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half meterAdministrator
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How to Determine Limiting Magnitude
      #135504 - 06/27/04 10:46 PM Attachment (537 downloads)

I don't know where exactly to post this, but I know DSO seekers are interested in how dark the skies are where they observe.

I've been searching the Northern Hemisphere constellations for a way to easily determine the limiting magnitude of my skies. I know some folks use Ursa Minor because it's up year around. But sometimes there's a difference in seeing between overhead and 45 degrees or lower.

I found a good model in Aquila. Note the range of mags: roughly 0.75, 2.75, 3.75, 4.75, 5.75, and 6.75. I have come up with an easy pattern to use every star near Altair, including a really neat mag 6-to-7 "square" for those of you with great skies.

Go outside and find Altair. Then, find the dimmest star you can using this model as a guide.

How dark are your skies?

Best,
Gary

--------------------
Gary


Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!


Edited by half meter (06/29/04 08:28 PM)


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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #135523 - 06/27/04 11:18 PM

Wow that is great, is there a way you could get a freeze frame with all the stars you pointed out labeled (their magnitude) If not I will draw up my own. I will add this to my field notes. Nice work.

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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: ]
      #135531 - 06/27/04 11:39 PM

Very helpful, half meter. And I agree with Shmals' request for a freeze frame.

--------------------
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: ]
      #135532 - 06/27/04 11:40 PM Attachment (525 downloads)

Sure, here you are!

--------------------
Gary


Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!


Edited by half meter (06/28/04 12:07 AM)


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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #135558 - 06/28/04 12:33 AM

This is awesome. Thank you half meter.

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EdZ
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: ]
      #135673 - 06/28/04 09:42 AM

LINKS to Web - Binocular and Astro Info

This link will take you to the Binocular Forum web links. Page down and you will see a half dozen different links to Limiting Magnitude Charts posted here on CN and also links to several offsite LM resources. The link to the Taurus - Hyades Chart is a particularly detailed NELM chart.

edz

--------------------
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: EdZ]
      #135723 - 06/28/04 11:43 AM

Thanks a bunch half-meter!

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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: EdZ]
      #135790 - 06/28/04 12:39 PM

Quote:

Page down and you will see a half dozen different links to Limiting Magnitude Charts posted here on CN and also links to several offsite LM resources. The link to the Taurus - Hyades Chart is a particularly detailed NELM chart.




Thanks for the links, Ed.

The problem with all the guides in the link and your Taurus - Hyades Chart is that you need to either record stars for later analysis *or* have the finder chart with you.

My self-imposed demands were stringent:

[1] The pattern had to be easily memorized;
[2] *No* variable stars included;
[3] A bright, <2.0 mag. star had to be included;
[4] Can't have a lot of confusing, similar magnitude stars nearby;
[5] Must be visible for large parts of the year near 40 degrees North;
[6] Must use *every* star that becomes visible in the area near the stars being checked (this means it's OK to have a 6.5 near a 5.75 mag being checked, but not the other way around, unless that star was already used in a prior (brighter) check... does that make sense? It gets to the issue of eliminating confusion.)
[7] Less detailed increments OK below 5.0 mag. (0.5 mag steps desired.)
[8] More detailed increments needed between 5.0 mag. and 7.0 mag. (0.25 mag steps desired.)
[9] Approx. 1 degree or more separating each checked star (no close doubles.)

I believe I've succeeded (with acceptable exceptions to requirement #7.) Meeting these requirements was not easy!

Now, I'm interested to hear feedback from other CN contributors. How did your site check out, both immediately and after your eyes dark-adapted?

Thanks,
Gary

--------------------
Gary


Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #135812 - 06/28/04 01:04 PM

This should be interesting. Aquila's position in the eastern sky when it gets dark here is in one of the brightest areas of skyglow I deal with. So what it says about limiting magnitude will change as the night goes by and it climbs higher, then settles into the west. Now I need to see if any of the charts in EdZ's link do the same job in the southern sky, which has the worst of the skyglow of all.

--------------------
Tom W.

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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: desertstars]
      #135850 - 06/28/04 01:49 PM

Gary and Ed, thanks very much. Wish I'd had this chart about a week ago. I was in the coastal mtns of northern CA, under very dark skies. LM (with direct vision) was easily 6.0, and quite probably closer to 6.5 (definitely not 7.0 though), but I didn't have a good guage to determine this precisely.

cheers,
jeff

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EdZ
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #135856 - 06/28/04 01:55 PM

Gary,

that's a good set of criteria.

Actually, I think you would find even a chart like the Hyades, that you are at first unfamilliar with, gets committed to memory in short order. I know all the stars on the Hyades chart between mag 4.5 and 5.7. I know right where to go to look for the next one fainter once I've sighted a specific magnitude.

Things that I would do differently are:

Magnitudes are needed every 0.1 mag. 0.25 is a big jump.

At the lower magnitudes such as between 4.8 to 4.0, it becomes even more critical to have increments to 0.1. Bright skies have a greater affect on the outcome of your recorded observations than does the difference between mag 5.5 and 5.6. By this I mean, the curve for the affect on performance in bright skies is a lot steeper than the curve in dark skies.

It is an unnecessarily stringent criteria that stars be 1° apart. Just think of Alcor and Mizar. They are only 12 minutes apart, yet easily seen naked eye. However the further apart they are the easier they become to identify. It would be extremely difficult to identify 6 or 8 different stars if they were all only 12 arcmin from their closest neighbor. Kind of like trying to tell which of the stars are seen in CR399 when it is dark enough to see more than one. Very difficult.

Recommended procedure for determining NELM to be used in conjunction with any recorded instrument observations is to attempt to record NELM within about 10° of your intended observation. I sometimes extend that to probably 20°. In other words, you could never use the Little Dipper to record NELM if your intended observation was to be in the area of Sagitarius. I recorded hundreds of observations on CR399, the Coathanger. For my NELM observations I used NELM stars in Lyra, Sagitta and Delphinus. When I performed the same type of Lim Mag studies on M45, I used NELM stars in Aries, the foot of Perseus and the Hyades.

Don't use NELM observations from an altitude of 40° or 50° if your intended instrument observation will be at an altitude of 60° or 70°. Equally important as how close the NELM observation is to your intended target, the NELM observation should be on objects at the same altitude in the sky. Altitude has a significant impact on Lim Mag.

When observing to determin NELM, if you readily observe to let's say mag 5.5, it may take you 5 minutes of concentrated observing to see mag 5.6. That last tenth of a magnitude will take longer to see than all the others.

I enjoy every effort by others to record charts like these and keep them available for use when in the area. Thanks for this useful chart and I have printed one for future use.

My front yard is often seen immediately as 5.0-5.2. Upon dark adaptation on nights such as these, I might see 5.6-5.7. More often I see 4.8 to 5.2

edz

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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: EdZ]
      #136216 - 06/28/04 07:26 PM

Thanks, Ed, good tips.

I agree, this guide is very sparse around 4.0-5.0 mags. And a star every 0.1 mag would be very accurate.

If I had to prioritize my requirements, memorization would be the most important. This requirement works against having the large number of stars it would take to step every 0.1 mag. although maybe with time I could work up to it, especially in the mag. zone of my local skies.

Another hard-to-meet requirement was that *every* star had to be used in the test area. This worked against easy memorization near a lot of the <2.0 mag. stars. Variable stars were another factor, but I didn't research those unless a candidate site had passed the other requirements.

My goal was being able to "rate" (a part of) the sky quickly, from memory, anywhere I could see the pattern. So many times, when traveling, I'd wish I could have rated the skies I was seeing.

--------------------
Gary


Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!


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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #136223 - 06/28/04 07:38 PM

I have been using Altair to judge the "general" conditions for almost 20 years now.

Not nearly as rigorously as my charts indicate It amounted to: if I could see Xi Aquila (4.68) while setting up my scope at home (or even thinking about it), I got this sense that "tonight was going to be excellent."

20 years... but I'm seeing Xi Aquila less and less lately. Is it my 46 year old eyes vs. 26, or more light pollution? I think it's more my eyes, because M13 in the same 8" SCT I've had since 1985 doesn't look as bright as I remember from years ago.

--------------------
Gary


Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!


Edited by half meter (06/28/04 07:46 PM)


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Starman1
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #136261 - 06/28/04 08:39 PM

Here's an easy one from Sky&Tel Aug,1988:
When the Little Dipper goes UP from Polaris (as is now the case), to the immediate right of Polaris,and slightly down, at slightly less distance than the next star in the "handle" from Polaris, and at right angles from the handle, is a 4.2 magnitude star. 3/4 of the way from Polaris to this star is a magnitude 6.2 star. At 35 degrees North latitude, the extinction at Polaris' altitude is 0.2 magnitudes compared to the zenith. Hence, if the mag.6.2 star is visible, even with averted vision, the zenith is mag.6.4 at least. If the mag.6.2 star is constantly visible with direct vision, the limit at Polaris is 6.3 (at least) and, hence, 6.5 at the zenith.
Where I regularly observe, the Zenithal Limiting magnitude (ZLM) is usually 6.5 or better. Since I know (from star counts) that my scope goes to mag.15.1 when the ZLM is 6.5, if I find myself seeing a mag.15.5 star, the ZLM has dropped to 6.9, and etc. A rough drawing follows:
--------------------------- * (star in handle above Polaris)
----------------------------I
----------------------------I
----------------------------I
----------------------------I
----------------------------*---------------*---------*
-----------------------Polaris-------------6.2-------4.2

Hope this helps.
Don

Also, Sky & Tel had an article that taught the ZLM from how many stars were visible in the square of Pegasus. Perhaps someone can post that article in Nov.1982.

--------------------
Don Pensack
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: Starman1]
      #136283 - 06/28/04 09:23 PM

I use the charts at http://www.seds.org/billa/lm/rjm.html

I like this because I can always pick the constellation that is closest to the zenith. I also only have to learn a new constellation every month. I can use the same one for multiple observing sessions.

I downloaded the web pages to my laptop so they are always available. Works great for me.


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EdZ
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #136616 - 06/29/04 10:10 AM

Leaving the Variable Stars out is a good idea. Even reference to the recent observations recorded on the pages of the AAVSO shows that recorded observations and estimates of magnitude can vary by as much as 0.3-0.4 mags on any given night from one observor to another.

Doubles however can be used because there is a fixed formula to determine the integrated magnitude of any double given the magnitudes of the two components. I use doubles on my charts.

Although it eventually happens through repeated use, I don't try to memorize any of my charts. Rarely am I out without my logbooks. All my drawings are in my logbook. I simply refer to the drawing, or I make a sketch and refer to the logbook later.

I've copied to here some excerpts from my Lab Report "Limiting magnitude in Binoculars". Some useful information.

Assessing and Recording NELM

There is some difficulty associated with determining NELM. To me, it seems much more difficult observing a star unaided at the limits of vision than it does observing the limits of vision through optics. Add to my previous discussion that observing LM requires considerable persistence and you can see that determining NELM may require just as much effort as determining LM in an instrument. In NELM 5.8 skies, while I can observe stars of 4.5 to 5.0mag directly rather quickly, it sometimes requires 5 minutes of concentrated gazing to record a 5.7 or 5.8mag star.

There sometimes may not be a sufficient variety of magnitudes in close proximity to step up in progression without moving the gaze to an entirely different area of the sky. Although I have at least five different indexed charts that I use for determining limiting magnitude, there are some gaps on every one of those charts, usually on the order of 0.2 to 0.3 mag. Determining LM almost always requires observing and noting more than one location.

When stars are too close in proximity to one another it can be difficult to tell how many are seen. CR399, Brocchi’s Cluster has a good array of stars ranging from mag 5.2 to 7.2, however the 5.2, 5.6 and 5.8 stars are so close together (separated by 15 arcminutes) for naked eye observation, even when it can be determined more than one star is visible, seldom can it be determined if three or only two are being seen. So, with this target, often times I cannot differentiate between mag 5.6 and 5.8. Both very dark skies and excellent visual acuity would help with this effort.

If double stars are included in the survey, the integrated magnitude must be determined. A good example of this is gamma Delphinus. With components of mag 4.5 and 5.5 separated by 9.6” (4.5-5.5/9.6”), it has an integrated magnitude of 4.15 that can easily be seen when compared to the other stars in Delphinus.

If conditions appear to be changing throughout the evening, NELM should be recorded again. On more than one occasion I have had NELM improve or decline in less than an hour.

NELM can vary from one area of the sky to another and certainly will vary from horizon to zenith. Observations should be made in the vicinity of the planned targets.

A sufficient variety of stars, even of similar magnitude, should be attempted. Sometimes observations of fainter stars can be recorded while nearby brighter stars go unseen. An example of this is several observations of TX Pisces at mag 5.8 (Aug-Sep ‘03) having been recorded while a nearby 5.7 mag star remained unobserved. Color index may be contributing to this condition. (However, more than likely, TX, a variable, may not have been 5.8 at the time. TX is red).

The color of a star will have an impact on LM. For two stars of equal magnitude, a red star will appear fainter, a blue star will appear brighter. The observer would reach a deeper LM if observing a field of blue stars. A review of the article "Telescopic Limiting Magnitudes" by Bradley Schaefer may provide a possible explanation for this phenomenon. " ...the reported magnitudes of stars are in the V magnitude system... consider the case of two stars with equal V magnitude but different color. ...if night vision were being used the redder of the two stars would appear fainter."

NELM should be considered as that faintest star that can be confirmed whether seen direct, averted or even glimpsed. The key is that it is confirmed. It is much easier to determine the NELM in a transparent sky than in a washed out moonlit or hazy sky. Observation is made more difficult when contrast between a brightly lit sky and a star is so much reduced.



edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: EdZ]
      #136729 - 06/29/04 12:40 PM

From my backyard last night, with the Moon nearby, I was just able to confirm Xi Aquila (4.68) as it passed the meridian. Prior to that, I could not see it.

For reference, using a Nagler 31 and a Meade OIII filter, I could not detect any part of the eastern or western Veil Nebula in my 8" SCT. Certainly different than 2 weeks ago at the Michigan Pre-Gaze star party, where there was no Moon, 6.8 mag skies, excellent transparency, and I had my 20" scope. That night, Tom Trusock and I had the best views we've ever had of the Veil Nebula.

--------------------
Gary


Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!


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Tom L

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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: half meter]
      #137035 - 06/29/04 05:55 PM

I've made this post sticky for all to see. Thanks for the post, Gary!

--------------------
Tom
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: Tom L]
      #140433 - 07/04/04 10:41 AM

Gary & Ed,
Thank you very much for taking the time to do this and post it. I very much like your criteria, Gary.

--------------------
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jmoore
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Re: How to Determine Limiting Magnitude new [Re: Tom L]
      #140544 - 07/04/04 01:30 PM

Quote:

I've made this post sticky for all to see. Thanks for the post, Gary!



good call, Tom! This is a good one to not get buried. thanks.

--------------------
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