half meter
Postmaster
Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 12509
Loc: Great Lakes
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Quote:
Perhaps it is time to clearly state why anyone should be skeptical of the science behind global warming in principle.
Speaking only for myself, the reason I'm sceptical of the science concluding that humans are upsetting nature's delicate balance and therefore our perturbation should be undone is because nobody really understands the dynamics of climate change well enough to know where the global thermostat should be set.
As a thought experiment, assume for a minute that nature is responsible for all of the global warming currently being predicted. Deciding to act to reduce temperatures by forming a movement called human induced global cooling (HGC) would assume that we "know" where to set the global thermostat. My guess is that in this scenario we'd adjust and adapt and overcome.
Now, assume for a minute that humans are responsible for all of the global warming currently being predicted. Deciding to act to reduce temperatures by removing our human induced global warming (HGW) again assumes that we "know" where to set the global thermostat. Since we don't know where to set it, my reaction to both situations is the same: adjust, adapt, and overcome.
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Gary
Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
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JCampbell
super member
Reged: 08/23/07
Posts: 125
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Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time to clearly state why anyone should be skeptical of the science behind global warming in principle.
Speaking only for myself, the reason I'm sceptical of the science concluding that humans are upsetting nature's delicate balance and therefore our perturbation should be undone is because nobody really understands the dynamics of climate change well enough to know where the global thermostat should be set.
As a thought experiment, assume for a minute that nature is responsible for all of the global warming currently being predicted. Deciding to act to reduce temperatures by forming a movement called human induced global cooling (HGC) would assume that we "know" where to set the global thermostat. My guess is that in this scenario we'd adjust and adapt and overcome.
Now, assume for a minute that humans are responsible for all of the global warming currently being predicted. Deciding to act to reduce temperatures by removing our human induced global warming (HGW) again assumes that we "know" where to set the global thermostat. Since we don't know where to set it, my reaction to both situations is the same: adjust, adapt, and overcome.
I don't think that is the arguement. What is discussed is taking the human factor out of the equation and letting natural forces work.
As pointed out above, the polar bears are not having enough time to adapt. The change is too fast. That seems to be the human influence.
Now why does one species on this planet have the right to play with their chemistry set without taking responsibilty for it? It seem illogical to saying we are polluting now, but we cannot stop because we are uncertain of the impact of not polluting. Since when has limiting human induced pollution caused a problem?
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Jake
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JCampbell
super member
Reged: 08/23/07
Posts: 125
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This has been an interesting thread. Took me a little bit of time to catch up. I agree with Dave that it is not just a matter of not burning carbon. Population is a very important factor in this problem, which I see is to live on this planet sustainably - something which we are not doing.
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Jake
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half meter
Postmaster
Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 12509
Loc: Great Lakes
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Pollution is one thing, CO2 is another. And taking the human element out of the equation is akin to saying that humans are not part of nature. We are, just as CO2 is released from forest fires started by lightning, volcanoes erupting, and microbes and fungus digesting fallen wood. We do seem to have an extra dimension that nature does not: guilt. Maybe that amounts to the difference.
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Gary
Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
20" Obsession/OMI Mirror/Servocat/Argo Navis
First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!
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JCampbell
super member
Reged: 08/23/07
Posts: 125
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Quote:
Pollution is one thing, CO2 is another. And taking the human element out of the equation is akin to saying that humans are not part of nature. We are, just as CO2 is released from forest fires started by lightning, volcanoes erupting, and microbes and fungus digesting fallen wood. We do seem to have an extra dimension that nature does not: guilt. Maybe that amounts to the difference.
The natural carbon emmisions can be compensated by the natural system - the trees grow back to fix the carbon that was released when the forest burnt. Burning coal and oil is not the same. Nor are the levels equal. We emit more carbon than volcanoes.
Yes, we are part of the natural system, does that justify harming the rest of it. Why not just dump our nuclear waste in our city parks? Why not cut down all the trees on the planet to make cheap paper? Why not poison the water supplies - we can always drink coke.
Guilt does not move me. I happen to find this planet worth preserving. It is more than just an industrial lot from which to make money. I would rather see the car companies go out of business than the polar bears go extinct. The folks that lose their jobs can get more work, it is hard for the bears to get another existance. I guess it is a question of value. I value the natural world and I would perfer not to impact it, especially when the human race can do something about it.
I have been reading this and one thing that jumps out is the anti-nature culture developed in the West and near east that shapes our action and relationship to the world. Nature is something to be mastered and has no value in itself. I feel this is the underlying resistance to altering our behavior when the impact is "only" to the natural world. That is a simplistic view as there is a very complex psychology going on, but the roots are there.
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Jake
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Qkslvr
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/23/06
Posts: 1052
Loc: NE Ohio, US
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Here's a twist to GW that I've been thinking about.
What if the CO2 isn't really warming the planet much, But that's it's sort of a monitor of biological activity/Solar capture. Which would work something like this:
More CO2 (plant food) makes more plants grow. Plants use CO2 and sun light to store energy (energy added to earths budget). More CO2 makes more plant mass, which stores more energy.
If you consider that this captured BIO Mass oxidizes, burns. Is it possible that this excess energy is the temp rise we're seeing?
This has nothing to do with my doubts, other than a possible explanation for the temp increase that doesn't rely on CO2 heat capture (which from what I've read is a small part of the measured temp increase).
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Mike
N8/CG-5/40D
Coming sometime/Maybe FrankenRebel
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11889
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No, guilt does not amount to the difference. No other species pollutes the environment the way humans do. Even if it made no contribution to global warming at all, the production of smog, the destruction of rainforests, the pollution of water, saline and fresh, the concretization of the planet, the paving of paradise to put in a parking lot, and so on and so forth, negatively affects the planet for everyone. The odd thing is that doing things better, and this includes industry, would offer all sorts of opportunities for the kind of creative overcoming that you favor. It would create new jobs and new industries, new opportunities. Why not say that we can overcome ourselves rather overcome nature?
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LittleDob
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/10/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Here or there
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Quote:
Speaking only for myself, the reason I'm sceptical of the science concluding that humans are upsetting nature's delicate balance and therefore our perturbation should be undone is because nobody really understands the dynamics of climate change well enough to know where the global thermostat should be set.
This is the exact position taken by NASA administrator Dr. Micheal Griffin. He got so lambasted that he had to recant Griffin regrets comments
The argument totally misses the point. The question is do anthropogenic GHG emissions contribute to global warming? Responding that we don't know what the thermostat should be, especially in the context of know paleoclimatic variations, does not in the slightest address the basic chemical and physical problem. It is a straw man argument.
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Jason
"Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice." Will Durant
NexStar 11 GPS
WO 80mm 10th Anniversary
TEC140 #360 
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half meter
Postmaster
Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 12509
Loc: Great Lakes
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Quote:
The odd thing is that doing things better, and this includes industry, would offer all sorts of opportunities for the kind of creative overcoming that you favor. It would create new jobs and new industries, new opportunities. Why not say that we can overcome ourselves rather overcome nature?
I do support this approach, although I'm not of the mind that making a dollar trumps all other considerations. And in my discussions, I've been referring to CO2, not overall pollution. That said, however, implicit in the need to do better is the assumption that we're doing wrong now. Given a choice between a global increase or decrease in temperature, from what little I know I'd choose an increase. The truth may be that we don't get a choice. Maybe the additional heat will cause more rain that will wash the atmosphere's pollutants into the oceans where they will sink and be broken down by the Earth's magma while the additional clouds cool the planet, I don't know. The fact that people are getting lambasted for speaking their mind means that precious little research is probably going on right now about how an increasing thermostat may be, on balance, good. As I said, we just don't know.
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Gary
Collins I3 (Thin Film) Image Intensifying Eyepiece
Coronado Maxscope DS 90 <0.5A w/BF30
152 mm f/8 TMB/A&M Carbon Fiber APO; f/5 with 4" Borg ED Field Flattener/Reducer
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First Light for the 30" Obsession at BEOTS!
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LittleDob
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/10/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Here or there
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Quote:
Maybe the additional heat will cause more rain that will wash the atmosphere's pollutants into the oceans where they will sink and be broken down by the Earth's magma while the additional clouds cool the planet, I don't know.
Or, as the evidence now shows, the oceans will continue to acidify decimating the marine realm.
If you thought the Permian mass extinction of marine life was severe.....
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Jason
"Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice." Will Durant
NexStar 11 GPS
WO 80mm 10th Anniversary
TEC140 #360
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11889
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"I do support this approach, although I'm not of the mind that making a dollar trumps all other considerations."
I am employing what is known in rhetoric as Rogerian Argument, which is an attempt to persuade one's opponent in a debate by adopting his position and arguing from there.
Personally, I most definitely do not think that making a dollar trumps all else. I think that the suffering and deaths of other species are trumps.
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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15782
Loc: Hoover, AL
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Locked pending moderator review. Will reopen in 24-48 hours with some new guidelines.
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Preston
Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)
It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.
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square_peg
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 23790
Loc: Maple Valley, WA
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Cloudy Nights Administration has decided to give this topic a rest for a bit.
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Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP 100 f/6 achro
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals
History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides
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