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Pinewood
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Reged: 12/07/04
Posts: 696
Loc: 40.77638º N 73.982652 W
Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Rich N]
      #1769903 - 08/10/07 01:28 PM

Quote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the link to Kimmo's review.

Sorry if I missed this somewhere but do you know if the Nikon 8x20 HG L DCF is the same as the Nikon LX L 8x20?

Thanks,
Rich




Rich,

I believe that may be the case, where HG was used in Europe rather than LX.

Happy observing,
Arthur

--------------------
Bread is not enough. We demand circuses!


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Bob A (SD)
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Rich N]
      #1769945 - 08/10/07 01:48 PM

Quote:

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the link to Kimmo's review.

Sorry if I missed this somewhere but do you know if the Nikon 8x20 HG L DCF is the same as the Nikon LX L 8x20?

Thanks,
Rich




If I'm not mistaken the HG L is the same as the LX which was replaced by the LX-L. Main difference being the change to lead free glass which many have opined was a step backwards in optical quality. See the thread in this forum about leaded glass for more info.

--------------------
Bob
N44°0'19" W-103°18'8"
-Intes-Micro MN56/Moonlite CR2/Antares 8x50RACI
-SkyWatcher EQ6 SynScan v3.21/Hanna saddle head/Casady saddle/Losmandy dovetail
-StellaCam II/10" RS monitor/Hauppauge WinTV-USB2/Mogg 0.6X
-Speers-Waler SWA 5-8/10/24.7mm; Russell SWA 13/19mm; Kunming SWA 32mm; UO Abbe 5/7/9mm; TV PowerMate 2.5x
-Criterion RV-6 Dynascope
-Bins: 7x42B SLC; 8x32DCF-WP/9x21UCF; BD6.5x32IF; 9x35IF GoldRing/8x30Yosemite; Orion 9x63;
8.5x42 11°; 7x35s 11.5°, 11° & 10.5°; 6x30 12.5°


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KennyJ

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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Bob A (SD)]
      #1769986 - 08/10/07 02:09 PM

Bob ,

As others have mentioned , that particular range of Nikon roofs has gone through several name changes , as well as changes in weight and glass content .

Originally called Venturer ,and LX in the US , it then became more widely known as High Grade or HG , especially in Europe , before the lighter versions became the HGL ( or High Grade Lightweight , or indeed LXL ) , at which time the name " Premier " seemed to creep into the title in some quarters , especially in America .

The DCF simply means Roof prism / centre focus , the D being an abbreviation of the German wword " Dach " - meaning roof .

In addition to the above , occasionally when in conversation with myself about these models , I refer to the originals as VTWs (Venturer Ton Weights ) and the lighter versions as the HGLFs ( High Grade Lead Free )

I think Brock occasionally refers to the newer models as the HGRBs ( High Grade Rolling Balls ) ! :-)

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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edwincjones
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Jared]
      #1770151 - 08/10/07 03:34 PM

Quote:

I know you are looking at the pockets, but if you determine they won't work out for you due to small exit pupil and ergonomics...

Definitely look at the Nikon 8x32 SE's. They are right at your price point when ordered over the web and provide superb views. The problems are:
--Much larger than the compacts you are looking at; you'd have to give up on putting them in a pocket
--Not waterproof
--Don't have the coolness factor of roof prisms

What the DO have going for them is probably the best views possible in your price range.




What do the Nikon SEs have that he does not already have with the Swift Audubons?

edj

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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hallelujah
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: edwincjones]
      #1770617 - 08/10/07 08:27 PM

Bob,

Here's something that I thought you might enjoy reading:

http://www.binoculars.org/birding/Reviews/Nikon/ProStaffATB8x25.html

--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP

Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth


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BobinKy
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1025
Loc: Country road
Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Jared]
      #1772110 - 08/11/07 09:22 PM

Jared:

Thank you for the suggestions.

This evening, at twilight, I discovered another use for pockets (and large pockets) while driving home from the grocery store, along a road next to some government property.

A herd of deer were grazing beside the road in front of a wooded area (no fences on either side of the road). I stopped, as did all of the cars. I counted the deer--there were 3 bucks, 10 does, and eight fawns. The antlers of the bucks were covered with velvet and the fawns, just like Bambi's, all had spots. Watching them run across the road gave me more than a thrill!

Which binoculars would have been good for that spur-of-the-moment observation?

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



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BobinKy
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Pinewood]
      #1772115 - 08/11/07 09:24 PM

Arthur:

Thanks for clearing up the model names of the Nikon 8x20s.

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



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BobinKy
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: Bob A (SD)]
      #1772119 - 08/11/07 09:27 PM

Bob A:

Thanks for the reference to the lead free glass. I will have to go back and read that thread again.

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



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BobinKy
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1772126 - 08/11/07 09:30 PM

Kenny:

Thank you for the lesson on changes to Nikon model names.

I always hate hunting for the specs of a Nikon because sometimes I am not sure which model name came first.

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



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BobinKy
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Posts: 1025
Loc: Country road
Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: edwincjones]
      #1772143 - 08/11/07 09:49 PM

Quote:

edwincjones:

What do the Nikon SEs have that he does not already have with the Swift Audubons?




Yes--that's one of the things I am trying to work through. I love my Swift Audubon EDs. I wish there was a way to shrink them down for my pockets/big pockets application. I also want the pockets/big pockets binoculars to have improvements over the Swift Audubon's eyecups and diopter.

Right now, here is my short list:
    Pockets (<4.0 inches height)
    Leica 8x20mm BCR Ultravid
    Nikon 8x20mm Premier LX L

    Big Pockets (4.0-5.5 inches height)
    Minox HG 8x33 BR
    Pentax 8x32mm DCF ED <-- <-- <--
The Pentax leads the quest!

Ed & others--



I want to thank everyone for all of your excellent suggestions. You have really educated me in a few days about a very unique type of binoculars.

I am still interested in any opinions and suggestions.

I will keep posting my progress on the quest--to walk around with quality glass in my pocket.



--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



Edited by BobinKy (08/12/07 11:06 AM)


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BobinKy
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Posts: 1025
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: hallelujah]
      #1772174 - 08/11/07 10:11 PM

hallelujah:

Thank you for the link to the review of the Nikon ProStaff 8x25.

As I mentioned in an earlier link, I have a Nikon Travelite V 8x25, which I purchased many years ago. It has served me well. The purpose of the current quest is to obtain better optics and ergonomics. Although the ProStaff is an improvement over the Travelite, I am aiming higher this time around.

I also appreciate the secondary link to the Review of 75 Birding Binoculars by Kenneth Rosenberg (2005) of the Cornell Lab of Ornithology.

. . .

Ed, I must tell you and Joe O. that I am leaning toward the Pentax 8x32 DCF ED. It is $99 or so above my budget, however the specs read like what I am searching for. Next week when I get to the "try out for 30 days" phase of my quest--I will be able to tell if the Pentax will suit my needs--to walk around with quality optics in my BIG pockets.

Thank you again for all of your help.

Keep reading this thread for my quest updates.

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



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BobinKy
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1773604 - 08/12/07 07:19 PM

Here are two reviews of compacts written by Tom Lester, Wayne Mones, and Stephen Ingraham (Better View Desired/Christophers)

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



Edited by BobinKy (08/12/07 07:25 PM)


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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1773971 - 08/12/07 10:57 PM

Thanks for the links, BVD is one of my favorites, when I 'remember' to use it.

--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP

Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth


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tjswood
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1775155 - 08/13/07 04:17 PM

Hi Bob,

I own the Nikon Premier 8x20's - just bought them about a month ago. I spent a couple of hours (or more) comparing the Leica Ultravids 8x20, the Swarovski 8x20's, the Nikons - as well as other brands! I also considered the 10x25's in similar models... but decided that the 8x mags were more manageable for hand holding... it always seems to me when you get past 8x, its harder to hold them still enough - YMMV, of course. (I am using them for camping / hiking where I wanted something ultra small and light for daytime use).

First off, the Ultravids were about $200 more than the premiers. A fairer comparison to the Nikon Premiers is the Leica Trinovid - they are similarly priced. (Trinovid is ~$480, Premier is ~$430). Comparing those two, I liked the Nikons better for brightness and contrast, plus it seemed to have a "smoother" focus knob. Both were nice.

Comparing the Nikons, Leica *Ultravids* (~$619) and Swarovski's (~$629) - to me it was a toss up. All three were nice. All three were very bright, and had outstanding sharpness and contrast. All had generous fields of view, of course. I rated what was best for my eyes in this order - 1) Swarovski, 2) Nikon, 3) Leica. I had many different opinions, and other may order then differently! What appealed to me most about the Nikons? I felt I was getting a bino on par with the Leica and Swarovski for $200 less. I have not regretted this choice - they are an outstanding bino!

One thing - they (all three types acutally) - only come with a set of caps for the objectives - you can choose to put the caps on either the objective end or the eye piece end. But they don't have caps for both ends - but you probably already discovered that.

Another thing that was constant across all three brands (and most others) - I have to extend the eye cups out (twist out on the Nikons) to avoid minor blackout issues. For my eyes on all three pairs, if I leave the eye cups retracted all the way in, I would have to leave the binos *away* from my eyes just the right distance, or risk brief periods of "black out". However, once I extended the eye cups out (at least halfway) they were very comfortable with no issues. I actually like the fact I have to extend them out - creates a buffer zone from the finger prints as the lenses cannot be touched as easily by others with clumsy fingers!!

Note - I did purchase one other bino in this size range, namely a Steiner 8.5 x 26 Wildlife bino. What attracted me to these is that they *extremely* rugged / waterproof, and the optics are good to boot. Reviews touted these as surviving Alaskan guide trips after being dunked in snow, ice, dropped, etc. They were $279. I bought these to take out on the belly boat / float tube (in a waterproof pouch), and other places where I was expecting water and jolts along the way. I am impressed with these for what they are, but I must note that the contrast, brightness and sharpness of the Nikons is better (hence why you pay more too!).

Anyway, both (Leica, Nikon) are great binos... you can't go wrong either way. Take a look at the Swarovski's too... who knows, you may justify spending the extra $200! They are nice too...

Tim


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BobinKy
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Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1025
Loc: Country road
Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: tjswood]
      #1777209 - 08/14/07 04:01 PM

Tim:

Thank you for your reply--let me say mini-review--of the top-of-the-line compact roof binoculars. It is apparent you are attracted to the compact concept, as are many others. Already, there are 615 views of this thread.

I found your comparisons very helpful. In addition to the optical qualities of the top three models, you also discussed other features, such as lens caps, size influences upon a steady hold, focus knobs, and eye cups.

Additionally, your discussion of why you purchased two pairs of compacts was most helpful--the second pair being the rugged Steiner 8.5x26 Wildlife binoculars. It is obvious "go anywhere" is a major appeal of compacts. And ruggedness, as well as submersion in water, are certainly par for the course, according to the comments from dedicated compact users like yourself.

As I look around and talk with compact users, I find there are many reasons people purchase them. Some of the users of this very unique instrument tell me such things as
    I carry them with me while I jog, holding them in my sweaty palm.

    We use them in the engineering firm where I work. We have several pairs that go out to the job sites.

    While the viewing is not as good as what I get from my larger 8x32s and 8x42s, I find I use my compacts more than any other pair I own.

    I keep a pair in the glove box of my wife's car. I like to sit outside and observe while she goes to the grocery store.

    I take them to basketball games, gymnasium meets, and other indoor events. I find I am able to observe with them for the duration of the event.

    I use them for watching chess tournaments.

    To me, the real difference is not portability. . .but rather the relative inconspicuousness of certain of the double hinge pocket models, especially at the theater, museums, kept in a briefcase on a business trip, etc.

    If I want a quick view, nothing is simpler than carrying a compact in my pocket.

    I like to walk about downtown by the river during my lunch hour. Compacts are less obtrusive.

    And on and on and on. . .
Tim, thanks again for telling us about your compacts.

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



Edited by BobinKy (08/14/07 04:22 PM)


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tjswood
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1778032 - 08/14/07 11:09 PM

Bob -

You are most welcome... that is what CN is all about - to share with others and also get good information. I always learn something new on CN.

It sounds like you gather your data carefully before making a choice. (so do I ) Best of luck, I hope whatever you get meets your needs!!

Tim


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BobinKy
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Reged: 04/27/07
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: tjswood]
      #1779879 - 08/15/07 07:56 PM

The binoculars are beginning to come in. Today, I received the 8x20s on loan from a local engineering company. My plan will be to record my reactions in this thread. Later, I may consolidate those reactions to some kind of nontechnical mini review.

5:00 p.m. My first impressions on the couch:
    #1 Swarovski 8x20B
    #2 Leica Ultravid 8x20
    #3 Nikon Premier 8x20
Despite what I have heard about the other two, the Swarovskis look like me.

6:30 p.m. The tomato garden test--Yes, definitely, the Swarovski feels right in my hands and against my face. The color vibrancy of the red tomatoes on the vines is better through the Swarovskis than the Leica Ultravids. What amazes me about the Swarovskis is how quick I get them to my eyes and in focus. However, the Nikon wins on the tomato garden test, once they were out of the case, unfolded, eye cups up, and focused.

6:45 p.m. Now for the rose garden test--the same results as the tomato garden test. The view through the Ultravids is pale in comparison to either the Swarovskis or the Nikons. The color vibrancy of the pink roses was the best through the Nikons, next the Swarovskis. I hate to say this, but the Ultravids were paler than an 8-year Nikon Tavelite V 8x25. Both the Nikon Premiers and the Swarovskis beat out the Nikon Travelites.

The Ultravids are sleek, the Swarovskis feel like another hand, and the Nikon Premiers are a tank--but definitely give the best views of the tomatoes and the roses.

7:00 p.m. My wife sends me to the grocery for eggs. I stuff the Swarovskis in my shorts pocket. What a feeling as I drive through the intersections. At the shopping center I head for the new construction and park. The Swarovskis are up to my eyes in seconds. I sweep the housing complex going up next to the shopping center. I put the Swarovskis on the seat next to me and drive for the store. Wrapping the slender cord, unlike the thick cumbersome cords of the Nikon and Leicas, I place the Swarovskis into the case and slip it into my pocket. Again the feeling--walking through the store with 8x20s in my pocket. I pick up the eggs and pay for them. Back in the car, I slip the case out of my pocket, unfold the Swarovskis, and place them on the seat next to me. I drive up the incline and sit at the intersection waiting for the light. No problem. Another viewing opportunity. I look at the vehicles ahead of me, the gas price sign across the street, and the cirrus clouds on the horizon. The light changes, I lay the Swarovskis on the seat again, and head for home. I slip into the house with eggs in my hand and glass in my pocket. Carefully, now, the wife does not suspect a thing.

More to come. . .

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1779997 - 08/15/07 08:58 PM

Excellent Bob!

Swarovski SLCnew 15x56mm is one of "my" favorite binoculars.

The price, however, is not. Don't see one in my future anytime soon.

--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP

Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth


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BobinKy
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1025
Loc: Country road
Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? new [Re: hallelujah]
      #1780773 - 08/16/07 09:23 AM

The 32s should arrive later today by UPS.

Last night my friend from the engineering company sent me a USAF Color Test chart as an e-mail attachment. I briefly looked at the chart on the screen through the 20s. Although the chart is designed to be viewed at 25 meters, I viewed it on my laptop screen at approximately 10 feet. I noticed some differences between the 20s. I want to come back to this color chart after the 32s arrive.

My friend also told me how different field surveyors prefer one of the 20s over the others. He said the different preference seemed to be size, eye cups, and color rendition. He said he preferred the Swarovskis in winter (because of their slightly yellow cast) and the Leicas in the fall. He said my preference for the Swarvoskis and Nikons over the Ultravids in the tomato and rose gardens, may have been my preference for the slight coloring added. In his opinion, the Ultravids do not add color and are more true to what is seen, only magnified. He also said the slight color leanings should be seen as a distortion, even though they added esthetically to the scene. I will have to come back to this at another time.

8:00 a.m. One of my dogs, a white spaniel with brown spots, is laying on the grass in the backyard. The sky is overcast and the sun, what there is of it, has not risen above the tree line yet. So I went for another test. The result of the spaniel test was different than the tomato or rose test on the previous evening. The Ultravids were clearly number one. The fur on the dog's neck was so clear and full of detail. The grass was cut a few days ago and the tops of the grass had a layer of yellow-brown from the cutting. The grass also looked the best through the Ultravids. The depth of field was deeper with the Ultravids, very noticeable by the spaniel's fur and the grass.

The Nikon's came in second, with the Swarovskis trailing. The Swarovskis last place appeared to be due to lack of detail. The spaniel's fur and the grass tops just did not stand out as much as they did with the Ultravids. So the results of the spaniel test with the 20s are as follows:
    1. Leica Ultravids
    2. Nikon Premiers
    3. Swarovskis
10:00 a.m. I repeated the spaniel test with the Leica Ultravid 8x20s and the Swift Audubon 820ED 8.5x44s. The view through the Audubon EDs was definitely superior to the view through the Ultravids. I must bear in mind one of the reasons for the quest is to duplicate the view of the Audubon EDs in smaller binoculars. The other reason is to walk around with quality optics in my pocket. Although the Ultravid 20s can be carried in my pocket (but not as easily as the Swarovskis 20s), the Ultravid view is inferior to the Audubon ED. This is an important point to test. It will be interesting to see if any of the 32s I have coming beat the views of the Audubon EDs.

Another thing--I dislike the straps of the Ultravids and the Nikons. I dislike the Nikon strap the most. The eye cup covers are attached to the straps of the Ultravids and the Nikons. They get in the way from time to time. There are no eye cup covers with the Swarovskis. I will have to ask my friend about that. I clearly prefer the strap of the Swarovskis. So , I can record my preference for strap and case among the 20s as follows:
    1. Swarovskis
    2. Leica Ultravids
    3. Nikon Premiers

I am looking forward to the arrival of the 32s later today. I must confess I truly enjoy field testing binoculars.

More to come. . .

--------------------
Bob
38° Kentucky, USA



Edited by BobinKy (08/16/07 08:20 PM)


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Rich N
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Re: Compact roof binoculars: $500-$700 range? [Re: BobinKy]
      #1780898 - 08/16/07 10:49 AM

Great report Bob, but you need to add a Zeiss 8x20 Victory to your test group.

Thanks,
Rich


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