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Art Bianconi
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Ceramic mirror development begins
      #1554752 - 04/19/07 08:12 PM

With me working full time for a wealthy client I have a little more discretionary income so I elected to pursue making a ceramic mirror like I discussed here at CN a few months back.

I looked around quite a bit but only found one supplier of a ceramic material with low C of TE, McMaster (part # 8498K11)

Impatient and anxious to get started, I began looking for a Pottery class with a kiln.

Today I got a return call from the owner and head instructor of such a school. I told her what I wanted to do and she got very excited at the idea of being a part of such an experiment.

Turns out she has two telescopes and subscribes to Sky & Tel!

She and her husband will be attending North East Astronomy Forum (NEAF) this month! I will meet them there!

Common sense suggests I start with something of a modest aperture, say 8" and with a modest F ratio, perhaps F/6.

Since I have an absolutely lovely Pyrex mirror from Gordon Waite, with just those numbers, I have a exacting standard to compare the ceramic mirror against.

Stay tuned!

Art

Edited by Art Bianconi (04/20/07 12:26 AM)


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MMICKELSAdministrator
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1554769 - 04/19/07 08:22 PM

I've used ceramic inserts for machining, and can tell you that they are pretty abrasion resistant. Figuring and polishing out a ceramic blank might make you look like the "Hulk".

--------------------
Mark


"The only thing wrong with immortality is that it tends to go on forever."

Herb Caen






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llanitedave
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: MMICKELS]
      #1554782 - 04/19/07 08:32 PM

I'd really like to see how this works out. Possibly because ceramic blanks are potentially more available in "nonstandard" sizes, since one can in principle make them from scratch rather than having to melt and anneal pyrex.

I'm at the edge of my seat -- but hurry. I don't know how long I can keep the seat from tipping over!

--------------------

"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror


Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!


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stillalearnin
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: llanitedave]
      #1554936 - 04/19/07 09:55 PM

ive never heard of this before. my mom happens to have a 3 ft wide by 4 ft deep kiln that she uses for firing her pottery.

--------------------
The man on the street does not know a star in the sky -Ralph Waldo Emerson



"Midnight Express" Orion XT10 w/ Telrad
2" crayford, and walmart special flocking
SA 8mm 60deg afov
GSO 32mm SuperPlossl
GSO 2X 1.25 Barlow
Orion SkyGlow Broadband filter
Olympus Evolt E-500
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Art Bianconi
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: MMICKELS]
      #1555162 - 04/20/07 12:10 AM

Mark the ceramic is not polished at all. It is pregenerated while in the wet clay state to an approximate sagitta.

Then it's allowed to dry thoroughly. Then it's rough ground again enough to insure a spherical curve.

Then it's fired at 900 degrees (?) I believe. Now it's hard ceramic. It can still be rough ground with 80 grit and with a conventional tile/dental stone tool.

Now it's ready for glazing. When that is done, the entire blank will be coated with a glass hard glaze.

I'll test it of course just to see how good a surface it is at that stage but I do not expect to stop there. I fully expect to fine grind the surface irregularities away and figure the surface as I would any other blank.

If it doesn't compromise the glaze, I will go with a cobolt blue coating for the entire mirror. Won't that look cool: a deep plue "mirror" with an aluminized "dish"!

Art


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Scott Milligan
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1555207 - 04/20/07 12:40 AM

Art, by strange coincidence, your project exactly "mirrors" one that I've also considered, at least to the point of ordering my own castable ceramic kit from Mcmaster. I'm curious though, to learn more about what plans you might have for the glazing. Keep us posted, and I'll do the same.

Scott Milligan


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refractory
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Scott Milligan]
      #1555216 - 04/20/07 12:48 AM

Sounds like you'll be giving a whole new meaning to the term 'pottery barn telescope'....

Jess Tauber


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joseph07081
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: refractory]
      #1555382 - 04/20/07 05:46 AM

I have been thinking about something along these lines for years. I am anxious to see how it all pans out.

--------------------
Joe


Orion XT10
Konus 130 Mak
Konus CG5 clone (fresh tuneup)
Surplus Shed 80/400
Meade 10x50's
CPC900NC camera (my new toy)
Baader 21mm Hyperion
An oddball assortment of eyepieces and barlows...


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Mark Harry
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: joseph07081]
      #1555412 - 04/20/07 06:39 AM

Maybe it'll solve the supply/price issue dealing with pyrex blanks--- I noticed the prices have gone up appreciably.
Mark

--------------------
Scopes in the works-
Too many for putting down here! Favorites- 8" F/6, 8" F/4.72, 4.5" F/5.4, 14" F/4.455, all completed.


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John Carruthers
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1555434 - 04/20/07 07:06 AM

A fascinating project Art, hope it works, how long will it be in the lehr cooling down?

--------------------
Jc

ATM 10" F6.1, 1/25th wave spec (max wavefront error +/- 1/12.6 in zone 4 of 6, sodium light )
6" F7 spec
127mm F9.4 Refractor
10 x 50 bin
ETX80 (finder)
Canon 20D
and a curious mind



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Art Bianconi
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Scott Milligan]
      #1555519 - 04/20/07 08:27 AM

The pottery instructor is convinced that I can buy the same or better material in smaller quantities from her supplier. I have thus put off buying the Aluminum-Silica from McMasters until I have had an opportunity to spend time at the pottery school.

There are any number of glazes available for this or we can place a sheet of glass on top of the mirror blank, fire up the kiln and then simply go past the intermediate "slumping" phase to a less viscous stage where the glass actually flows. She says they do this often.

Dare I buy a thin plate of Pyrex for this purpose? Or, should I go with her suggestion of using a porcelain glaze which is, she says, a harder material? I believe that it's important that both the glaze and the substrate expand at the same rate or risk failure of the glaze.

I expressed concern about the glaze cracking over time. She said that is the one area where her reputation excels, Her glazes don't crack.

She did express some concern when I suggested that the blank be 1-1/2 to 2" thick. Clay made that thick may warp some during the drying stage and perhaps again when the "green" item is fired.

There are many unanswered questions. I suspect that there will be several iterations of the process before we finally come up with an acceptable blank ready for figuring.

One thing is clear: ceramic mirrors do not lend themselves to interference testing. You have to be able to see through the back of the mirror to see the interface. Obviously, you can't do that with ceramic mirrors.

The key thing to keep in mind is that the surface finish and shape of the ceramic is not critical. The sagitta only has to be approximated and left rough. The finish can be rough in much the same manner that a pregenerated blank is. In fact, it may prove beneficial to have the sagitta finish rough to enhance the mechanical bond of the glaze. I simply do not know.

It's the glaze that gets polished and figured. Given how slick glazes are coming out of the oven, that should not take as much effort (he said crossing his fingers).

I am unsure how thick a glaze can be in order to support the removal that takes place during figuring.

I am also unsure how the thickness of the glaze is affected when applied to a concave surface. When heated will it flow towards the center and be thicker there then at at the edges?

John, the temperatures are ramped up by computer, maintained during the firing process and then ramped down, so as to avoid thermal shock.

Are we having fun yet?

"And so it goes"

Art


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Wes James
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1556070 - 04/20/07 12:47 PM

Art-
Certainly an interesting project.... might it be wise to run several at a time with slight differences to see which works out best?
Best of luck with the project... not long ago I read the book "The Perfect Machine"- the story of building the mirror for the Palomar telescope- and then the scope itself.. seems like a "Mini" version of the project- working in unknown areas to create a new way of doing things. I do agree with her on one thing, though- the thickness issue is going to present problems, I think.
Best of luck!

--------------------
Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL

Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O

"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers


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DAVIDG
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Wes James]
      #1556229 - 04/20/07 02:05 PM

Art,
I recommend that you read the Sky and Telescope article by Donald Dillworth from the 1970's that outlined his work which is exactly what you are trying to do and why it failed. He made a number of ceramic blanks as large as 16" in diameter. He cast them with a rough curve in them, glazed them and tried to figure them without success.
If you have I would be very interested to know what you plan to do different to over come the problems that he found.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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Bill Cheng
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #1556463 - 04/20/07 03:54 PM

Dave,
There you go again. Trying to spoil Art's fun. It's not how many projects one gets done. It's clearly about how many project one has going. Bill

--------------------
Bill


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Art Bianconi
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #1556644 - 04/20/07 05:11 PM

Hi Dave!

I went to Sky & Tel and did as you suggested but was unable to find anything on ceramic mirrors or Donald Dillworth.

A Google search did yield a report that two men in the Portsmouth area had made two mirrors using fired ceramic. I found the head of the ATM group for that area and have asked if he can provide contact info.

I also found a website that is devoted to firing ceramics and which has a wealth of info there or via links.

Firing Ceramics software

Every ceramic specialist I spoke with swears by the software and assures me that glazing for a mirror is now easy. The guy who developed it is a degreed chemist. I won't have to buy it myself since the kiln owner and pottery specialist I will be using has it. She and her husband will be at NEAF. If you are going to NEAF and interested, I will introduce you three.

Thanks

Art


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Art Bianconi
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Bill Cheng]
      #1556684 - 04/20/07 05:30 PM

Bill wrote: "It's not how many projects one gets done. It's clearly about how many project one has going."

It does look like that doesn't it Bill. And, if you only looked into the domains of pastimes, fun and games, you would see a lot of projects going on at the same time. Some projects will never get finished; some will take forever to get done; some will get done and will collect dust afterwards. It's what I am experiencing along the way and learning that matters most to me. The individual project is simply an excuse for action.

When projects drag on for too long, the novelty ceases. So, I set that thing aside for a while and pick up a new one or an old one that is waiting.

But that behavior is only in the areas of fun and games. Fortunately, most of my life is about fun and games.

"And so it goes"

Art


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RandyR
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1556714 - 04/20/07 05:48 PM

Wow! This is an interesting concept.

When I was in college - a LONG time ago, I was classmates with a guy in Calculus who was working on one of the first degrees in "ceramics engineering". He was saying that there is virtually no shape that can't be made from ceramic materials, and that their characteristics are highly adjustable based on the chemical properties of the "raw clay".

With the advances in coatings/glazing materials, and for that matter in ceramic materials themselves, you OUGHT to be able to create just about anything you want.

I will be watching this thread with great interest. I'm not really wanting to duplicate (or even attempt) the effort, just interested in the outcome.

--------------------
"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"

RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch





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DAVIDG
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1556733 - 04/20/07 06:02 PM

Art,
The articles are on page 259 of Oct. 1975 and pages 202 and 203 of March 1976 Sky and Telescopes. It was problems with the physical properities of the glaze, uniform thickness of the glaze, and major problems with mechanical strength causing astigmastism were just a few of the problems.
All of which he wasn't able to overcome. His technique looks to be the same as yours.
The expertise in making ceramic pottery are different from the very demanding requirements needed to make a mechanical stable substrait needed to hold an optical figure. If it was simple and cheap then major optical glass manufactors would have jumped on this idea and Celestron, Meade and others would all have these types of mirrors.
Even if the economics weren't there, but this type of mirror offered superior properities, there would be examples available. So far I've seen none. Both of which tells me that this problem is much more difficult then it first seems to be.
Good luck with your experiments.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.

Edited by DAVIDG (04/20/07 07:22 PM)


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Ed Jones
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: Art Bianconi]
      #1556813 - 04/20/07 06:39 PM

Art,
I experimented with porcelain once making a 3 inch disk and had it fired then fired with a thin piece of glass laid on it. I found that when it cooled the glass just sloughed off probably because the CE of the glass and porcelain didn't match. I didn't want to try pottery clay because it's porous and might outgass in a coater. porcelain isn't porous. I think this could work if you can get the glazing thick enough that you won't grind through it when making it spherical. Good luck!

--------------------
Ed Jones




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Art Bianconi
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Re: Ceramic mirror development begins new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #1556994 - 04/20/07 08:36 PM

Thanks Dave. I'll see if I can find those readings.

I'm gambling that the dramatic breakthroughs we've seen in all aspects of science and technology also encompass ceramics and their coatings.

If I luck out, new materials and new methods will have evolved over the last 32 years, some of which will deal me a better hand than he had.

Thanks.

See you at NEAF?


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