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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2358
Loc: Boothwyn, PA
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see here
Wow, what a difference, my WO binoviewers must be out of collimation! I am glad I found a BV set (the denk standard) that I could merge much more easily. I still had to relax a bit instead of the usual stressing "Why can't I merge?" and it took a minute before a tiny ~30x view of jupiter would merge. (First I tried a distant streetlight and it worked great!) I thought I could say ok now I am finally "BV trained" with the help of the Denks, I might be able to use the WO binos. Unfortunately for my wallet, no, the WOs will have to be sent back for the collimation issue. Fortunately it is not my eyes/brain. I didnt use any OCA with the denks, so to focus in my WO M90 I had to use them straight through with no diagonal. I had been using a 2x OCA with the WO set, so perhaps the lower magnification made it easier for me. I still had to relax a minute before a tiny Jupiter would merge, and I was using a flimsy photo tripod that didn't help keeping the images steady.
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Meade RCX400 30cm --
People dont like when I stick up for Meade but they're just jealous of my RCX
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RandyR
Enginerd
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 14181
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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I'm pretty sure it's a problems with the WOs. The Denks are a more advanced device...
-------------------- "Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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NewAstronomer
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 09/03/04
Posts: 2690
Loc: Scranton, PA U.S.A
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure it's a problems with the WOs. The Denks are a more advanced device...
My WO's merge just fine in multiple scopes....
-------------------- Chris
AT66ED f/6
C80ED f/7.5
10" GSO Dob f/5
SVP w/ autoguide mod
Oly E-500 DSLR, DSI-P, DSI-C, NexImage
Edited by NewAstronomer (07/16/07 08:37 AM)
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RandyR
Enginerd
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 14181
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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Many/Most of the WOs will, but they're like their 'cousins' in that the prisms and EP holders aren't adjustable. Thus once in a while someone will run into one that just won't merge for them.
A lot of people have found that rotating the EPs in the holders, or loosening one screw and re-tightening may solve the problem.
That is what I was referring to...
-------------------- "Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2358
Loc: Boothwyn, PA
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Whew, first clear night in a while ('twas forecast to rain and be cloudy all night!) so I tried the Denks this time on the Meade AR5 refrator (straight thru, my neck hurts a little now!) and my "manual" LXD75 mount (Meade is going to repair the electronics for me, I just have to ship to them - see the Mounts forum) Darnit I couldn't merge at all. The moon looked like it did when I first tried out my William Optics BV... a big "DD" in the eyepieces. After an hour or so trying to relax, I was going to take everything inside when ok let's just try a terrestrial object. I focused on a rooftop reasonably far away and bam no effort merging! So I try the moon again, it is a lot coser to being merged than before, I blink my eyes quickly a couple times, and BAM... 3D!!
Weird that it took so long to get it "back" but maybe I was out of practice. I was then merging with no eyestrain at all it was quite comfortable again.
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Meade RCX400 30cm --
People dont like when I stick up for Meade but they're just jealous of my RCX
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grids
super member
   
Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 186
Loc: Home of TJ
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Is it possible that your eyes might now merge the images from your WO BVs...?
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2358
Loc: Boothwyn, PA
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Last time I did try that, and there was a distinct difference between the two. The denk would merge a terrestrial object, the WO would not.
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Meade RCX400 30cm --
People dont like when I stick up for Meade but they're just jealous of my RCX
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RandyR
Enginerd
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 14181
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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Joseph, I have a question I don't think anyone's asked you yet. Have you had anyone else try looking through the binos you're having trouble with?
-------------------- "Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12789
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Weird that it took so long to get it "back" but maybe I was out of practice. I was then merging with no eyestrain at all it was quite comfortable again.
There are really only a couple of issues at play here. Either you have eye problems or the binoviewer is not collimated fine enough to be within the tollerances of your eyes. But assuming you at least have set the BV to the proper interpupilary distance for your eyes, a function that is probably second nature for most people, then there is not much else. I get a real kick when I read this Quote:
Weird that it took so long to get it "back" but maybe I was out of practice.
When you need to "practice" to merge images, you are training your eyes to strain (whether mild or severe) to accomodate misalignment of the images. This probably means the merging of the images is not within tollerance for your eyesight. Incredibly, some people can accept an extremely wide error, yet many, if not most others, have a low tollerance for error.
There are allowable tollerances for collimation. The tollerances get much tighter as magnification increases. These tollerances are published in any number of optics handbooks, particularly in the sections dealing with binocular adjustment. A 7x or 8x binocular with 2 to 3 arcmin miscollimation won't look bad at all. However, in a 25x binocular with even 50 to 60 arcseconds of miscollimation it may be difficult to merge images. You can guess what is required of binoviewers that are used at magnifications of 75x, 100x, 150x and more.
Do you know how to let your eyes relax so you can measure miscollimation? Are you familiar with some double stars so you can test collimation on a double star of known separation? This gives you a benchmark separation from which you can determine the severity of miscollimation. Generally, for testing binoviewers at very high power the target stars chosen must be much closer, on the order of 10-20 arcseconds.
An excellent double to test collimation is Nu (v) Draco. It has a separation of 62". It's like having a 1 arcmin measuring device in your image. If your low power binocular collimation is within 2 or 3 times the separation of Nu Draco, you may want to just leave it alone. BUT if you are using a binoviewer at say 75x, and the alignment error you see when observing nu Draco is even only half as wide as the separation of the pair, you've got some problems. If you want to use that same binoviewer at 150x, the error correction needs to be closer than one quarter of the separation in nu Draco.
Generally there are three collimation errors to be concerned about. For all collimation misalignments, the allowable error in image displacement is smaller as magnification increases. Actually the results are measured in apparent visual error, the angular error multiplied by the magnification.
Vertical Alignment, a serious error, is when one image is higher than the other image. The eyes have no muscles to accommodate for vertical error. The allowable divergence is only 4 arcmin at 7x to 10x, only 3 arcmin at 12x to 15x and 2 arcminutes at 15x to 20x.
Note that these allowable tollerance ranges for Vertical error are almost equal. They are apparent error of 28-40, 36-45 and 30-40. You can get an average from this that the allowable apparent error for Vertical misalignment is 35-40 arcminutes apparent. Personally, I cannot tollerate even 2 to 3 arcminutes of vertical error even at magnifications of 10x and only 1 arcmin at 16x, So my tollerance level for vertical error is closer to 20 arcmin apparent error.
Binoviewing is not any different. The allowable tollerances do not change. By use of high magnification, the need for alignment to be more critical is increased. As an example, 20 arcmin is 1200 arcseconds. So, at my tollerance level, a binoviewer that is measured to be out of alignment by only 12 arcseconds vertical error will show as not merged when used at any powers over 100x. Below 100x, my eyes would accomodate and it will do fine.
The other errors of misalignment are:
Horizontal Convergence, the least problematic error, is when the image in the right eyepiece is to the left of the image in the left eyepiece. You might think of this as cross-eyed. The most separation can be tolerated in horizontal convergence, 10 arcmin at 7x to 10x (70-100), 8 arcmin at 12x to 15x (96-120) and 6 arcmin at 15x to 20x (90-120). Most eyes can readily accommodate this error, but these limits I find a little too wide. I could not tollerate even half that much.
Horizontal Divergence, another serious error, is when the image in the right eyepiece is to the right of the image in the left eyepiece. The images are spread apart, an error that the eyes cannot accommodate without strain. The allowable error for horizontal divergence is 6 arcmin at 7x to 10x (42-60) and only 4 arcmin at 12x to 15x (48-60) and 3 arcmin at 15x to 20x (45-60).
If your binoviewer does not fall within these tollerance ranges, you will NOT get that instant merging feeling when you view. Your eyes may be able to accomodate, but not without working to do so.
Keep in mind, the magnification of your binoviewer has a significant influence on how you see this error. Your eyes see the apparent error, or the angular error multiplied by the magnification. For instance a 1 arcminute error in a 25x binocular will appear to have a magnified apparent size of 25 arcminutes. That same 1 arcminute error in a 150x binoviewer would have an error of 150 arcminutes. At that power, the images would look like they are in two different states.
For reference 1 inch at 100 yards is just slightly less than 1 arcminute.
I've measured the error in my Stellervue B3. And for those that might suggest all those little methods I've heard, there is no eliminating the error by rotating eyepieces or pressing on one side or the other. I've rotated half a dozen pairs of eyepieces that did absolutely nothing to change the error. I've pressed on the eyepieces and that's fine, if I want to hold it that way I can correct it, but as soon as the pressure is released, it goes right back to the exact same error.
My SVB3 is out by about 10-15 arcseconds. It's a combination of Horizontal Divergence and Vertical Error. This is often the case. Now that error seems small, binocular manufacturers could only hope to achieve such closely merged images. Few binoculars that I own are merged to within that close. Even in a binoviewer, that amount of error can barely be detected at 50x to 75x. BUT at 200x it's more than my eyes can accomodate. My SVB3 will not handle 200x, but it's fine at 125x-150x.
My Denk Big Easy has a smaller error, but is not without error. However, at all the magnifications I've used it, it merges almost instantly. I haven't used it at anything over 200x. The SVB3 can be seen to take a few seconds at magnifications ~150x.
This in not a matter of "practice". This is eyestrain. It may be minor, but it's eyestrain. If you need to "practice" to merge images in a binoviewer, then the unit is not within tollerances for your eyes.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2358
Loc: Boothwyn, PA
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edz, I knew my last post would raise your eyebrow especially the part about practicing. perhaps practice is the wrong word. let me clarify I wasn't doing anything different or crossing my eyes on purpose. the first time w/ the denks and WO side by side the denk merged right away no problems. this time though it didn't at first. I might have taken the eyepieces out and put them back to make sure they were properly seated. then I went to my 8x42 binocs....merged fine. then tried the rooftop in the scope, and it worked again! i'm guessing I was at about 40-50x. I went to the moon and it looked great. when it worked I didn't seem to be straining at all, or are you talking about eyestrain you can't feel. I didn't get a headache I was amazed at the view. IIRC last time I used my megrez on a photo tripod and the shakiness may have actually helped, according to some people who say tapping the tube helps them. but that might fall under "practice" that we're not supposed to do...
I also notice slightly different colors too one side a little bluer the other a little redder.
SO I am happy that I merged ok after all, I'm not the first one to say that it took some "getting used to" (maybe that is better than saying "practice") let's just be happy about that.
The depth of field and 3D effect is terrific, I see what I was missing before.
Good idea to check double stars though, I will try that when I can!
--------------------
Meade RCX400 30cm --
People dont like when I stick up for Meade but they're just jealous of my RCX
Edited by Joseph Gillman (07/24/07 09:04 AM)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2358
Loc: Boothwyn, PA
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Quote:
Joseph, I have a question I don't think anyone's asked you yet. Have you had anyone else try looking through the binos you're having trouble with?
When I first got the WO's I had a friend come over with his siebert binoviewers. he had difficulty merging in my WO set but was fine in his pair that he was "used to" (there I go again, edz ) I couldn't really merge in either pair, it was my first attempt at BVing. The guy I bought the denks from said he had some merging problems on the moon, but not for star clusters and dimmer objects.
Edit: I should note that this first side by side try was with the RCX 12, so magnification was pretty high for a newbie.
--------------------
Meade RCX400 30cm --
People dont like when I stick up for Meade but they're just jealous of my RCX
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dvb
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/18/05
Posts: 2044
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"lucky" you that you have merge problems with your "less expensive BVs". I can't get my new (expensive) Televues to merge at 64x, and I understand they generally are well-collimated before they are shipped.
I guess I'll try a few more nights before heading to the optometrist for an eye exam.
-------------------- Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 Newt on Matilda
Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 Collapsible Dob
Meade 8" SN f/4
Celestron C8 SCT
Celestron C6 SCT
Skywatcher ED100
Skywatcher ED80
EQ6 Pro "Matilda"
AT Voyager
Skymaster 15x70
Mallincam HyperColor Plus
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RandyR
Enginerd
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 14181
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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It is possible for TV Binos to get out of collimation, however they should be adjustable. You can always send them to TV for repair, they are GOOD about servicing their products.
-------------------- "Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6881
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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I have the Burgess BV's (very similar to the WO), and to get better merging, you have to adjust the nylon set screws on the eyepiece holders to shift eyepiece location slightly, as they have some space around the eyepiece barrel intended for this sort of adjustment. Once set, the eyepiece holder can then be rotated a bit until you get the best merging (you will have to also move the eyepiece in or out to compensate for the changed focal distance). Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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cirrus
super member
Reged: 05/10/03
Posts: 174
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EDz, that was the best explanation I have seen so far regarding bino-alignment. I remember observing Omega centauri one night with some preety fancy Fuginon binoculars. I think they were 25x80s, (yes they were on a very nice binocular mount). Although my 8" scope offered a brighter view of the cluster, the binocular view was mesmerizing in its 3D effect. After maybe 10 minutes of viewing I reluctantly turned over the binocs back to the owner and man was I dizzy afterward. The dizzines and mild headache lasted for a good 20 minutes. I do not remember having much problem merging the image at first but I guess that whatever missalignment there was was enough to strain my eyes.
From what you said regarding binoviewer alignment I guess high-power planetary observing with binoviewers is a no go.
cirrus
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