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Upwards Tilt
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Reged: 02/07/07
Posts: 38
Resolution and phase-correction
      #1423127 - 02/14/07 12:03 AM

Is it possible to get high resolution from a roof prism binocular without phase coatings?

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mercedes_sl1970
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Upwards Tilt]
      #1423365 - 02/14/07 07:19 AM

I too am interested in this.

Andrew


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Erik D
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Upwards Tilt]
      #1423370 - 02/14/07 07:27 AM

That's a tough one. I only have first hand experience with 6-7 roof prisms. My 2004 EO Ranger 8X32 & Leupold 12X50 roofs with Phase Coating have much better resolution and color fidelity than my 1986 Celestron 10X40 but the improvement may not be from PC alone. I purchased a 8X25 compact roof in 1990 for about $90 from LL Bean. it's made in Japan. Resolution is poor compared to my 2005 Burgess 8X25 Vireo bought on sale for $29. The Vireo has very good image considering the low price. Much Better than the $99 Brunton 8X25 Echo I ordered and returned. The Vireo is from China. Neither have PC.

I do not have a premium Euro Roof from the pre PC days to compared to.

I know having PC alone does not mean high quality image. My 2003 Pentax DCF MP 8X28(~$200) have PC but the worst internal reflection I've ever seen in a binocular. ( it was rated a Favorite and Best Buy by a Birding magazine, no less) An Eagle Optics Denali 10X42 has PC but resolution and image quality was worse than my Celestron 10X40 without PC. I returned it.

The new Oberwerk 12X50 Roof( $149) does not mention PC at all. Looks like a quality Roof Prism. I wish someone will order one and report back.

http://www.bigbinoculars.com/1250.htm

I see Oberwerk changed the FOV spec from 5.7 deg to 4.7.......

Erik D


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Upwards Tilt
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Erik D]
      #1423552 - 02/14/07 09:54 AM

Yes, I am interested in the Oberwerk 12x50 roof which is why I asked. I e-mailed them yesterday regarding the FOV among other things, their site listed the proper spec of 82m/1000m along with 6*, so one was wrong, they corrected the website almost as quickly as they replied to my email.

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Erik D
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Upwards Tilt]
      #1423563 - 02/14/07 10:02 AM

My mistake. They did have it as 6 deg FOV, not 5.7. I remember saying to myself: Wow! 72 deg APFOV in a 12X50 for $149! Maybe I should give them a try. (My Leupold 12X50 only has 4.8 deg FOV).


Thank you for that correction. I know 52.4ft/1000yd but am not sure about 17.x m/1000m per deg FOV so I didn't pay attention.

Oberwerk is very responsive. I emailed them about the wrong tripod height been listed for a Bogen digi tripod and they corrected it within 24 hrs.

Let us know if you do get the Oberwerk 12X50 roof. You'll be the first on CN to try one.

Erik D


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KennyJ

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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Erik D]
      #1423706 - 02/14/07 11:30 AM

Hello Andrew ,

I suppose this depends on what you mean by " HIGH " resolution .

The only roof prism binoculars I have are phase corrected .

As you possibly know , Zeiss introduced phase coating to roof prism binoculars , IIRC , in the late 1980s.

The reason given was to improve CONTRAST and RESOLUTION .

It didn't take long for the other leading manufacturers to follow suit .

Hundreds of experienced binocular users would seem to be in total agreement about the fact that phase correction DOES indeed improve the quality of image seen through roof prism binoculars , so from that , I can only presume that no matter how " high " resolution can be achieved through NON phase coated roofs , it will not be as high as WITH phase correction , or as high as is achieved by good quality Porro prisms .

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both



Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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mooreorless
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1423772 - 02/14/07 12:05 PM

I have a Swarovski 7x30SLC non phase coated roof from the early eighties that beat out a Nikon Action 7x35 using 1951 USAF resolution charts,the same day same conditions,if this helps.Walter Locke has used this binocular and liked it.
Regards,Steve

Edited by mooreorless (02/14/07 07:32 PM)


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wilash
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: mooreorless]
      #1424004 - 02/14/07 01:52 PM

Phase coatings are needed to increase "resolution." Take away the phase coatings and the image will degrade. The reason is that the design of roof prisms create a phase shift, the coatings attempt to correct for this.

Whether you can tell or care is another matter. Looking thought binos to judge image quality is a SUBJECTIVE test.


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pcad
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: wilash]
      #1424236 - 02/14/07 03:55 PM

I had asked Kevin about the new 12x50 roof prism bino also. I had left a message in the CloudyDays "Binocular News" thread a while back. Kevin confirmed that these do not have phase correction coatings. He had some overall positive comments about their performance, but it'll take someone to buy and compare them to a similar phase corrected bino to see how well they perform.

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm


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hallelujah
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: pcad]
      #1424327 - 02/14/07 04:42 PM

Garrett Optical sells a Classic 8x42mm DCF-TWP Triplet Phase-Coated Roof Prism Waterproof binocular for $185.

I would like to see someone do a test on this one.

--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/Japan
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/Japan
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/Japan
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP

Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth


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Upwards Tilt
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: hallelujah]
      #1424405 - 02/14/07 05:17 PM

There have been tests as it is also sold by William Optics as their 8x42 APO.

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patter1
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Upwards Tilt]
      #1424522 - 02/14/07 06:32 PM

Q: is the loss of resolution caused by lack of phase correction less noticeable at lower mags? In other words, at low enough magnifications, does phase correction become unnecessary (no noticeable benefit?)?

--------------------
Patrick

8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype


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mooreorless
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: wilash]
      #1424649 - 02/14/07 07:36 PM

Yes,roof prism splits the image and then brings it back together.You can see this if you look through the objective end,there is a diagonal line.A slight shift of the light and phase-coating is supposed to take care of this.
Steve

--------------------
Regards,Steve M

"the eights are better" Jim Carmichel of Outdoor Life magazine


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Erik D
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: patter1]
      #1424677 - 02/14/07 07:55 PM

Quote:

Q: is the loss of resolution caused by lack of phase correction less noticeable at lower mags? In other words, at low enough magnifications, does phase correction become unnecessary (no noticeable benefit?)?




My experience with 8X32, 10X42 and 12X50 Roof Prism is Phase Coating does make a difference if it's well executed. Image is brighter, colors more vivid. However, having PC by itself doesn't mean superior resolution. The pair of Eagle Optics 10X42 Denali I purchased showed dimmer image than my EO Platimum 8X32, poor resolution. I wouldn't want a pair even if they were selling for 1/2 the $189 asking price.

ERik D


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pcad
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Erik D]
      #1424723 - 02/14/07 08:19 PM

Like anything else, having one component work well doesn't mean the final product works well.

With any erecting system, the goal is to produce an upright, correct image while interfering with the quality of the image as little as possible. Phase coatings help minimize interference effects seen in roof prism systems.

What good does having excellent roof prisms do if the optics are not up to snuff? I'd rather have good optics with decent uncoated roof prisms than poor optics with excellent p-coated roof prisms.

Sense or no sense?

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm


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Erik D
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: pcad]
      #1424778 - 02/14/07 08:56 PM

Sense!

Erik D


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Upwards Tilt
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Erik D]
      #1424894 - 02/14/07 09:54 PM

I vote 'sense' as well.

Think about it, would you rather have a just pre-phase coatings Leitz or that Eagle Optics Denali PC?


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ronharper
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Upwards Tilt]
      #1424923 - 02/14/07 10:10 PM

At present there seems no clean test of the effect of phase coating without other important variables also changing and clouding the issue.

Perhaps some of the optics theory types over on the refractors forum could run one of their simulation programs and produce images of a bird, say, with and without phase coating and with, as we love to say here, everything else being equal. Hey, a bino is a refractor!

Ron


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sftonkin
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: ronharper]
      #1425237 - 02/15/07 03:05 AM

Phase coatings improve contrast. Resolution is a function of aperture.

--------------------
Stephen

Hindsight: The only truly diffraction-limited system


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Claudio
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: ronharper]
      #1425243 - 02/15/07 03:18 AM

Quote:

At present there seems no clean test of the effect of phase coating without other important variables also changing and clouding the issue.




Visit:

http://www.europa.com/~telscope/List.50-100.doc

Read:

Binocular List #61: 06 June 1999
Subject: On the effects of phase-corrected prisms in roof prism binoculars

There is a comparison of Zeiss 10x40B, 10x40 BT and 10x40BTP

Regards
Claudio


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ronharper
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: Claudio]
      #1425919 - 02/15/07 01:40 PM

Claudio,
Thanks, that is exactly what was needed. Field comparison shows the improvement with phase coating is dramatic, and much greater that that of multi over single layered antireflection coating.
Ron


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KennyJ

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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: ronharper]
      #1426023 - 02/15/07 02:40 PM

< Q: is the loss of resolution caused by lack of phase correction less noticeable at lower mags? In other words, at low enough magnifications, does phase correction become unnecessary (no noticeable benefit?)? >

Well Patrick ,

Considering that due to physical limitations , very few , if any , conventional roof prism binoculars have been made which have larger than 63mm objectives , with magnifications usually no higher than around 15x , then I suspect the improvement is noticeable at lower magnifications , and therefore beneficial .

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both



Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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patter1
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1426115 - 02/15/07 03:30 PM

Kenny: for low mags, I mean low relative to other binocs; so if you had a 12x30 and an 6x30 (both roof prism binocs without phase correction), would the detrimental effects of lack of phase correction be less noticeable in the lower mag binoc?

I suspect yes - for the same reason that lowering the magnification makes false color less easily visible to our eyes - by merely decreasing its apparent angular size.

--------------------
Patrick

8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype


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KennyJ

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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: patter1]
      #1426157 - 02/15/07 03:48 PM

Patrick ,

I'm not at all sure that proportional visibility of " false colour " PER magnification is an equation which can be reproduced accurately , or automatically assumed to be transposable to the amount by which phase coating improves contrast and resolution PER magnification .

In any case , it is a matter too technical for me .

I'm basing my assumptions and suggestions partly on my interpretation of what other , more knowledgable users than myself , have written , and on the fact that practically every big player in the binocular business has gone to the trouble of making sure all their top of the range roof prism models have phase correction .

If anyone can prove me wrong , I'll be a better educated person then than I am now :-)

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both



Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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wilash
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: sftonkin]
      #1426345 - 02/15/07 05:25 PM

Quote:

Resolution is a function of aperture.




Not true. The quality of optics do impact resolution - whether you want to discuss angular resolution or resolving power does not matter. Also you can optimize a system for contrast (accutance) or resolution, but not both at the same time. So aperture by itself is only the theoretical guide (and an old one at that). It will not give the actual resolution of an optical system.


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KennyJ

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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: wilash]
      #1426377 - 02/15/07 05:38 PM

I think what COULD missing from the original reported statement by Zeiss with regard to phase correction is the word " hence " .

Consider these two statements : ( both MY words )

< Phase correction improves contrast and resolution >

< Phase correction improves contrast , HENCE resolution >

Of the two , the second may be a more accurate way of expressing the TRUTH .

BUT -- the first option APPEARS more dramatic and sounds better from a " marketing viewpoint " without actually telling a lie .

What do YOU think about this interpretation ?

Yes -- YOU !

ANYONE ? :-)

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both



Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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wilash
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1426379 - 02/15/07 05:42 PM

Well, it is very hard to separate "contrast" and "resolution." They are not the same thing, but they do influence each other. I would say in practical terms, we would be nitpicking over those two very simple statements.

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pcad
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Re: Resolution and phase-correction new [Re: wilash]
      #1426784 - 02/15/07 09:37 PM

What's the difference between a porro prism and a roof prism? Mostly how they're used, IMHO.

They're both essentially 90° plano mirrors. This enables either prism to flip the image left to right or up and down depending on the orientation of the prism.

A porro prism is a roof prism with the roof edge ground off. A roof prism is a porro prism where the reflecting surfaces (planes) meet in an edge (line).

One could easily construct a first class porro style binocular using roof prisms that are not phase corrected.

The huge difference between porro and roof prisms is that the light cone stradles both reflective surfaces and the edge in a roof prism and is reflected sequentially in a porro prism.

Another odd thing about roof prisms is that if the reflecting surfaces are oriented like a porro prism, the reflection is not offset and is directed right back in the opposite direction from where it came from. To get around this, the incident light has to hit the reflecting surfaces at an oblique angle. Not a big problem, just interesting.

This straddling imposes stringent demands on the manufacturing of roof prisms in order to make the reflection visually acceptable. Forget about phase shifts for the time being. The faces have to be FLAT, they have to be ORTHOGONAL, and the edge has to be a STRAIGHT KNIFE-EDGE. Wierd things happen when roof prisms are not well made. These things don't happen in the sequential reflections of a porro prism.

Since one half of the light hits reflecting surface #1 then #2 and the other half hits reflecting surface #2 then #1, these surfaces and their intersection have to be nearly perfect for a roof mirror to pass itself off as a plano mirror with a reversed image. Can this be done, of course and is done every time a roof prism is made. The exacting tolerences do make them harder to make and therefore more expensive, which is common knowlage.

What about phase? I may be wrong, but I think that if a roof mirror or prism is made theorectically perfect, it would not need phase correction coatings. It may even be possible to make prisms to this tolerance, but not be economical to do so. The phase error originates in the splitting and recombining of an image that happens in roof mirrors. Small errors in the path length will produce phase errors when the image is recombined on it's way out of the prism.

How can these small errors be eliminated or minimized. One way is to always make perfect prisms. Another is to "post-process" the prism to reduce these errors. This can be done by adding or removing material in microscopic amounts. Phase coating implies adding material. The coating process is more than capable of laying down incredibly thin, accurate layers of material to a substrate. If the material has an index of refraction close to, or equal to, the substrate it will effectively enlarge the substrate. This process could be used to fine tune the geometry of a prism to minimze this phase error without the labor intensive effort to make "perfect" prisms.

I mentioned that the problem could be approached by adding or removing material from the prism surface. I'm not aware of making phase corrected prisms through the removal of material (other than good old polishing), but it should be possible. The lasers used in refractive surgery can only remove corneal tissue to correct the optics of an eye. These lasers also work on plastic and likely other materials as well. Are they accurate enough to sculpt roof prisms, maybe, maybe not, but they weren't designed to. Perhaps laser ablation will have a role in making optical surfaces when the right person puts his mind to it.

The above is offered as food for thought only. I'm not an optical engineer and my views on this whole subject may be way off base. Feel free to correct any errors so I can learn also.

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm


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holger_merlitz
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Phase shift of polarization! new [Re: pcad]
      #1426908 - 02/15/07 10:43 PM

Hello Peter,

Your assumptions about the origin of the phase shift are unfortunately incorrect. In fact, what happens is the following:

During any reflection, including the process of total reflection inside a prism, unpolarized light becomes partially polarized. Obviously, this is the case in both Porro and roof prisms. The difference is: Using Porro prisms, the light will finally enter the eye being partially polarized, which does not matter. In a roof prism, however, the beam is split in two partial beams, as you have correctly described above. Now one has to consider that the polarization of light defines a kind of direction; during the following reflections, the direction of this polarization vector is changed, but unfortunately, it is changed differently in both partial beams. Once they are rejoined, both polarization vectors do not coincide, they define an angle between each other (which is called 'phase shift', or geometric phase, or Berry phase). As a result, an interference takes place which is disturbing the airy disk of a point-like source. How it looks like, is shown here:
http://www.zbirding.info/zbirders/blogs/sing/archive/2006/08/09/189.aspx

Therefore, the phase shift has nothing to do with different path lengths of partial beams - it is a shift of directions their polarization vectors. Even perfectly constructed roof prisms would exhibit such a geometric phase. In turn, the phase shift coating cannot correct for inaccuracies of the prism's geometry, but it makes both polarization vectors coincide when the partial beams are rejoined.

Best,
Holger


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pcad
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Re: Phase shift of polarization! new [Re: holger_merlitz]
      #1426977 - 02/15/07 11:31 PM

Hello Holger,

Darn, and here I had just bought stock in the local laser manufacturer.

I still find it interesting that porro prisms need no p-coating and the roofs do. Thank's very much for the link and the explanation.

Not having a formal education in optics has been frustrating to me on more than one occasion when these topics have come up in the past.

Although polarization has been mentioned in this situation before, it wasn't made clear enough for me to understand the reasoning behind it.

One reason I doubted the polarization explanation is that the human visual system has poor sensitivity to polarization of light.

Another reason is the analogy with AR coatings where the coating thickness causes a second out-of-phase reflection that cancels out the reflection from the substrate.

Thanks,
Peter

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm


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ronharper
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Re: Phase shift of polarization! new [Re: holger_merlitz]
      #1426996 - 02/15/07 11:43 PM