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asaint
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 2021
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A Case for GOTO
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jsmiller58
sage
Reged: 06/19/06
Posts: 200
Loc: Out there, Way out there
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I personally agree 100% that GOTO is the way to go. However, as with many if not all things, what is important to someone is, well, what is important to them... If what is important to you is to learn the night sky like the back of your hand, then a GOTO is kind of like riding a bike for all your life with training wheels while trying to emulate Lance Armstrong. If on the other hand what is important to you is to see as many things that are in the heavens that you can, well, then as you say a GOTO is unmatched...!
Now, the quality (and I am afraid, price) of the GOTO mount makes all (most of?) the difference in the world... My first GOTO was a relatively inexpensive Orion Atlas EQ-G mount with an 11" SCT. I call it my "I'll GOTO wherever I want to GOTO and most of the time I don't want to GOTO where you me want to GOTO" mount... This was next joined by a most wonderful Losmandy GM-8 Gemini mount that is right on the mark the VAST majority of time (the difference between VAST and ALL being mostly attributable to "pilot error") and is a great mount for a smaller telescope, so I had to buy a 90mm APO refractor. In October these two will be joined by an AP 1200GTO mount, which I understand is almost supernatural in its ability to get a GOTO right and has a larger payload capacity - which means I am now shopping for a 14"-16" SCT, and building an observatory to house it in.
Wait, maybe I should have stuck with binoculars...!
James
"The path to someplace extremely warm is lined also with great ideas...", or something like that.
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- 90mm WO refractor
- 11" Orion SCT
- PlaneWave CDK17 (the "Cosmic Cannon")
- MallinCam Hyper Color Plus
- More eyepieces than I can use, but not one Ethos... Hmmm... How soon till Christmas?
- Atlas EQ-G mount
- Losmandy GM-8 mount
- AP 1200GTO mount
- Pro-Dome-15 Obs
- A wife who doesn't understand my fascination with faint fuzzies, but encourages me anyway
- A 16 year old son who calls me just another nut job with an observatory
- A 14 year old son that still thinks I am cool
Edited by jsmiller58 (09/26/07 11:08 AM)
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CarolG
sage
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 495
Loc: Oklahoma
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I really enjoyed this article about GOTO. It may not be for everyone, but I fear that because of the increasing amount of light pollution and difficulty getting to darker skies, many of us will have to have some type of GOTO system. I am already there. I would love to learn the sky like the back of my hand, but unfortunately due to excessive light pollution, I am lucky if I can see a handful of stars naked eye, much less make out enough stars to star hop. If it weren't for GOTO, I doubt I would be so involved in this wonderful hobby.
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Carol
NS11 XLT on a Scopebuggy
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC
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TBerdon
super member
Reged: 05/03/07
Posts: 109
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I love GOTO since getting my CPC. Granted there are those that decry it, but it saves me time and my time is limited. Many of my observing sessions are less than 2 hours. More time at the eyepiece is a plus.
The down side is that newbies to the hobby now don't need to know anything. Eventually, this may erode the amateur astronomer knowledge base.
Regards,
Tim
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Why is my Clear Sky Clock never clear?
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Dylan Gladstone
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 955
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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I'm a "newbie" and I opted not to get a goto for my first mount. It's a SkyView pro so it's upgradable to GOTO later, but for now I want to try learning the sky.
Many years ago I had a telescope (way before GOTO existed) and I really enjoyed hunting down objects. To me that was part of the fun.
But maybe now that I'm older, require more sleep, and have less free time I'll wind up upgrading to GOTO after a while...
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Orion SkyView Pro 127mm Maksutov
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mark47
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 620
Loc: Scotland
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I found this article to be right on the money. I too have a goto system, the main reason is because of light polluted viewing.
Quote:
The down side is that newbies to the hobby now don't need to know anything. Eventually, this may erode the amateur astronomer knowledge base.
But I have a small scope that I can take up into the hills for dark skys, but as this is a grab'n'go, I have to learn the night sky. The goto system is just way to heavy to carry any distance. And as long as amature astronomers continue to do this. I don't think the quality of knowledge and experience will be hindered or lost.
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Celestron C6-NGT.
Equinox 80mmED on a Porta Mount.
William optics 2" Dielectric Diagonal.
Baader Hyperion 24,13 & 8mm EPs
Celestron 1.25" EP Kit.
Antares 25,15,10mm Plossl.
Orion 12.5mm Illuminated Reticule Plossl.
Baader Neodymium, OIII, UHC-S Filters.
Antares ALP Filter.
Canon EOS 350D.
Dark Skies Everyone.
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edosaurusrex
super member
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 157
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Dylan touches on a good point. I am a "hunter" as well so with a GOTO I would feel "cheated". My big kick is to find objects using my Star Atlas and skills. I really don't spend much time looking at any one object before moving on after taking some quick notes.
I asked my dad for a Tasco refractor when I was 9 and he handed me the Boy Scout Astronomy merit badge handbook and a planisphere. "You can have your scope when you can find all this (stuff)." I got my scope on my 11th birthday. I look the way I was taught to look.
Deep down though the idea of the hobby is to get outside and look at objects. Star maps and GOTO's both serve that purpose. What gets in my craw is a guy with $15000 in equipment that complains about the gas money to get to a dark sky site every month. We're here to look at the sky and the more you look the more chance for that "WOW" when you see something for the first time.
The soapbox is stored back in the closet now.
Ed K
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 4455
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Perhaps this is a moot point, but what we're *really* discussing is not specifically "GoTo", but "COL" (computer-object-location) or "DSC" (digital-setting-circles, or as i like to call it: "digital-sky-coordinates  ). As such, DSCs really take the "price" aspect out of the discussion, as they are very affordable- often costing no more than a mid-range eyepiece! As an example, Orion's "SkyViewPro" EQ mount (which i own) can be easily upgraded with their DSCs for about $250 (which i have not *yet* done...), rendering the mount a "Push-To" system.
My Meade SCT was upgraded years ago with their "Magellan II" DSC system for about $450. Additionally, my newly acquired *used* Dob was outfitted with "Sky Commander" DSCs- i suspect for about that same cost.
Granted, these systems are ALL "Push-To" systems without computer generated "tours" or any gee-whiz gadgetry. I still need to plan the trips & drive the tour bus, plus all the initial alignment procedures a GoTo set-up would need.
But i must say, having such computer-aided pointing assistance has been a real boost to my viewing enjoyment, exactly as desribed by the author! And i mention this moot point only as an encouragement to those who would desire such digital assistance but are "turned-off" at the prospect of expensive "GoTo" systems... "Push-To" is a viable alternative to consider!
 mike b
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Just for giggles- Next time when the money comes out the ATM, scream "I Won!, I Won!"
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob * *
 Pacheco State Park
 Fremont Peak
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nerdup
member
Reged: 07/28/06
Posts: 91
Loc: Cloudy Vancouver
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It seems to me that people who are adamantly pro-GOTO and people who are adamantly anti-GOTO are involved in the hobby for completely different reasons. The GOTO people are out there to *look at* things, while the non-GOTO people are out there to *find* things.
For me, I enjoy both in equal measure. I don't think I would enjoy seeing things as much if I was just pressing a button and looking in my eyepiece. Using my star charts and trying to reconcile what I see there with what I can see above me,and hopping from point to point until I arrive at my destination is a necessary part of the satisfaction I feel when I get to the point where I can actually look at what I'm trying to find.
Whatever my personal feelings, though, I think it's silly and pedantic to decide out of hand that one is 'better' than the other. It's our responsibility as people who've been involved in the hobby for a while to help new people make the choices that are best for them, not force some kind of ideology on them.
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____________
Cameron
300mm Lightbridge on Roundtable / 80mm Skywatcher Equinox / Coronado PST / 10x30 Canon IS binoculars / Cheap compound microscope
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30019
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
It seems to me that people who are adamantly pro-GOTO and people who are adamantly anti-GOTO are involved in the hobby for completely different reasons. The GOTO people are out there to *look at* things, while the non-GOTO people are out there to *find* things.
For me, I enjoy both in equal measure. I don't think I would enjoy seeing things as much if I was just pressing a button and looking in my eyepiece. Using my star charts and trying to reconcile what I see there with what I can see above me,and hopping from point to point until I arrive at my destination is a necessary part of the satisfaction I feel when I get to the point where I can actually look at what I'm trying to find.
Whatever my personal feelings, though, I think it's silly and pedantic to decide out of hand that one is 'better' than the other. It's our responsibility as people who've been involved in the hobby for a while to help new people make the choices that are best for them, not force some kind of ideology on them.
Well said, and very true. 
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." Professor Irwin Corey
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BlueRidge
sage
Reged: 01/12/07
Posts: 288
Loc: Blue Ridge Mtns., VA
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A wonderfully written article, it pretty much sums up my feeling on GOTO entirely.
As my first full year of my obsrving (much of it with GOTO) draws to a close, I am humbled by all there is to know and learn about the wonders of the heavens. Undoubtedly, GOTO has made the tremendous difference between frustration and success - and has allowed me to view the deep space vistas I would otherwise have never gotten to see with the precious little observing time I try to set aside each month. It also leaves me wanting to know and learn more, and the greater good is that I HAVE been learning the night sky as a result of GOTO, whereas my telescope may instead have been sitting in some box in the attic.
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Celestron Skymaster 15 x 70's, Miyauchi BR-141's
Celestron Nexstar 11 GPS, SkyAlign upgrade
Celestron 9.25 XLT OTA, CG-5 Mount
Stellarvue SV90TBV
Denk II Binoviewers/#S2 Power/Filterswitch
21mm and 14mm Denk EPs
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deepsky
sage
Reged: 12/04/05
Posts: 210
Loc: oregon
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Anything that gets people out observing is for the good.
Do you think professional astronomers feel cheated because they don't star hop?
Having said that, I personally enjoy the 'hunt" as well as the 'find". Although I have GoTo capability on my 18", I eschew it 90% of the time. Admittedly, watching a large scope slew across the sky to a target is fun to watch!
Heard of slow cooking? Well I like slow astronomy.
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jim jackson
Astroleague Observer Award junkie
Messier Club-Honorary
Lunar Club
Binocular Messier Club
Double Star Club
Herschel 400 Club
Urban Observing Club
Deep Sky Binocular Club
Caldwell Club Silver&Gold
Southern Sky Binocular Club
Southern Sky Telescopic Club
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DerekDRP
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/16/07
Posts: 903
Loc: Michigan
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Quote:
Anything that gets people out observing is for the good.
Do you think professional astronomers feel cheated because they don't star hop?
Having said that, I personally enjoy the 'hunt" as well as the 'find". Although I have GoTo capability on my 18", I eschew it 90% of the time. Admittedly, watching a large scope slew across the sky to a target is fun to watch!
Heard of slow cooking? Well I like slow astronomy.
I know what you mean by slewing of a big scope.
It's really fun.
--------------------
My Website
http://astroderek.wordpress.com/
My Sky Clock.
Quote By David H levy
Astronomy is an Art, Not a hobby.
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6778
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
I love GOTO since getting my CPC. Granted there are those that decry it, but it saves me time and my time is limited. Many of my observing sessions are less than 2 hours. More time at the eyepiece is a plus.
The down side is that newbies to the hobby now don't need to know anything. Eventually, this may erode the amateur astronomer knowledge base.
Regards,
Tim
Actually, newbies *do* have to know something about the sky, the way telescopes work, and the amount of technical knowledge and patience which is needed to make these scopes work reliably. They need to know where the alignment stars are and which ones make good choices to get the greatest accuracy. They also need to be able to see when the scope is slewing in the wrong direction so as to detect the occasional "going out to lunch" behavior and intervene. They need to learn where roughly in the sky things are, so they can see if the scope is going where it is supposed to. They need to learn how the sky appears to move. They need understand and become well-versed in the proper procedures for alignment and operation. They also need to know just how many minor technical glitches can occur during setup or normal operation that can bring things to a grinding halt. Even after several years of experience, I had this happen last night, as my laptop would not communicate at all with my NexStar 9.25GPS despite having done so many times before. It came down to minor contact problems in the socket for the control cable, but for a while, I got extremely frustrated, as I had to try at least 10 to 20 minutes before I isolated the problem and was able to correct it. Some of the cheaper Go-To's have these problems and more. This is why I do *not* recommend a GoTo scope for the rank beginner. A Go-To telescope can be a real aid in observing and saving a lot of time, but it can also be the source of headaches and heartache when things go wrong (and they *do* go wrong). Clear skies to you.
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6778
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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nerdup posted:
Quote:
It seems to me that people who are adamantly pro-GOTO and people who are adamantly anti-GOTO are involved in the hobby for completely different reasons. The GOTO people are out there to *look at* things, while the non-GOTO people are out there to *find* things.
Well, I can't really agree here. People who are a little too adamantly pro or anti Go-To are both missing the point. Go-To is a tool and nothing more. The adamant Pro Go-To "zealots" may not appreciate the fun in finding something "manually" (i.e., the fun of the hunt), while the adamently anti-GoTo zealots may not appreciate the frustration that some people feel in not being able to find things under less than ideal conditions. The key here is *balance*. I spent many many years as a died-in-the-wool starhopper. I can still find many things with my old 10 inch equatorial Newtonian faster than I can with my NexStar 9.25's GoTo system. Initially, I wasn't all that impressed with Go-To, but the more I used it, the more time I ended up saving and the more enjoyment I got out of the experience. Guess which scope is now getting the lion's share of time outside? Yup, its the Go-To NexStar. I also do use the scope in the non-GoTo mode to find things occasionally (found Vesta a couple of months ago by using the Sky and Telescope finder chart and just slewing things until it appeared in the finderscope). I enjoy the hunt, but I also enjoy observing what I go after, and with that approach, I have the best of both worlds. Clear skies to you.
--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
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Jim Carpenter
sage
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 280
Loc: Colorado
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I agree that goto mounts have a definite place in our hobby, particularly when one gets past the "learning the sky" level. Once the star hopper has seen all the Messier objects and some of the other easily found targets, goto or DSC's start to make a lot of sense. AP'ers especially benefit from quickly finding an object so they can maximize imaging time. A friend once described using a goto mount as being similar to one of those one-week whirlwind tours of Europe -- a day in London, a day in Paris, a day in Rome, etc. Sure you quickly see the major sights, but you miss an awful lot in between. That may be fine for some people, but others enjoy a more liesurely and comprehensive viewing experience. As they say, different strokes for different folks.
But on the other hand, I've seen too many occasions of someone with a goto mount forgetting a power cable, a control paddle, or a power pack and having to pack up and go home because their goto mount did not allow manual operation. If I forget my DSC computer or the battery dies, I can simply go back to traditional star hopping and the evening is not lost.
Jim
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Mogster
sage
Reged: 03/14/04
Posts: 296
Loc: Manchester, England
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I've had my CPC for about 6 months now, computer object location has really increased my enjoyment level in this hobby.
5 frustrating years under heavy UK light pollution without COL and its like I've had a new world opened up to me. I have limited observing time, partly due to early starts at work and partly due to the UK weather. I can see so much more now in my precious observing sessions and group observing with friends is now a joy.
I agree that GOTO isn't ideal for people completely new to astronomy. You hear about people struggling to set up their shiny computerised scope in the dark and giving up in frustration way too often.
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CPC 9.25, Orion 127 Mak, WO Zenithstar 2 80APO, Coronado PST, Pentax 12X50 WP
Edited by Mogster (09/26/07 04:26 PM)
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Kevin201
super member
Reged: 07/06/04
Posts: 189
Loc: North of Boston
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Nice article. And so true. I love my goto (push-to). When I was a beginner I used my goto a lot but I was bored. I took the time to learn the constellations and its made a big difference. I'm currently doing my Astronomical League messier list without goto. But I can use SkyTools. And when I want to take it easy; align in 1 min and I'm ready for goto.
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Mark
Orion XT10i, Moonlite CR2
Dewbuster
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 12070
Loc: San Diego, California
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Quote:
It seems to me that people who are adamantly pro-GOTO and people who are adamantly anti-GOTO are involved in the hobby for completely different reasons. The GOTO people are out there to *look at* things, while the non-GOTO people are out there to *find* things.
For me, I enjoy both in equal measure. I don't think I would enjoy seeing things as much if I was just pressing a button and looking in my eyepiece. Using my star charts and trying to reconcile what I see there with what I can see above me,and hopping from point to point until I arrive at my destination is a necessary part of the satisfaction I feel when I get to the point where I can actually look at what I'm trying to find.
Whatever my personal feelings, though, I think it's silly and pedantic to decide out of hand that one is 'better' than the other. It's our responsibility as people who've been involved in the hobby for a while to help new people make the choices that are best for them, not force some kind of ideology on them.
Nicely said...
I think we all have our own ways of enjoying this hobby, the hope is for each of us to find the equipment that allows each of us to enjoy our time under the night sky to the fullest.
In my view, the value of discussions like this are that they allow us to reach familiar/common ground. Hardworking Starhoppers who are frustrated (as well as others) can easily connect with Eric's pleasure and joy in having equipment that will help him find targets he is looking for.
And on the other side, those of us who have different motivations and get our pleasures in different ways can hopefully have hint as to Eric's goals and motivations. At the same time Eric's light illuminates our own understanding of ourselves and why we enjoy stargazing.
Personally I stumbled across amateur astronomy as I stumble across interesting targets in the night sky, not looking for anything in particular, just letting my curiousity and my patience take me where they will, enjoying the view through the eyepiece regardless of whether it is some difficult target or just some unnamed star field. And then there is the silence and the solitude.
It all started when I happened upon a worn out, filthy $5 garage sale refractor. I had no expectations of what I could see, I just wanted to look. And today, that is is still all I want to do, just go out and take a look and see what I can see.
Oh it is fun to split a tight double, watch a shadow transit, "discover" a faint cluster of galaxies, enjoy the sparkliing beauty of M7 one more time.... I like the adding a piece to the puzzle by locating tricky target. I enjoy the cycle of the sky, the treasures that come with each season, last year and the year before...
These are just a few of the things that get me out there looking up every clear night.
Meade/Celestron, Refractors/Reflectors, GOTO/Starhopping... The main thing is we are out there looking, enjoy the universe in some small way that helps us... How we do it, doesn't really matter as long as we're doing it.
Is there a case for GOTO? Oh Yeah... I
s the a case for Starhopping, No doubt about it...
Best wishes, clear skies ahead...
Jon Isaacs
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Tel
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/31/06
Posts: 2631
Loc: Wallingford England
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Hi Eric, thanks for the pleasure your article gave me. It does seem though that, as you might have expected, you've disturbed a hornet's nest or should that be, opened a whole can of worms! No matter, polarisation is heathy, dogmas are not !
For what my two cents "chip in" might be worth, I fully support GOTO which, speaking from my own experience having persevered with an 8" EQ mounted Newt for a few years, brought me a completely new outlook on amateur astronomy when I traded in the Newt for my N8i.
If one's contending with even mild light pollution, slightly off polar alignment by way of the having to transport the 'scope outside on every available viewing occasion and the consequential inaccuracy of the setting circles, you can appreciate my, by then, waning enthusiasm.
GOTO gave that enthusiasm back to me many times over and continues to provide it.
Best regards,
Tel
--------------------
Truth is the cubed root of Verbosity.
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