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Gordon Rayner
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 506
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If one wants to make a collimator, such as a unfolded version of the UBMM, in which a Newtonian or Cassegrain telescope with a target in its eyepiece holder would face a smaller scope, with the binoc to be tested/adjusted located between the two scopes, it is of quite practical, not "academic" interest, to know if the UBMM has a direct image of the target focused on its groundglass . It is not necessary to know this in order to proceed, but it its useful information. Now, I can find this out by simply picking up the phone, but perhaps someone in the audience( who should not be underestimated) might be interested.
Do you consider Hanna's writings in ATM III (Willmann-Bell) to be academic? Which academy teaches this subject?
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Gordon ,
I've had at home , for quite a while now , amongst other similar books , a 1975 publication by Edmund Scientifics , by the great Sam Brown , entitled ALL ABOUT TELESCOPES , which is cram - packed with all sorts of useful information for optically related D.I.Y projects .
I'm sure you're familiar with the publication .
It even includes a couple of pages showing how one can make their own small bench collimator !
The thing is , in spite of finding the book to be very interesting , I've never for one moment felt the slightest inclination to want to actually try to build any of the numerous optical contraptions shown in the book , and neither has my wife , nor any of our five children , nor any of my brothers or sisters , nor any of THEIR children .
In fact , none the above other family members have even ever shown the slightest interest in any of the books .
I wonder if the reason for NONE of my family being thus interested is related to heredity ? -- or would you speculate that this situation may have been all so different had we all been familiar with the writings of Hanna ? ( which , for some inexplicable reason , we weren't -- it was always either The Holy Bible , Kit Carson's cowboy annuals or Charles Buchan's football magazines , in our household when we were kids ! ).
Regards , Kenny
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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BillC
on a new path
   
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
If one wants to make a collimator, such as a unfolded version of the UBMM, in which a Newtonian or Cassegrain telescope with a target in its eyepiece holder would face a smaller scope, with the binoc to be tested/adjusted located between the two scopes, it is of quite practical, not "academic" interest, to know if the UBMM has a direct image of the target focused on its groundglass . It is not necessary to know this in order to proceed, but it its useful information. Now, I can find this out by simply picking up the phone, but perhaps someone in the audience( who should not be underestimated) might be interested.
Do you consider Hanna's writings in ATM III (Willmann-Bell) to be academic? Which academy teaches this subject?
Hi Gordon:
While I am pretty busy right now, I feel your letter needs to be answered—especially since you are obviously addressing some of my concerns. So, here goes.
You said:
“If one wants to make a collimator, such as an unfolded version of the UBMM, in which a Newtonian or Cassegrain telescope with a target in its eyepiece holder would face a smaller scope, with the binoc to be tested/adjusted located between the two scopes . . .
My reply:
Even as much as you have talked about it, most people haven’t a CLUE what a UBMM is—folded or otherwise—and that doesn’t make them stupid. Like me, they just don’t care—and I own one! Now then, with as much as I have talked about collimation, do I wish people were more savvy about the issue? Yes! However, this is a free country and I don’t feel the need to ram it down their throats. That’s not what the list is about.
You continue:
“it is of quite practical, not "academic" interest, to know if the UBMM has a direct image of the target focused on its groundglass.”
Gordon, there are OTHER opinions in the world. Obviously, for you the subject matters a great deal, and that is TOTALLY fine. For most of the rest of us, it does not matter at all. And that, by definition, makes it impractical. By definition? Yes, definition!
You continue:
“Do you consider Hanna's writings in ATM III (Willmann-Bell) to be academic? Which academy teaches this subject?”
Well, that comes in two parts. First, yes I do. And I will share with you TWO dictionary definitions of “academic.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
1) Hypothetical or theoretical and not expected to produce an immediate or PRACTICAL RESULT.
2) Marked by a NARROW FOCUS on or display of learning ESPECIALLY ITS TRIVIAL ASPECTS.
And then there is the, “Do you consider Hanna’s . . .” approach. To me it seems just like another of your non-productive challenges. With all due respect, I often get the impression that you are here for show and for that you need a sparring partner. Well, I have neither the time or interest to be a sparring partner—although to this point, I have been wearing soft gloves.
When I comes to optics, I am as well-read as yourself, own as many books as you do and some of the most noted telescope makers, optical engineers and binocular enthusiasts in the world send me Christmas cards. And yes, I know about Hanna. Volume III is at my right elbow at the moment.
But I have got a great deal for you. If you will stop alluding to me in your spurious challenges, I will not bother you or me with any further replies. I think that is a dandy idea—peaceful coexistence! Or, as Dr. Stephen R. Covey (Seven Habits of Highly Effective People) says: we can agree to disagree, AGREEABLY.
Cheers,
Bill
-------------------- William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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stargazertony
super member
   
Reged: 09/25/07
Posts: 195
Loc: CA.
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Hey Hokie.
To answer your question which seems to not be the topic here anymore !! I have the X-Trail 20x80s. I got them from http://www.binoculars.com/binoculars/astronomy-binoculars/20x80xtrail.cfm for $99.00 and I had them shipped next day air by FED EX to avoid The UPS package crusher. I recieved them ontime and the collimation is fine. I get nice sharp bright images and Im thrilled with them. Maybe one day when I win the lottery I could get a Saturn 3 bino scope but if I do I will have my 20X80 X-trails right there along side.
Here is a link to my gallery. Check it out!!
http://www.cloudynights.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=32058
-------------------- Anthony Rogers
12.5" Discovery PDHQ Dob."Aldebaran"
4" Mak w/Stellarvue Dielectric Diag.
20x80 Barska Binoculars Mounted
7X35 Simmons Wide Field Binoculars
My CN Photo Gallery
Edited by stargazertony (10/11/07 03:41 AM)
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Claudio
sage
   
Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
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This post doesn’t reply to Anthony Rogers, member of the High Desert Astronomical Society, but to Gordon Rayner, member of the Highly Deserted Collimator Society. Sorry for wandering off the original subject.
Dear Gordon,
you wrote:
“Why were the triangles in the Navy books described as "equilateral", instead of isosceles, and why were they not rewritten?”
“Anecdotally, it appears that use of the UBMM was not immediately obvious, not even to Muhammad. Does it have a direct hinge reference, or does one use those "geeky" triangles , (or just wiggle away to get an idea of the general direction toward the hinge)? I sold mine without using it.”
About equilateral and isosceles triangles: you are right, but the book is right too.
Why? If I give now the explanation without describing better all the collimation procedure, maybe you would be happy (and our friend Kenny would sleep peacefully after knowing the solution of this unexpected world's great mystery), but most of our tribe would not enjoy this kind of cryptic dissertation.
So please give me time to bring to an end my Penelope’s rope, a text on collimation that hopefully won’t be my unfinished posthumous post.
About the UBMM. As asserted in another thread, I have never used this kind of apparatus, have just seen it at some Fairs, but from far away.
However, I think have seen quite a few binocular collimators of various designs, and no one was trusting the position of the hinge tube to know where the mechanical axis points (or, in the case of the UBMM, trusting the lens cups as perfectly orthogonal to the mechanical axis).
If the UBMM is used in this way, probably the binocular that is collimated with it will show still some residual misalignment when checked with a binocular collimator like the MK5 or any other one using the “tail of arc” method or another method similar to it.
I see I am becoming too obscure for many of us, so… more thoughts on this theme will come in my Penelope’s rope!
Claudio
Well, just to show that I did not forget the original topic, here are my two fundamental cents:
How do you pronounce Zhumell?
Edited by Claudio (10/11/07 05:33 PM)
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gcfboulder
journeyman
Reged: 09/27/07
Posts: 6
Loc: CO
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Dear Anthony: Those are great tips, about the Barska 20x80 X-Trail Binos and about having them shipped Fed-EX. Would you happen to know if the Barska 30x80 X-trail binos are as good as the 20x80's?
Glenn in Boulder
-------------------- Glenn in Boulder
Starsplitter Dob 12.5" F6
Celestron C9.25 XLS
Orion Skyview Deluxe 6"
Zhumell 20x80 Binos
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stargazertony
super member
   
Reged: 09/25/07
Posts: 195
Loc: CA.
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Howdy, Howdy, I actually considered the 30x80 but I figured with the 20X80s would have a brighter image. The more you magnify an image the more it deteriorates plus If I want more magnification I would use my Telescope. I use these bins to supplement my observing with my other equiptment and to sneak in some nice wide angle views. I do like these bins alot more than I thought I would and use them every night. I have not looked through the Barska 30X80s so I cant give you an honest opinion of how they perform.Also I havent seen any reviews on them.
-------------------- Anthony Rogers
12.5" Discovery PDHQ Dob."Aldebaran"
4" Mak w/Stellarvue Dielectric Diag.
20x80 Barska Binoculars Mounted
7X35 Simmons Wide Field Binoculars
My CN Photo Gallery
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camvan
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 2086
Loc: British Columbia
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another problem that tends to follow the popular 30x80's, I believe, is terrible eye relief, making them unsuitable if you have glasses.
-------------------- Cameron
"Aperture can only be replaced by even more aperture. Dark transparent skies cannot be replaced by anything else." - Stathis Kafalis
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gcfboulder
journeyman
Reged: 09/27/07
Posts: 6
Loc: CO
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A lot of things begin to improve when you get up to 30 power (in a telescope), such as the moon, you can see the rings of Saturn, you can make out the Trapezium in M42 while still seeing most of the nebula, etc. But binos are a lot faster to set up and easier to take with you than a scope, so it seems like it would be cool to have a pair of 30x80's. I have read that the Orion Megaview 30x80's have good eye relief, but I don't really want to spend $500 on binos.
-------------------- Glenn in Boulder
Starsplitter Dob 12.5" F6
Celestron C9.25 XLS
Orion Skyview Deluxe 6"
Zhumell 20x80 Binos
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
The more you magnify an image the more it deteriorates
That is true for very high powers nearing limits of telescopic resolution, but does not directly apply to the low power of binoculars. We are talking about less than 10x per inch and there is no image deterioration at these magnifications.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Gynomite
sage
Reged: 06/06/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Dallas Texas
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So I guess that's a no on the Zhumells
-------------------- Celestron NexStar 6 SE SCT
Orion 12XTi Dob with COL (SOLD)
Celestron Sky Scout
Denk Big Easy
Denkmeier P x S Diagonal
Orion Stratus 68 5mm
Orion ED 2 12.3mm (paired)
Orion Lanthanum 21mm (paired)
Leupold 12x26 Binoculars (Hunting and Birding)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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It's an explanation of the affect of magnification on image quality, not a statement reflecting on any binocular.
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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With the probable exception of level of coatings, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that the Zhumell 20x80, Barska X-trail 20x80, Anttler Optic 20x80 and Garrett Optical 20x80LW and the Burgess 20x80 are all the same binocular.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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