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benvegas
super member
Reged: 09/15/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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How far can you get on a $2000 budget for an existing scope owner wanting to dive in with Astrophotography? The goal is best of the best within that budget, and here's the equipment you already own in this hypothetical scenario:
- Celestron CPC 1100 XLT with standard tripod and GoTo (No wedge or EQ Mount, f/10 11")
- 2" Diagonal which also accommodates 1.25" EPs
- Nice selection of eyepieces if that matters
- No modifications to the scope or mount past standard factory issued stuff
With that to work with, how would you spend your $2000? Go nuts! CCD? DSLR? 10 Webcams?
This is the budget that I have committed to Astrophotography, and I'd like to maximize my dollar. Our local dealer, Scope City, pretty much has nothing when it comes to Astrophotography, so the Internet is where I intend to buy all of this.
Over the last month I've spent a lot of time here reading the threads quietly to learn in this forum, and know the basics. I dont care about a learning curve nor frustration, that's just mental stuff I can get over. The goal is best of the best for superb results.
Thanks for your thoughts while I continue to let my eyes bleed from reading all the information here. 
-Ben
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Astronomically Uneducated since September 14th 2007
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT
Orion 80mm ED
Sony Alpha a100 DSLR
el'cheapo Meade DSI
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Ben Ritchie
Lost in Space
Reged: 01/31/05
Posts: 4339
Loc: Bosham, UK
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What do you want to image? If it's the moon and planets you already have almost all you need - i'd suggest one of the ImageSource firewire cameras (few hundred dollars), LRGB filters and a filter wheel (plus a laptop if you don't already have one).
For deep-sky work, i'd look to the HEQ5/EQ6 mounts (sold by Orion under different names - Sirius/Atlas I think?) with a Orion 80ED as imaging 'scope, Orion ST80 as guide scope, a DSLR or Meade DSI-II as the imaging camera and a Meade DSI Pro as autoguider. Ok, it doesn't use your existing equipment at all, but I think it comes in under $2000 (certainly does if you buy a couple of bits used) and, to me, it's the best 'bang for the buck' beginner imaging setup out there.
edit: just to add that the reason that I didn't use the 11" SCT is that a long-focal length 'scope on a fork mount is a really hard way to start long exposure imaging. A refractor on a GEM is much, much easier to get results from.
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Astro-Physics 130EDT StarFire, 80ED (x2), 305mm f/5 dob, VLT
Astro-Physics 1200GTO, evolved HEQ5/pro
Coronado SM60/BF10, 3-6 Nagler zoom, 8 & 13 Ethos, 28UWAN
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benvegas
super member
Reged: 09/15/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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Excellent questions.
Primary objective is DSO, secondary objective is planets. I should also stress, that I dont want a 'beginner' setup. Despite being a beginner, I want better than beginner hardware.
Photo quality needs to be fantastic. I really do not like 640x480 pictures of an object. High resolution is the name of the game. BIG pictures baby, big!
Thanks!
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Astronomically Uneducated since September 14th 2007
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT
Orion 80mm ED
Sony Alpha a100 DSLR
el'cheapo Meade DSI
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Ben Ritchie
Lost in Space
Reged: 01/31/05
Posts: 4339
Loc: Bosham, UK
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You can go a long way with the equipment I suggested, so it's not a "beginner" setup as much as a "budget" setup - with a $2000 budget you're really looking at Chinese kit rather than Losmandy and TeleVue. However, the 80ED and HEQ5/EQ6 are strong performers. The 80ED's a bargain, good colour correction and a fairly flat field at a great price. The mount, too, isn't brilliantly made but performs well and the periodic error is smooth enough to be easy to guide out. I can't think of a better budget mount/scope - the performance is respectably close to some much more expensive options.
As for the choice of DSLR or DSI, it's a case of what your interests are. The DSLR will give you wide fields of view without blowing the budget, but is noisier and less sensitive than the DSI. However, the DSI gives you a fairly limited field of view. Neither is a bad choice, although both are something of a compromise. But, again, for a budget buy they're very strong performers.
As for the DSI/ST80, any mount under $2000 (and a great many that cost more) will need to be autoguided for long exposures, and the DSI/ST80 is one of the cheapest ways to do it.
I can't think of a way of using your existing setup with a $2000 budget. If you look at $400 for a good wedge then you might just have enough money for a used SBIG ST-2000XCM, which would image and guide at the same time. But I think the HEQ5/80ED would give you better results.
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Astro-Physics 130EDT StarFire, 80ED (x2), 305mm f/5 dob, VLT
Astro-Physics 1200GTO, evolved HEQ5/pro
Coronado SM60/BF10, 3-6 Nagler zoom, 8 & 13 Ethos, 28UWAN
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Darren1968
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/04/05
Posts: 766
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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I fully agree with the comments made by Ben.
My first serious set up was a Skywatcher ED80 mounted on an EQ6-pro. I went with the heavier mount because I wanted the option of using a larger/heavier scope in the future. I picked up an inexpensive 80mm short tube refractor to be used as a guide scope. I already had a Canon 300D camera, which was easy to attach to the scope for prime focus astrophotography.
The scope is f/7.5, with good color correction, decent flat feild, and no comma. I still use this scope/mount combo. I also mount my larger 8" Newt. on the EQ6. There are many other more capable mounts, but for the money the EQ6 is a good performer.
You can visit my site, listed below, to see some of the images that I have taken using the ED80 / EQ6 combo. While I am not the best imager, it has helped me produce images that I am proud of.
Good Luck.
Darren
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GSO 8" f/4 Newt.
Skywatcher 80ED Pro
Meade ETX-125 5"Mak
Mount: EQ6 Pro
Canon 300D
homepage: http://home.cogeco.ca/~dpursel
ToUcam Pro II
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
.gif)
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Hey Ben,
Lots of good advice already. Everyone around here loves a post where we get to spend someone else's money! 
For planets, you already have one of the best scopes for the task. Get a firewire camera, or at least a good webcam, and a 2X barlow, and you are set.
As for "high resolution", I think you mean large image size or large FOV, or both? Because you can have extremely high resolution with a very small sized camera sensor. Just look at the webcam images of the planets. A phillips webcam with a 2x barlow on your 11" SCT would give a pixel scale of 0.21 Arcseconds per pixel!! 
While $2000 seems like a lot of $$, it realy isn't once you factor in a mount, scope, and camera.
Are you against buying used?
Do you consider this purchase to be your last, or are you OK with upgrading when/if you decide that you need to?
I just can't see you getting a GOTO mount, two scopes, two cameras, and the accessories for $2K.
Assuming that you aren't against upgrading in the future, with the $2K limit, you might want to look at the following:
good wedge for your CPC - $400
DSI Pro II - $700
DSI (for guiding) - $100
William Optics ZS66 ED plus 0.8X flat field - $450
mounting rings and weights - $250
Meade/Celestron 0.33X reducer for the SCT - $100 used
Total cost $2000
This gives you two options for imaging: The SCT at 924mm for smaller nebs and galaxies, and the ZS66 at 388mm for large stuff. Either scope can be used as a guide scope for the other.
Oh yes, fork out another $150 or so, and get a good webcam plus 2X barlow and you can image planets as well.
Is it the best setup? Nope, but it can give very nice images, and will last you a while, until you are ready to upgrade.
My 2 cents!
BTW, download the free ccd calculator. You can enter in your scopes with any reducers or barlows, then enter in the camera, and see what objects will fit in the fov, and what imaging scale you have.
http://www.newastro.com/newastro/book_new/camera_app.asp
Regards,
Gary
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Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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benvegas
super member
Reged: 09/15/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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Thanks for the replies!
I really do want to use my Celestron CPC 1100 XLT. Despite the f/10 I can get the reducer for f/3.3 and already own the f/6.3 reducer lens.
The problems I'm coming across right now are that a lot of the HOWTO sites are pretty outdated and refer to things that dont exist, are incredibly old, or software that has had 3 revisions since the articles were written. There's a shortage of *new* info talking about *new* techniques. This is why it's been so hard to learn this field.
I'm told that a Wedge with a polar alignment is equivilant to going with an Equatorial mount. I *really* like the GoTo features of my CPC1100 and dont really want to buy a brand new mount when a wedge works just as well (I'm told, anyway!). Especially after just purchasing the CPC1100 one month ago, and being brand new to Astronomy in general (see previous pots), going multi scopes right now isnt something I *want* to do. Additionally, I read at a few places that with faster exposures, stacking the images and then using two stars as other objects can reduce the need for a wedge as well, but I cant find much clarification on that. The other reason I really want to use the CPC 1100 is that I'm still learning the sky only being in this hobby for one month so far. For these reasons I really want to use my existing mount, and my existing scope.
After thinking about all this clarification, I should have made a better first post in this thread.
I already do have a DSLR as well. I've never attached it as I dont have the T ring for it. The camera just isnt a really good one, it's the Sony Alpha A100. All the research I found says it's not suitable for Astrophotography due to excessive noise in dark areas. That's kinda what lead me to be open to either another DSLR or a Color CCD imager. This wasnt mentioned before since I was worried about 3 pages of replies saying "just get a ring for $13 and click away".
My goals again are high resolution images of everything. If I cant use my picture as desktop wallpaper or submit it to a photography magazine or even try and win the Cloudy Nights monthly imaging contets, it isnt a setup I want. And by all means, if the budget exceeds $2000, I wont be shedding a tear either, but $2000 is the most I *wanted* to spend. We all know that feeling of wanting to spend X and then actually spending X*5
I'm still trying to dissect the information about guiding (how, what, and why -- the info seems pretty out of date that I have found). Also the Alt-az mount vs Alt-az+Wedge vs Eq mount (remembering that my CPC1100 is an Alt-az mount with a wedge available at an inexpensive price and I want to keep my SCT setup).
Is it feasable to be able, over time from learning curve and experience, to obtain images such as:
http://www.takayuki-astro.com/stl_m31_l.html
http://www.jburnell.com/STL11000/IC1805HaRGB_small.jpg
...with the CPC 1100 XLT? Or is my setup just unreasonably stupid and I made poor decisions? These two pictures depict exactly what I want. BIG images with beautiful colors. Blurry pictures of Jupiter or low resolution images arent what I'm after.
Thanks again for your continued help!
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Astronomically Uneducated since September 14th 2007
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT
Orion 80mm ED
Sony Alpha a100 DSLR
el'cheapo Meade DSI
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Peds
sage
Reged: 03/07/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Brasilia, Brazil
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Ben,
Your telescope has advantages that make it excel in a few areas but a few problems that will limit it in others. The high quality wide-field pictures you have shown will be hard to acquire with that scope.
First of all, DSO "high quality" photography will need a STABLE (expensive, in other words) equatorial mount. The mount itself can easily consume all your budget (and if you want the best you'll need to triple that budget for the mount alone). A wedge just won't cut it when you're trying to get really nice pictures through LONG exposures, especially in the case of your long focal length, slow scope. You will want round stars throughout your long exposures, and to get round stars you will a stable mount with low periodic error and a method of autoguiding.
Another thing... these pictures you provided show a relatively wide field, which your scope cannot accomplish unless you mosaic several images. And this brings me to another limitation of your scope in this respect: Field curvature. Your scope is very fit for planetary imaging and also galaxy imaging (not m31 and m33, these are BIG!) since you can simply put those objects right smack in the middle where there is no field curvature and the stars and objects don't get elongated or distorted and they will look gorgeous!
In conclusion, I believe you really have to either reassess what kind of imaging you will be doing, lower your expectations or increase your budget generously.
What Ben suggested is a good idea. You will get a pretty good mount and scope which are capable of giving you the wide-field look i think you are after. Next, however, you would need a suitable "high quality" camera... Unless you want to increase your budget by around $3,400 to get a nice SBIG self guiding color CCD camera which has a generous field of view, you will most likely be stuck to a DSLR of some kind which also have large fields of view, but a few disadvantages compared to CCD. Mainly sensitivity and noise. A Canon 350D (Rebel XT) wouldn't be a bad choice here.
Sadly, in this sport the amount invested is usually proportional to the final quality of the picture.
Hope this helps,
P.
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Orion 80mm ED Apo
White William-Optics Zenithstar 66SD Apo
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Ben Ritchie
Lost in Space
Reged: 01/31/05
Posts: 4339
Loc: Bosham, UK
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Peds has said a lot of what I'd say. The setup I recommended can do what you want - for example, this was taken through an 80ED refractor with a DSLR
http://www.astro-sharp.com/images/m31/M31_2005.08.29_NC_1536.jpg
But, just to give you an idea of how expensive things can get, a 'dream setup' for the sort of imaging you're looking to do would be something like this:
Takahashi EM-200: $4,699.00
Takahashi FSQ: $3,995.00
SBIG STL-11000XM: $6,995.00
Astrodon filters: $825
(prices from OPT). That doesn't include some important items - e.g. a tripod for the mount! - but is just the kind of setup the big guys are using. It's an expensive game.
The other thing about the "small refractor on a GEM" setup is that it's portable. I'm guessing you have some real dark sky within a couple of hours drive of Vegas, and the 80ED/HEQ5 setup is really portable. If you were after a single improvement to the original setup I suggested i'd look to replace the HEQ5/EQ6 with the EM200 mount. That's very, very good and very easy to get setup in the field.
Have a look in the DSLR forum, you'll see just what's possible with a $500 consumer camera.
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Astro-Physics 130EDT StarFire, 80ED (x2), 305mm f/5 dob, VLT
Astro-Physics 1200GTO, evolved HEQ5/pro
Coronado SM60/BF10, 3-6 Nagler zoom, 8 & 13 Ethos, 28UWAN
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1745
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I have a similar setup to yours and here are my recommandations (in order):
1- Meade 3.3 Focal Reducer $150
2- Orion Monochrome Starshoot II with filters $900
3- APT wedge $650 (don't get the Celestron Wedge)
4- Orion 80ED (piggybacked on the CPC): $530
5- For the Orion 80ED, you can also add the following motorized focuser ($60):
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=focusers/~pcategory=accessories/~product_id=07395
6- Rings (mini-dovetail system with 125mm rings) from ADM accessories to mount the Orion 80ED on the CPC:150$
http://www.astro.premcom.com/ADM/ADM%20Products/MDS%20Description.htm
7- Counter weights to balance the scope (also from ADM accessories) with 10.5 pounds of weights: $160
http://www.astro.premcom.com/ADM/ADM%20Products/MDS-CW.htm
I have already surpassed your budget... But you don't have to get everything at once. I own all of this things except that I have the Starshoot I. But I intend to get the monochrome Starshoot II. It looks better than the DSI Pro II because it has TEC cooling and a better filter wheel. I also have a JMI Crayford-type focuser on my CPC. I have started using the Orion 80ED more than the CPC for imaging. So this accessory didn't make my list. But a decent two speed or motorized focuser is also useful for imaging.
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nik hodges
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/20/07
Posts: 633
Loc: UK
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if you want to use your existing telescope then id go for in order
f6.3 and or f3.3 reducer
a good wedge (ie not celestron) - used
a used st2000xm
not sure if you get this for $2000 though
as Ben says the price of top end kit to some extent makes it a rich mans game but you can get some VERY nice results with far more modest kit...
my dream set up would be along the lines of
stl-11000m
rcos 12inch rc
paramount me
all in a dark sight and remote controlled....
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Flurostar 110 [TMB] with TAK TOA/FS 0.75 reducer
Megrez 80mm triplet apo & mkIII FF
"LX200R" (8") with AP CCDT67 reducer & moonlight focuser
StarlightXpress SXVF-H16 camera/trutek filter wheel
DSI Pro II
Maxim DL/Maxpoint + adobe PS3extended
On AP900 notification list
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Psyire
sage
Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 353
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Having just bought a CPC 1100 myself, I have been doing a bit of researching into Imaging. (in the future) I was just wondering if you have considered the Hyperstar method? You could get the conversion kit & lens combined with a somewhat decent ccd camera, and then once you've mastered the process upgrade to a more expensive Starlight camera (or similar). If you check out Starizona's website you may see images that are to your liking and are capable on the CPC11.
A couple nice points with this setup is you don't need to autoguide or use a wedge.
Just a thought..
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Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
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benvegas
super member
Reged: 09/15/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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Thanks for the replies.... back from a vacation to reply myself now...
Since the adapters for my Sony a100 DSLR are cheap, I've ordered them for planetary and general tinkering.
The HyperStar system scares me. I read somewhere, and I cant remember exactly where, that the HyperStar will only be good for smaller photos, and since I want big, I didnt see the point of the system. It seems for the ~$700 that the HyperStar costs, the risk of mounting equipment and all its weight on the glass alone was too scary for me. Perhaps someone else has advise on the HyperStar or links to articles/reviews for it?
Once the DSLR stuff arrives, I'll learn my limitations and start ordering toys from there.
-Ben
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Astronomically Uneducated since September 14th 2007
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT
Orion 80mm ED
Sony Alpha a100 DSLR
el'cheapo Meade DSI
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Richard Scott
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Tampa FL
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My vote is to look hard at the setup yg1968 suggested. That rig is a solid combo, and it will challenge you to extract it’s it’s maximum potential for quite some time.
I don’t know this for a fact, but I suspect most of the “Big Boys” started out with a much more modest equipment than they now own.
Learn the art and science of astrophotography first. After having done that, you are much better positioned to make informed choices as to where to spend your money.
Richard
p.s. thanks for the tip on the ED80 electric focuser yg, I just put it on my list of must have toys.
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11” Celestron XLT SCT
Orion ED80 APO
CG-5 GEM
JMI NGF-CM Focuser
Orion SSDSI
Meade DSI Pro
an assortment of 1.25” & 2" stuff
all tucked inside the Blue Moon Observatory
http://tinyurl.com/29b9wn
Basically more scope than my abilities warrant
"I know I can never look upon the stars without wondering why the whole world does not become astronomers."
Thomas Wright
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benvegas
super member
Reged: 09/15/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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Just bought the ED80 and the focuser and both ADM rail/weights......... Did some googling for the "APT Wedge" and found the manufacturer but the order comes to $689.99 for wedge, $37 for insurance, $67 for shipping.. Ouch! Seems a bit crack-crazy.
Are there better alternatives, a different source to buy one, or reasoning why the celestron one sucks?
Thanks!
-Ben
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Astronomically Uneducated since September 14th 2007
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT
Orion 80mm ED
Sony Alpha a100 DSLR
el'cheapo Meade DSI
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1745
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There is also the Milburne Deluxe Wedge for the CPC 1100. But at $609 plus shipping, you wouldn't be saving much. My preference was to get the APT wedge for a bit more money. Unfortunatelly, for wedges, you get what you paid for. You can start out imaging in alt-az and get a wedge later on. Unfortunatelly, one of the most important items in imaging is the mount or the wedge (for fork mounts). As far as wedges, the APT wedge and the Deluxe Milburne wedges are considered the best. But they are expensive. But you don't need a wedge right away. Having fun in alt-az for about a year might be a good idea.
http://www.milburnwedge.com/prices.html
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Or you can find a used standard wedge and give it a shot. If you find it is not stable enough, then resell it and get the more expensive one.
Just a thought.
Gary
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Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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