Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Since I'm considering looking at a new camera for strictly planetary imaging, I'd like to get some opinions and hope its ok to post in the forum. One big difference is the price, with the Firewire being about 1/3 the cost of the Lumenera. My ToUcam 740k days are numbered, and I've talked my wife into letting me get a new camera.  What do you guys think? If I purchased the Firewire, I could get another, faster laptop (mine is about 4 years old, Celeron processor!  ) for the total price of the Lumenera. But, if I buy a camera, I want to buy the best I can afford (about $1000.00 according to the wife)for planetary imaging. All opinions appreciated.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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iceman
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4357
Loc: Gosford, Australia
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I guess it might come down to how much you want to spend.
Some people have upgraded from the DMK to the SkyNyx (Paul Haese is one) and swears by the move. Sean Walker has recently reviewed the DMK (Oct S&T) and (not quoting directly) says that for the price point and features, the DMK is the best planetary imager you can get.
The extra dynamic range on the Lumenera would be good, but according to Sean, only really useful on high dynamic range objects like the Sun in H-alpha. I'm sure it would also be good on parts of the moon in different light as well.
By the time you add filter wheels + RGB filters, the cost increases significantly so don't forget to add that into your equations. Those extra pieces of gear end up costing more than the camera itself in the case of the DMK - moreso if you get an automatic/motorised filter wheel as opposed to a manual one.
The other thing to consider, is that if you do have an old laptop, you may not be able to utilise the extra features (faster frames rates) of either new camera if it has trouble capturing and storing the data fast enough.
Damian Peach uses a SkyNyx, and most that have upgraded, have done so for that reason alone. Knowing the research Damian does into every aspect of his planetary imaging, there's no doubt he's weighed up the pros and cons of every imager on the market, and if he's chosen that one, there must be more than one reason why.
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Mike
. mikesalway.com.au - Astronomy and Photography by Mike Salway
. IceInSpace - The Australian Amateur Astronomy Community
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Thanks, that is great info. I guess the DMX is like the SKynyx and comes in both color and monochrome, so you would have your choice of having to use filters or not. But, everyone I know who knows anything says to go with the monochrome and filters. But, I also see many people who have the Lumenera who come no where close to what others with the same set up are getting.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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One other thing, has anyone used the DMX with microsoft Vista?
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Well, from what I can find, the software for the DMX is only for XP, and my current laptop would be to slow to fully appreciate either the DMX or the Lumenera, so this is the laptop I would be getting for the sole purpose of using with the DMX or Lumenera. What do you guys think? Would this cover the bases to get the most out of the camera...
PROCESSOR Mobile AMD Sempron™ 3500+ (1.8GHz/512KB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® XP Home edit
LCD PANEL 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display edit
MEMORY 1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm edit
HARD DRIVE Size: 60GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive edit
VIDEO CARD ATI RADEON® Xpress1150 256MB HyperMemory™ (Integrated
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2295
Loc: South Australia
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I have used the DMK with Vista, works fine and drivers are compatible.
I went to the Skynyx as a stop gap for the next year or two. It is a better camera than the DMK for several reasons. Noise and well depth are two on the top of the list. Skynyx has very low noise and this results in the images I have been attaining. The well depth is greater and this means that more detail can be obtained by fewer frames. There are other side line benefits to great well depth too.
I did think of getting the Point Grey camera that Anthony uses, but I think things will change fairly rapidly in the next year and did not want to spend that much money.
Fire wire is good because of the speed in data transfer. With the Skynyx I have found that while I can get high speeds on Jupiter (45fps) it does tend to get a bottle neck with the USB 2 format. I never got this problem with the DMK. It can be sorted by using a RAM drive, but this is more software that you need to install.
Generally though I like the way the data is collected in the Skynyx and can recommend it as a planetary imaging camera. If you don't want to expend a lot of money go with the DMK because as Mike said there are other things that need to be bought also.
That machine would be fine.
Yes DMK comes in colour and mono. Check out the Imaging Source pages.
Best of luck with your selection.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Thanks for the information Paul. Just finished purchasing the laptop, which I'll need for either camera. I went with XP and not Vista. I'll sleep on which camera. I have a lot of respect for some people's opinon I've been discussing this with in private. One really likes the DMX and ranks it up there with the Lumenera, the other thinks the Lumenera is the only way to go, both agree on monochrome. I'm real wary of going to monochrome. I've had what I consider such great luck with my Toucam, I am so used to using it and love the ease of using it. Going with monochrome would set me way back on the learning curve.
Joel
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2295
Loc: South Australia
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Nothing good comes without some sacrifice and learning.
Best of luck.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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Bird
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/07/03
Posts: 2621
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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It really comes down to a choice between USB and Firewire, you'll find similar features on cameras with either interface. ie the Dragonfly Express (firewire) is very similar in features and sensitivity to the Skynyx (usb2). I've compared notes with Damian on our cameras, and after compensating for mirror size and exposure there's very little difference between them.
For my money the firewire bus is a much better choice than USB for video, simply because there's a published and well supported firewire video standard, whereas there's no similar standard for USB video.
This means:
- All firewire cameras speak the same protocol, so you have a wider choice of
applications to use, but all usb video cameras are different and have different features.
- The firewire video spec means that you can program the camera directly if you're that way inclined. Very few (if any) usb cameras let you talk directly to the camera. This means that more 3rd party software will be written for firewire cameras.
- The cpu usage is lower when transferring firewire data because the firewire controllers understand video. This means you can get more performance out of firewire cameras.
- Firewire is cross platform, so you can use the same camera on Linux, Mac, Windows etc. I'm using firewire cameras under Linux with very good free software called coriander.
Just my $0.02
cheers, Bird
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Deep Sky Optics 13.1" f/5.5 newtonian,
PGR Dragonfly Express, PGR Dragonfly 2
RedHat Linux + Coriander
http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Can someone tell me the difference between the DMK, DFK and DBK? I found two posts showing the the DFK with an 8 inch scope. I found them rather impressive.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Sunspot
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/15/05
Posts: 990
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Just as a further note, Chris Go uses a DMK 21BF04 for all his imaging.
Paul
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Paul Maxson
Mewlon 250, Tak TOA-130, SolarMax 60, SKYnyx 2-0M
http://www.sunspot51.com
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7726
Loc: About where I thought I was......
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The DMK is strictly monochrome. Color is derived by series imaging with specialized color filters and calculated in final processing. This has many advantages; especially in terms of higher resolution and better processing. Of course, it's more complex and expensive.
The DBK cameras are 'bayer cameras'. This means they use a chip much like (maybe the same) that used on the toucams;
the pixels are overlaid with a mosaic of tiny Red, Green and Blue filters and some kind of magical math interpolation is used to derive the final color channels. The data is piped from camera to computer as an 8 bit file, and colorization is done either at time of capture and stored as 24 bit files, or by debayering the RAW file in processing later.
I assume the DFK series does the debayering in camera and sends the data in 24 bit format. This could make for some huge files and I'm not sure what advantage it would have over the bayer cam; but I could be wrong (I frequently am )
The tradeoff here is about a 1/3 loss (izzat right?) in resolution vs mono--the bayer system acts as a low pass filter and probably adds artifact in processing. Final results, however, are often limited by seeing conditions anyway. All in all, the mono RGB system is superior; but only if done correctly with each channel focused for its color (if necessary) and greater skill in processing.
Jim
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
Edited by gazerjim (09/09/07 10:25 PM)
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Thanks Jim. I bit of research and I found out the big difference between the DBK and the DFK is that the DFK has an ir-cut filter over the ccd chip. I know with the DFK you have to buy some firewire cables, but does anyone know about needing a "firewire interface card" for your laptop? I read one might be needed.
--------------------
Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7726
Loc: About where I thought I was......
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You will certainly need firewire cables and probably either a firewire hub, or PCM card with ext. power jack to use the TIS cameras with your laptop. They draw more juice than the webcams.
Good luck.
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Jim, I've been reading some of your old posts on this that I've been searching. Question for you. I just ordered a new Dell laptop. Will it have a firewire port on it? What type of cable? A 6 to 4? And when I image, I'm always running off electricity. Scope and laptop. Lastly, does this thing really way 3 pounds? Would by Nexstar 8i handle that OK? Sorry I'm so technically challenged. That should cover all my questions. Thanks to all.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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iceman
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4357
Loc: Gosford, Australia
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If you want to go 1-shot colour, the DBK is the one you want.
I had to get a firewire powered hub for my DMK, which means I'm tied to 240v as well.
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Mike
. mikesalway.com.au - Astronomy and Photography by Mike Salway
. IceInSpace - The Australian Amateur Astronomy Community
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2295
Loc: South Australia
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Most new laptops now have firewire ports, very rare not to have them.
To some extent I agree with Anthony on the use of firewire. Although I found that software for point grey did not suit my level of use and knowledge. Meaning that I want a capture program that does not require a degree in computer sciences to operate. The Skynyx and DMK or DFK have nice software available.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7726
Loc: About where I thought I was......
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Joel, I think the weight is more like 8 or 9 ounces; but it feels like a brick compared to the webcams. Weight might become a factor as accessories add up--camera, barlow/powermate, filter wheel etc.
If your model of laptop does not have a firewire port you should still be able to connect using a firewire card that plugs into the PCMCIA slot of the Dell. You can either use a powered card (comes with a DC 'wall wart') or an non powered card running through hub dedicated for firewire.
Jim
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
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Marc Delcroix
member
Reged: 08/26/07
Posts: 64
Loc: France
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Hi Joël,
I bought a monochrome SKYnyx 2-0 6 months ago, the reasons for my choice (instead of a DMK) where the following:
- 12 bits resolutions instead of 8bits. Experts say this really help in planetary imaging only when you have excellent seeing/conditions. But it really helps if you plan to do deepsky imaging (max exposure time is 3minutes)
- it is said by some to have a higher s/n ratio (but i've never seen a technical comparison)
- you can use a ROI (region of interest) to shorten the size of the capture, which helps the PC to keep up to a high frame rate and use 12 bits. But my opinion is that it helps only for Jupiter, to be able to acquire the maximum number of frames through the 3 color filters while keeping a total acquisition time short enough to avoid a blur due to the fast rotation of the planet. For the other planets, Saturn is not bright enough anyway (so i do LRGB with it, main thing beeing to limit only the acquisition in L), and Mars the rotation effect of Mars is smaller (disk smaller, rotation longer)
But to use the higher frame rate possible (60fps), you need a hard drive fast enough ...
Hope that helps
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Tournefeuille, France
personal web site
Member & webmaster of the
French Astronomical Society (SAF), planetary observations commission
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany, NRW
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Hi all,
imaging at 60fps sounds tempting but please keep in mind that this is only possible with exposure-/integration times of 1/60s or shorter. This limits the possible usage of 60fps to a few objects, most planets plus the moon are too dim to be imaged at 1/60s with our usual scope apertures with high magnification. BTW, the 21AF04.AS offers 60fps and ROI, too.
Best wishes & clear skies,
Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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