mttafire
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 1114
Loc: midwest
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Collima....Colluma....HUH? Are we actually allowed to discuss this subject anymore? LOL.I collimated my binos yesterday at Walmart, They seem to be fine now. 
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God Bless America
Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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So, it's finally all come down to THAT!
I can see it all very clearly now, as we peer into the future, the local WalMart has the Express lanes for the groceries, etc., as well as the Express Lube for the quickie Oil change, the Express register back in gardening, and finally, the Express Collimation Counter where they will help you to align the cheap, no name binoculars from Outer Mongolia. 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
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"They seem to be fine now." --Shawn
"SEEM????!!!!" 'Saved your hiney on that one didn't ya, hot dog!? 
Cheers,
Bill
PS What is the weight of your fire gear?
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
PS What is the weight of you fire gear?
A lot heavier when you have to wear it around in 400° I bet!
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
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And I used to complain when I had to wear a wool uniform!
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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Bill Mitchell
super member
Reged: 11/25/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Cornwall Ont. Canada
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Hi the statement is from personal exsperience.If there's adjustment screws on something i just can't resist turning them to see what they do.I have a Denk 2 that has provisions too move the diopters to collimate them ,this is the best way to collimate a pair of binoculars!!! This is not possible with most binoculars that only allow you to move the prisms.
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GPS11
SkyWatcher 8 in. Dob
Orion 100ED SVP
Meade 4500
William Optics 80FD
SkyWatcher 102 Mak
Orion Resulox 15 X 70
Zhumell 25 x 100
Zhumell 20 X 80
Denk 2
Mallincam Hyper Color Camera
Orion Resolux 10 x 50
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
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"this is the best way to collimate a pair of binoculars!!! --Bill Mitchell
I'm not trying to be difficult, but what if the binocular is collimated via the traditional eccentric-ring method, such as in the Fujinon MT and FMT series or the Nikon Astrolux or Prostar, or perhaps the old Swift Stormking?
I THINK you may be overlooking a critical point or two on a critical collimating convention or two, of which there are many.
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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mttafire
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 1114
Loc: midwest
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Quote:
"They seem to be fine now." --Shawn
"SEEM????!!!!" 'Saved your hiney on that one didn't ya, hot dog!?
Cheers,
Bill
PS What is the weight of your fire gear?
Seem: that has to be the most forgiving word in the english language..That or "could".
P.S.
With airpack and all..it adds appox 65lbs.
Its like 20 here in Ohio today w/4inces of snow. so....All i want to do is stay WARM..
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God Bless America
Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!
Edited by mttafire (12/05/07 06:16 PM)
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
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Shawn:
I started my day with news footage of fish swimming across portions of a 20-mile section of I-5 in central Washington.
While I would like you to stay warm, I would hate for it to be due to your job.
All the best.
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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mttafire
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 1114
Loc: midwest
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Quote:
Shawn:
I started my day with news footage of fish swimming across portions of a 20-mile section of I-5 in central Washington.
While I would like you to stay warm, I would hate for it to be due to your job.
All the best.
Bill
LOL, I SAW that on the news...The fish swam past the double yellow line....  Gotta love mother nature.
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God Bless America
Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!
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johndavid24
member
Reged: 12/19/05
Posts: 38
Loc: ohio
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One pat on the back after another from the moderators and vendors here, suggustions that anybody that buys something not up to thier standards needs to see a Psychiatrist. Going completely off of the subject , but thats OK for a few , no need to redirect. Soon it'll probably be just a few people patting each other on the back ,
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
One pat on the back after another from the moderators and vendors here, suggustions that anybody that buys something not up to thier standards needs to see a Psychiatrist. Going completely off of the subject , but thats OK for a few , no need to redirect. Soon it'll probably be just a few people patting each other on the back ,
It’s my fault. I guess I’m one of the unluckiest guys in the world. If I spout hard facts about binoculars and optics, based on decades of experience, some automatically label me a snob or an elitist. On the other hand, if I just share a few words of camaraderie with a friend, I am wasting time and getting off topic.
If there is one thing I have learned on CN, it’s that opinions carry just as much credence as facts. Therefore let me state it is my humble opinion that in a forum like this, a few kind words that have strayed from the correct path, as some might see it, could just be of greater value to the community, as a whole, than words that stay focused on the topic, but which do not represent that topic accurately.
Just a thought.
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Years ago people purchased something called a Yugo, it had four wheels and an engine and a transmission and was incredibally cheap transportation.
When they broke down they became disposable.
How many do you see on the streets today?
Perhaps when the Zhumells break down they can be turned into a piece of art.
http://www.cruisin66.com/stl/yugonext.html
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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Dave Hederich
sage
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 237
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I find some degree of value in virtually all of the posts on CN discussing products in which I have some interest. The main exception is posts that were intended to belittle other people rather than discuss the pros and cons of various products in a friendly manner.
I believe experienced members when they say that some products have less quality and consistency than others, and I believe less experienced members who express enthusiasm for fire sale products that exceed their expectations.
I really appreciate reading different viewpoints and opinions on different products. If I didn't find different viewpoints and opinions in these forums, I'd consider CN to be a much less interesting and useful place to spend my time.
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Celestron C4-R 102mm Refractor
Tasco StarGuide 4 102mm Mak
Stellarvue BV3 Binoviewer + SV23mm EPs
GSO 1.25" 2X Barlow
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II Binoculars
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MtnGoat
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/18/07
Posts: 932
Loc: Columbia Gorge, WA
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IMO the only issue is with value judgements pronounced as fact. I appreciate the words of experts such with decades of experience as it teaches me a lot about optics and the differences in binoculars and the benefits of various designs. On the other hand, it's unknowable what another person will value even with lower quality optics at a low price. After reading the posts here at CN, I'm well aware of how my low cost zhumells and Barska's do not perform as well as more expensive models and in fact some of the posts have taught me what to look for so I can see the flaws in use. On the other hand, not purchasing the cheaper models would not result in being that much closer to a good pair, because they are simply outside the budget I have, and within the limitations of the variations in quality control on the cheaper models I'm viewing a lot of cool stuff and enjoy them greatly.
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"Ignorant people think it's the noise which fighting cats make that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening grammar they use." Mark Twain
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
I appreciate the words of experts such with decades of experience as it teaches me a lot about optics and the differences in binoculars and the benefits of various designs.
Which is, of course, part of the purpose of Cloudy Nights, to provide a friendly venue for the exchange of such information.
Quote:
On the other hand, it's unknowable what another person will value even with lower quality optics at a low price. After reading the posts here at CN, I'm well aware of how my low cost zhumells and Barska's do not perform as well as more expensive models and in fact some of the posts have taught me what to look for so I can see the flaws in use. On the other hand, not purchasing the cheaper models would not result in being that much closer to a good pair, because they are simply outside the budget I have, and within the limitations of the variations in quality control on the cheaper models I'm viewing a lot of cool stuff and enjoy them greatly.
In this, you come very close to stating one of the overall principles guiding all of Cloudy Nights. It matters less that you have the best available than that you are able to make the best possible use of what you can afford, and have a lot of fun doing so. After all, such encouragement is often what motivates people to upgrade when they have the chance. 
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 39716
Loc: Phx, AZ
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I'm mightly temped. I picked up the Oberwerk 15x70's several years ago. About two years later some Barska 15x70's were on sale for $69 or so, so I grabbed them too.
Did a little coarse backyard comparisons and the Barska's performed as well as the Oberwerks but had some nasty ghosting on objects like Jupiter. The image seemed pretty good but I did have to use those little adjustment screws so I could merge the image. For the money I figured I was not getting a premium product and expected some trade offs.
These binoculars are now regulated to my upper cabinet at work so anyone (and they do!) can borrow them to check out fires - we're on the 18th floor of city hall downtown Phoenix, and other things that just happen to create interest. I can leave these around and not worry about theft, they serve their intended purpose very well indeed.
Without the Obies I would be looking for another pair that performed better at night. If I was still stuck with a Kool-aid budget these would work; but there are limitation. Makes me wonder how these 20x80's would perform on Saturn. I really would like to see the rings of Saturn with binoculars but I'm loath to spend big bucks just for one target. 
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Ron,
Since you mentioned your comparison between the Oberwerk and the Barska 15x70's I will also mention that the 2007 Barska catalog lists the 15x70 X-Trail as having FC/Fully Coated optics.
The Zhumell web-site does not disclose the coatings for the 20x80mm, could be either FC or MC, at that price point one might speculate at the former.
Barska 20x80mm X-Trail is listed as MC optics. Also, the Barska 30x80mm X-Trail shows MC, however, I have had three of the 30x in my possession and they are stamped Fully Coated on the prism housings. Both the 20x and the 30x weigh the same.
If you are looking for an inexpensive binocular to view Satrun, the 30x magnification gives a better view than a 20x in the Barska. I have owned the 30x X-Trail for one year and do not recall any ghosting problems. Close focus for the 30x is approx. 100'.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/barska-30-x-80-x-trail-binoculars-ab10768.html
Here is a link for the Barska 30x80mm X-Trail review:
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/963440/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/vc/
p.s. You will find that the 30x is very nice for numerous targets.
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (12/08/07 03:31 PM)
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 39716
Loc: Phx, AZ
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My Barska's are at least two years old and I'm in no position to render an opinion on coatings: for starters I'm not at work so I can't take a look to inspect what they may have stamped what the coatings are supposed to be and I can tell they are coated but to what degree, how many etc. is beyond my skill set. I can see my face in the objectives so we can assume that they have at least one coat of something but not a premium coat.
Thanks for the heads up on the 30X. Pat G. has noted else where about his Miyauchi 20x77 "Exceed" Bs-iB Binoculars and those seem to the cat's meow.
At that price level Festool has a couple tools I'd rather have.  Too many hobbies. sigh
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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George Methvin
sage
Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 406
Loc: Central Texas
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I guess one of the points I was trying to make was that in this great land many people married or single with or with out familys make well under $30.000 dollars a year. With the rising cost of gas and taxs these can be hard times and most of these people get no rise or 2% rise a year if their lucky. Now thats just life but this hobbie sould not be just for the people that can afford to spent $30.000 a year on astro stuff. I thank its great if you can afford to buy the very best. Many people just can not afford that dream so have to settle for less then perfect astro gear if they want to enjoy this hobbie. So they look for the best they can get for what they can spend and you hope when you fine a so called bargain that it is a bargain and hope it works, if not you try to get a refund. I know $69.00 doe,s not sound like much to many of us but to some it a lot. As always it buyer bewear. If it were not for the cheap Chiness optic be it binoculars, eyepeices or telescope out there many people would not be able to get onto this hobbie. Sorry did not mean to get off the topic and carry on but some times its seems some people have more money then sence.
Edited by George Methvin (12/10/07 10:19 AM)
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