6" reflector and 25mm eyepiece has an aperture of f8




He may have got the bino aperture wrong but in general is that accurate?

Thanks as always.

--------------------
Celestron StarHopper 8" f/6 Dob
38mm Burgess 2" SWA | 30mm Ultima | 20mm Omni
17mm Hyperion | 12.5mm Baader Ortho
8mm TV Plossl | 6mm TMB/BO Planetary
Orion Shorty Plus barlow
15 X 70mm Skymasters

Saturn-like: desktop image


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
KennyJ

*****

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10452
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: neoweb]
      #1313776 - 12/20/06 12:14 PM

neoweb ,

I don't know who originally posted that paragraph you QUOTED above , but whoever it was sounds terribly confused !

APERTURE alone has no relationship to focal ratio .

It is possible , of course , that a certain 6 inch reflector may have a focal ratio of f8 , but focal ratio itself plays no part in light gathering per se .

There are many articles in the BEST OF section , most of them written by Ed Zarenski , which explain in great detail the differences in light gathering and image brightness between binoculars and telescopes of identical aperture .

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sftonkin
sage
*****

Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 395
Loc: Kent, UK
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: neoweb]
      #1313795 - 12/20/06 12:27 PM

Light gathering is directly related to aperture. So is the ability to overcome light pollution. Tghis is why it is possible to see stars in the ultimate light pollution, broad daylight, with a large aperture (I have seen Albireo split in daylight with the 20" refractor at the Old RGO). The summation effect of binoculars makes a 50mm binocular approximately equivalent to a 70mm telescope so, no, he is wrong.

However, extended objects do suffer from increased focal ratio when light pollution is intrusive. This is essentially why objects such as M33 and NGC7000 are usually far easier in (say) 7×50 bins than in most small telescopes. This is probably the reason the person sees more in his binocs.

HTH

Edit: Huh! Kenny got there first while I was typing the above...

Edited by sftonkin (12/20/06 12:32 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12792
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: sftonkin]
      #1313918 - 12/20/06 01:42 PM

Neo,

If you care to, you can direct anyone who would like to be better informed to this link in our "Best Of" threads.

Binoclar Summation

There is more than one common tripping stone to these calculations.

First trip-up is to apply the binocular summation factor of 1.4x to the diameter of aperture. Opps, no. Apply it to area of aperture.

Second tripping stone is to ADD together the area of both apertures of a binocular. Opps again. If all the light from two apertures could be delivered into one eye, then you could do that, but that's not binocular vision.

Binocular summation is factored on area of one aperture when you have one aperture to each eye.

based on light gathering (area of aperture)
A 150mm telescope provides the equivalent of a 127mm binocular.
A 50mm binocular provides the equivalent of a 59mm telescope.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sftonkin
sage
*****

Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 395
Loc: Kent, UK
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314013 - 12/20/06 02:50 PM

Quote:


First trip-up is to apply the binocular summation factor of 1.4x to the diameter of aperture. Opps, no. Apply it to area of aperture.




Aarghhhh!

Quote:

A 50mm binocular provides the equivalent of a 59mm telescope.



Thank you for catching me as I fell from that trip...

--------------------
Stephen

Hindsight: The only truly diffraction-limited system


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12792
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: sftonkin]
      #1314043 - 12/20/06 03:08 PM

I tripped on the same thing in a post about a month ago.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2129
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314087 - 12/20/06 03:29 PM

DISCLAIMER: I am about to SAY more than I KNOW.

Mathematically, what Stephen and EdZ say about binocular summation is true. However, this is in an arena in which that which is perfectly true has several shades of gray, based on a number of variables.

As opto-geeks, we like our world to be wrapped up nicely and tied with a bow—that bow being made of mathematics and repeatability. On the surface, it would seem that stereopsis provides a 1.4 times increase in image brightness over that available through monocular vision. Some people even believe that the brain utilizes the mathematical light grasp of BOTH objective lens. This is not true. If it were, when placing your hand over one eye, your view would dim by 50%. Obviously, this has never happened with any test subject. Thus, in light of empirical data, both the 1.4 and 2.0 figures provided by mathematics go down in flames.

Now then, we KNOW the EdZ, Stephen T and many of those they quote are quite bright and have done their homework. SO, why is this lamb not lying down with the lion?

Because of matters that don’t relate to mathematics, but rather physiology . . . Unmathematical, unreliable and unrepeatable results pop up in testing based on PERCEPTION! Man, what a lousy thing to have to hang science on. From the mid-70’s to the mid-90’s millions of dollars in research were spent at some of our more prestigious universities to prove that little boys and little girls are—with the exception of a few body parts—the same. And, when the millions of dollars and 20 years were exhausted, what did they find? Little boys and little girls are different! What a concept. I would have told them that for a pizza and a Coke.

So it is with physiology. We are all different, and the strength of our abilities to perceive varies not only from individual to individual by within each of us as we are affected by alcohol, caffeine, fatigue, errors in collimation, Seidel aberrations and other variables.

For astronomy, does stereo vision make dim stars brighter, or does it make background “noise” diminish? If the later is the case, stereo vision would increase our ability to PERCEIVE the dim star without the star growing in the kind of brightness that would register in a photometer.

Those who would like to read more about binocular summation and probability summation should checkout the following website:

http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/VSIII_2006/Lecture10.pdf

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12792
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: BillC]
      #1314114 - 12/20/06 03:47 PM

Hi Bill,

actually Dr. Salmon's paper is one of the same papers that I linked to through my link posted above. In fact his paper supports everything I've written about binocular summation and is one of the papers I referenced for my studies. Interesting that we both refer to the same paper as reference to somewhat different viewpoints.

Follow my link in the post up above which leads to these resources or simply go to the links in the "Best Of" Binocular Summation for links to this and other papers.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
neoweb
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/10/06
Posts: 1482
Loc: UK
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314144 - 12/20/06 04:07 PM

Thanks everyone for commenting... Edz, that Binocular Summation post was especially helpful.

--------------------
Celestron StarHopper 8" f/6 Dob
38mm Burgess 2" SWA | 30mm Ultima | 20mm Omni
17mm Hyperion | 12.5mm Baader Ortho
8mm TV Plossl | 6mm TMB/BO Planetary
Orion Shorty Plus barlow
15 X 70mm Skymasters

Saturn-like: desktop image


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
KennyJ

*****

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10452
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314153 - 12/20/06 04:09 PM

Although related to a different aspect of binocular viewing , Bill's points above remind me of a rather long drawn out , and at times , regrettably , unpleasant exchange of ideas and opinions I was involved in on another astro - related forum a few years ago .

Toward the end of that particular saga , it was apparantly SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN BEYOND DOUBT ( mainly , if I remember correctly , based upon the OPINIONS of two or three REAL EXPERTS -- i.e those who have been paid LOTS of money for designing optical systems ) that although after many hours of private experiment , I had PROVED to myself AND to various family members , time and time again that I COULD ( and still can ) perceive a difference in image brightness and quality when looking through binoculars with exit pupils of greater area than my dilated pupils , when compared with looking through the same binoculars stopped down so the exit - pupil was the same or smaller than my pupil size , that I COULDN'T POSSIBLY DO SO !

I'm all for LEARNING , and for differences of OPINION , but when it gets down to someone trying to TELL ME what I can and cannot see through MY EYES -- I give up ! :-)

Regards ,

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2129
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1314254 - 12/20/06 05:09 PM

Hi Ed:

Thanks for the additional direction. The scientific investigation that has gone down so far is what caused me to start my post with a disclaimer. I can assure you that you and those fellows are brighter than me. However, I will still stand by what I have said. That is in saying that while a certain point may be correct and at the same time NOT be correct for the reasons that some state or believe.

Please don’t think I am challenging the science; I am not. However, when the human body is superimposed between reality and perception, the rules are prone to change—sometimes quite a bit. For example, scientists KNOW the bumble bee cannot fly. There are a whole list of logical scientific reasons. Yet, somewhere along the way, engineering forgot to tell the bee.

Similarly, while I can certainly see and understand their assertions as it relates to star images against a black background when perception comes into play, I can’t, by placing a hand over one eye, bring myself to believe that whatever I am looking at on a bright, sunny day drops 50% by so doing, UNLESS some other aspect of PERCEPTION, heretofore un-discussed, is coming into play.

One thing I cannot bring myself to budge on is the fact that most of us on this list do not have optical systems made up of photometers, PhotoShop, a computer and CRT. Thus, relying on eyes and the human brain, the laws of what can and cannot be seen under given circumstances are subject to change . . . frequently and hard.

PLEASE do not take me wrong. I am just stating an opinion. To me, this is not worth contesting any more than so many of the “This” VS “that” opinions when often the “this” and “that” are the same under the rubber.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
KennyJ

*****

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10452
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: BillC]
      #1314292 - 12/20/06 05:33 PM

Bill ,

I realise it would be potentially suicidal for YOU to appear to be agreeing with ME about anything related to binoculars , but what you are saying DOES appear to have more in common with my own experiences than several things I've been told CANNOT be true .

On a side note , I once saw a computer generated image of what was SUPPOSED to be the PERFECT looking female face , based on thousands of " facts " and " opinions " .

To me , although the face was not exactly UGLY , I've seen HUNDREDS of better looking girls , even when sober ! :-)

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
broke_dad
journeyman


Reged: 12/11/06
Posts: 5
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: BillC]
      #1314350 - 12/20/06 06:10 PM

Quote:

...relying on eyes and the human brain, the laws of what can and cannot be seen under given circumstances are subject to change . . . frequently and hard.

Bill




Visual information is focused through an optical system and routed through the eyes. The human brain does strange things with it. If you are speaking to me, I can "hear" you better if I'm wearing my eyeglasses. After years of working in boiler rooms and power plants, I've probably developed a unconscious ability to lip-read. My brain compiles the visual and audio information and fills in the holes in the latter. The perception that I hear better with my glasses on is very real--even though it seems to makes no sense.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12792
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: broke_dad]
      #1314486 - 12/20/06 07:07 PM

Quote:

I can’t, by placing a hand over one eye, bring myself to believe that whatever I am looking at on a bright, sunny day drops 50% by so doing, UNLESS some other aspect of PERCEPTION, heretofore un-discussed, is coming into play.





Bill,

this might have something to do with the fact that the eye is capable of seeing (and I know this is not quite accurate, but you will get my point) about a million times threshold of light from faintest to brightest. In other words, while we can measure a 40% light gain or drop in optics by seeing a difference of about 0.4 magnitude in stars, the stuff we see in daylight is thousands of times brighter than that. A 40% (0.4 magnitude) gain or drop IN DAYLIGHT would not possible be perceived by the human eye. It represents maybe only 1/10000th of a change in daylight. So, the total light gathering really does drop, but expectations of what that drop looks like can be mistaken.

A misconception may be in what is expected by a drop of 50%. Is it expected to go halfway from fully lit to fully dark? That may actually represent more on the lines of a light drop of 10000%.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jay_Bird
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 690
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314582 - 12/20/06 07:45 PM

I hope another way to look at this adds something useful.

A factor of 1 million in brightness in other familiar terms, is about 20 photographic 'stops' or the equivalent of a range of say, from f/1.4 at 1 second (hard to see to focus) to f/16 at 1/500 second (day at the beach)... Each stop is a 1/2x (or 2x) change in brightness

In the heyday of relatively forgiving black and white film, many could set exposure by eye to within a stop (or close to that) - just accurate enough to be acceptable for newspapers, etc.

So trained eyes were JUST distinguishing a 50% change, about the same as the mono- or bino-cular percieived brightness difference.

A very interesting thread.

--------------------
'these things stand like stone - kindness in another's troubles, courage in your own' Gordon


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2129
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314617 - 12/20/06 08:09 PM

Hi Ed:

We're getting closer. My whole point was not for the optical engineering crowd.

Would you not agree that walking into a room full of eager optical newbies and saying that stereopsis makes things 40% brighter would leave them to draw some misleading conclusions about what they should expect to see at the eyepiece?

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12792
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: BillC]
      #1314655 - 12/20/06 08:32 PM

Quote:

Would you not agree that walking into a room full of eager optical newbies and saying that stereopsis makes things 40% brighter would leave them to draw some misleading conclusions about what they should expect to see at the eyepiece?

Cheers,

Bill




Oh, how very true.

It's nearly impossible that every time we engage in one of these types of discussions that we take the time to explain basics necessary to understand the problem. The basic tenet of the magnitude system is that the change from mag 6 to mag 1 (5 magnitudes) represents 100x the light. A change of 1 magnitude is 100x to the 5th root, or 2.51x or 251%.

Most observers could see the difference between a mag 5 star and a mag 4.6 star, probably fairly easy.

Few if any observers would ever be able to see the difference between a mag minus 5 daylight scene and a mag minus 4.6 daylight scene, because it would still be just way to bright to see any slight darkening.

Binocular Vision threshold studies sometimes incorporate data using conditions under dusk or darkness, such as contrast detection at dusk. At least under those conditions light is low enough that differences in threshold ability can be measured.

In astronomy, it much easier. Just measure limit of magnitude that can be seen with and without binocular vision. Now, anyone wishing to read further, follow all the links above.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2129
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: EdZ]
      #1314754 - 12/20/06 09:23 PM

>>>Then you can see why I said what I did; that's good.<<<

Frankly, I don't care about the situation because it doesn't affect ME. I just wanted to throw out a few words so that some newbie might not get the wrong impression.

For some folks, even focusing a binocular is an exercise in terror. It's Christmas and, for the most part, I am the only optician on the floor. Can you GUESS what I am up against--at light speed--this time of year?

I REALLY strive to be kind and courteous. But sometimes, when my head is throbbing, my feet are throbbing and I am 3 hours late on getting something to eat, I just want to say: "Were you born stupid, or did you just get that way?"

Of course, I don't say that; I just hold it inside and hope that I will be able to control myself better the next day.

Then, too, I put on a pretty good dog and pony show in setting right everything they have seen, read or been told by their Uncle Ernie about binoculars and try to have a good time.

It's kind of like it is here on CN. The instant know-it-alls hate me from the start, but those who learn quickly that I am not going to play fraudulent head-games with them keep coming back as loyal customers.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ChrisR
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/11/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Washington
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: BillC]
      #1314829 - 12/20/06 10:14 PM

For the record, I would like to state after reading this whole thread...........my head hurts

Peace,
Chris

--------------------
Journeyman Optical Technician
Amateur Astronomer.
All around good guy
Orion, StarMax 127
Canon, 12x36 IS
Minolta, 8x25 WR
Halco, 7x50
Nippon Kogaku, Micron 7x35


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 12028
Re: Binoculars gather more light than telescopes? new [Re: ChrisR]
      #1315007 - 12/20/06 11:54 PM

Will this help your headache, Chris? We have two topics here, actually. The first is the question that begins this thread. As EdZ and Stephen have shown, there are very precise mathematical formulae that demonstrate beyond any subjective qualification exactly how much light a binocular of a given aperture gathers in relation to a telescope.

But as Kenny and Bill (who will be our "poets," so to speak in this discussion) note, once a binocular gathers that light and some human sort of subjective creature obtrudes himself in front of the finely focused light path, all that nice math gets a bit mushy, because different eyes under different conditions looking at different things will perform differently.

Does that help?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)


Extra information
11 registered and 28 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  EdZ 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 1313

Jump to

CN Forums Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics