Marc Delcroix
member
Reged: 08/26/07
Posts: 64
Loc: France
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Hello Oliver,
I totally agree with you, i might not have been clear enough: imaging at 60fps for me is only valuable for Jupiter. But it can be used also on Venus or the moon too.
To my knowledge, the ROI offered by DMK is a software ROI, meaning that the camera transmits the full frame and the the Imaging Source software crops the image, so it means need for the same bandwidth, and a bit of CPU time i presume.
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Tournefeuille, France
personal web site
Member & webmaster of the
French Astronomical Society (SAF), planetary observations commission
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany, NRW
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Hi Marc,
ok, the only gain of the software ROI would be saving diskspace then. Since the DMK & DBK 21AF04 can do 60fps at full framesize, higher framerates by ROI are not required for these models anyway. Things look different for the 31 and 41 models of course, true ROI with enhanced framerates would be a very nice feature here.
Best wishes & CS,
Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 366
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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Interesting thread.
In my review, I felt the Imaging Source cameras offer a better price vs. performance. The cameras come with excellent software, but you need to purchase your firewire cable and possibly a power supply (depending if you have 4-pin or 6-pin).
The Lumenera requires additional software purchase ($100-500!). Streampix only records in 8-bit, and is more expensive. LUCam recorder enables 12-bit capture, but I didn't see any real benefit other than imaging the Sun.
The biggest difference is the application of ROI- because the Lumenera compatable softwares perform this in camera, you can record at very high framerates when using a small portion of the chip. The imaging source cameras perform this in software, so it doesn't effect recording speeds.
I'm not saying the DMK's are better, I just don't find the benefits of the Lumeneras justify the 3x price difference.
Of course, this is only my oppinion.
By the way- the difference betwen the DBK and the DFK color cameras is one has built in IR blocking, while the other does not.
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12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
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Millennium Mount EQ
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany, NRW
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Hi,
well, the D'B'K models output raw Bayer data and the deBayeing is done on the host computer, the D'F'K models (german Farbe=color) transfer the image data as RGB to the host, hence the DFK models require 3x bus bandwidth compared to the DBK (and DMK) models.
My review of the 21AF04.AS and some basic thoughts on the ImagingSource camereas can be found on my website (direct link).
Best wishes & clear skies,
Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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Slow_aetk
member
Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Switzerland
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Hello Oliver,
Great review, very instructing on the behaviour of these cams. I spent a long time on Imagingsources website without find half of the information contained in your review.
Danke sehr,
Alain.
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TOA130 / C11 on CGE
XT10i
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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I'd like the thank everyone for answering my questions. Especially the ones I've been talking with in private. I just got off the phone with John at The Imaging Source. Very knowledgeable and nice guy. He said the DFK is suited best for terrestrial imaging and the DBK is certainly the way to go for planetary astrophotography. He said the DFK will certainly do OK with the planets, but would appear "pink" on the screen. I can use the IR-cut filter I have with the ToUcam. So he got me all set up with the cable, 6 pin to 4 pin, and the external power source. I changed laptops I'm buying. The one I'm getting now has the firewire plug and Windows Vista. As someone else pointed out in this thread, he said it will work fine with Vista. He also said they had been quite busy since Sean's S&T article. I realize most would still say the Lumenera is the way to go, and I do believe it too, but getting this camera allows me to upgrade from the ToUcam and get a new laptop for the price of the Lumenera alone, and still save hundreds. More than likely, I'll be buying again in 2009 during the Mars apparation and will seriously consider the Lumenera at that time. And, I did decide to go with the color instead of the monochrome, against the good advice of expert imagers in this forum for this reason... I like the results I've gotten from the ToUcam when I split the color channels. With good seeing, even fair - average seeing, it will pick up blue-ice clouds, orographic clouds and structure of the NPH, while the Red will cut through these clouds and show the albedo features on the surface. That is what I'm intersted in and need, and the easiest way to get that was with the color and not the monochrome. But I do know sometime in the future I'll give monochrome a try. Thanks again to all..........
Joel
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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And example of splitting the color channels from a color, and not monochrome camera. If you compare the Red to the Blue and look at the NPH (south is up), you'll see that even though the blue isn't what you would get with a blue filter, it does well with showing the clouds in blue and the red shows the albedo features that you don't see in Blue and RGB.
web page
and another example showing how color can pic up orographic clouds. If you look at the left side, center of the disc, you'll see light patchy clouds in the Tharsis region. You can see them in RGB and Blue, but not Red.
web page
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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iceman
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4357
Loc: Gosford, Australia
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Splitting the colours channels and processing them independantly is certainly the way to go if you're going to stick with a 1-shot colour camera.
It's a technique I used when I was on the ToUcam as well, and describe at length in my article : Planetary Imaging and Image Processing. Of course it's over 14 months old now and techniques have changed a bit but for those still on the ToUcam or other 1-shot colour cameras, it's still useful.
Congrats on your purchase.
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Mike
. mikesalway.com.au - Astronomy and Photography by Mike Salway
. IceInSpace - The Australian Amateur Astronomy Community
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 2453
Loc: Colorado
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Joel,
I recently purchased an inexpensive Dell Vostro 1500 with WinXP that also had a 4 pin firewire port. Interestingly Dell's marketing doc didn't mention the firewire port ... it was buried deep in the technical doc.
I like your analysis as to which camera you're choosing. One thing to watch is the length of the firewire cables. I found them limited in length with no options to easily extend a 6 pin cable. The Imaging Source modified cable (includes a DC power connector at the 4 pin end) is very interesting ... I just wish it was a little longer.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED
Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s, 8x56s, T-Mount Light, and Mark 1 eyeballs
Modded 350D, SPC900, Mallincam
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Gendo
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/12/05
Posts: 3231
Loc: Rexburg, ID
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For me at least, there's no point to imaging any faster than 20fps on Jupiter with my C8 and DMK21. Even then, its a bit dim at my image scale (15fps is ideal).
That is another thing you'll have to consider if you're after 60fps. I doubt that framerate is useful with anything less than an 11-12" scope at large image scales, with the exception of the Sun and Moon.
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2295
Loc: South Australia
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To get 60fps you need a minimum aperture of 18" to get full frame. I have tried on my 14 and it will not do it. Especially when imaging at 10k + mm. Smaller scales will work but you loose so much detail doing this and therefore defeats the purpose of having the camera.
Joel, I am sure you will get better images than the Toucam and I look forward to seeing them.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 366
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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I got 60fps while shooting Mars on the 28th in IR at 16,000 mm with my 12.5". It was a bit too dim for my liking, so I went back to 30fps and lower gain.
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12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
80mm f/10 refractor
70mm Mak Cass
40mm PST
Millennium Mount EQ
TI ProDome #002
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Ron B[ee]
Tyro
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 4719
Loc: CA
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Thanks for the thread Joel. I'm watching with a very keen eye  .
Ron B[ee]
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5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO 
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO 
8-inch f/6 Discovery PDHQ Dob 
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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FYI, I thought this might be good info for this thread. Registax and K3ccd will work fine on Vista. The ToUcam Pro is a no go though.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 93
Loc: Germany, NRW
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The DxK drivers and IC Capture.AS work fine with Vista, too.
Best,Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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Marc Delcroix
member
Reged: 08/26/07
Posts: 64
Loc: France
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Joël, regarding the toucam pro, you can flash the firmware with the SPC900nc one, and it will work fine with Vista.
Marc
http://astrosurf.com/delcroix
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Tournefeuille, France
personal web site
Member & webmaster of the
French Astronomical Society (SAF), planetary observations commission
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Stephen65
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/14/07
Posts: 934
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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If you're going to buy a new Dell laptop make sure you get one with a firewire port (the cheapest ones don't), otherwise you need to buy a separate firewire expresscard.
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Megrez 90
FLT 132
Mewlon 250
Lots of XWs, an Ethos, Supermonos and some other EPs
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 366
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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Here's a direct comparison of the LU-075 camera and the DMK 21AF04 in IR light (Venus). Same filters and lenses were used back to back, the only difference being the spacing between the camera and barlows to achieve the same image scale. Same processing for both also. I found the DMK to be less noisy than the older Lumenera. the difference was less noticable with the SkyNyx 2.0.
I chose IR because the seeing was poor in UV that evening, plus the low contrast of IR features on Venus made for a pretty good workout for both cameras.
The camera recoding speeds were: 96 frames per second (in 12-bit SER format) on the Lumenera, 60 FPS for the DMK.
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12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
80mm f/10 refractor
70mm Mak Cass
40mm PST
Millennium Mount EQ
TI ProDome #002
Edited by swalker (09/11/07 10:50 AM)
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1252
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Nice comparison Sean. I see some, but little difference. Certainly not $1000.00 worth of difference. I actually bet with a bit more processing to the DMK version, you could get it to where you couldn't distinguish the two.
--------------------
Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 366
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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Agreed- I like the DMK images better.
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12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
80mm f/10 refractor
70mm Mak Cass
40mm PST
Millennium Mount EQ
TI ProDome #002
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