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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
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Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 10335
Loc: Oort Cloud
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: spaceydee]
      #1277275 - 11/30/06 03:15 PM

Perhaps what the industry needs is a "cross-over" product.

How about a telescope with built-in flat panel TV?
You see them in vehicles and even on refrigerator doors.
I think a 20" screen might fit on the side of a bid Dob's rocker box.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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photonovore
Moonatic
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Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2472
Loc: tacoma wa
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1277527 - 11/30/06 05:22 PM

I really doubt that today's rates of increase or decrease in astro equipment sales are much different than they were in the first 75 years of the last century. The only thing I have seen that un-flattens the sales curve of this market is the arrival of some spectacular & highly publicized object--a bright comet or a prime Mars opposition for example. Otherwise? Biz as usual. (unless you count the growth phase the internet was responsible for creating --for virtually all speciality retail sectors. But that has also "flattened out" in the last few years for most speciality sectors.)

As for the hobby's health... well, in the 70's i lived in a small (80,000) city. There was no astronomy club. Us kids were the only people we knew of that had and actually used telescopes in the whole town. Zero adults. (which was too bad as we could have used some mentoring!) Both the local colleges had scopes-- which were entirely disused (we checked, what they did have wasn't even operable anymore.) One of the State colleges had an actual early 20th century observatory--which was condemned and torn down in the 70's. Our only link to the wide world was Sky & Telescope and the public library. None of this slowed us down one bit--we all of us had a great time for several years. There were no articles we saw lamenting the end of the hobby either, although in reflection it was pretty bleak by today's standards, that's for sure.

I think it's fair to say that Comet Halley and a Mars opposition created both Celestron and Meade as solvent ventures. How many astronmy clubs were founded in the 80's? (The active one inmy hometown was, right after halley's comet came through!) Much of the growth in this hobby in the 90's was also comet driven--the return of Halley, Hyakutake in '96 and especially Hale-Bopp in '97. Nothing like publicity in the mass media to get people buying stuff is there? Especially since the last comet as spectacular as hale-Bopp came by way back in 1811! And having these spectacular cosmic visiters arrive at the dawning of the internet age didn't hurt either, mmm?

Anyway, i don't see video games, cable TV, disenchanted youth or any of the other usual suspects as especially relevant. Bring another Hale-Bopp through the urban skies and you'll see the astronomy sales curve go in a new direction. The core enthusiasts will always be there, but there never was enough of us to permanently support the size and growth of market that retailers would like to see. I see that as their problem---not mine.

The core will always be there. We didn't get into this because of fabulous comets advertised on the TV. But many of today's casual hobbyist population *did*. They won't last and that shouldn't surprise anyone. The market will readjust down to pre-spetacular visitor levels and it'll be business as truly usual from then until the next "event" brings in another crop of cosmic gawkers.


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LivingNDixie
Lord of Ferrets
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Reged: 04/23/03
Posts: 15790
Loc: Hoover, AL
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1277667 - 11/30/06 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't know, if it's a pleasant enough evening out, why not just get out a telescope versus sitting in front of a TV??




There's much less chance of a skunk wandering thru the living room.



You haven't seen that PBS ad yet have you...

--------------------
Preston



Celestron 11" Nexstar GPS XLT
Lunt LS60T/Ha 60mm f/8.33 (on order)

It’s not finishing something when your tank is empty that makes you a stronger person. It’s brushing yourself off and refacing the foe that defeated you with the same determination and willingness to fight that you had when you began your journey.


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edwincjones
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Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: LivingNDixie]
      #1278505 - 12/01/06 09:02 AM

My wife is a handweaver-she has gone through the cycle of Arts and Crafts shows, has considered a shop, and has seen many small craft stores come and go. A few make it, most do not after a few years. Business is tough for a small nitch product-business is tough for all.
Many of the astronony stores I ordered from 10 years ago are gone, many of the current stores will not be here in 10 more years. The successful ones will be the "smart" dealers who meet their customers needs and are lucky.

edj

--------------------

n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy



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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
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Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 10335
Loc: Oort Cloud
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: photonovore]
      #1278550 - 12/01/06 09:41 AM

Quote:

I really doubt that today's rates of increase or decrease in astro equipment sales are much different than they were in the first 75 years of the last century. The only thing I have seen that un-flattens the sales curve of this market is the arrival of some spectacular & highly publicized object--a bright comet or a prime Mars opposition for example. Otherwise? Biz as usual. (unless you count the growth phase the internet was responsible for creating --for virtually all speciality retail sectors. But that has also "flattened out" in the last few years for most speciality sectors.)

As for the hobby's health... well, in the 70's i lived in a small (80,000) city. There was no astronomy club. Us kids were the only people we knew of that had and actually used telescopes in the whole town. Zero adults. (which was too bad as we could have used some mentoring!) Both the local colleges had scopes-- which were entirely disused (we checked, what they did have wasn't even operable anymore.) One of the State colleges had an actual early 20th century observatory--which was condemned and torn down in the 70's. Our only link to the wide world was Sky & Telescope and the public library. None of this slowed us down one bit--we all of us had a great time for several years. There were no articles we saw lamenting the end of the hobby either, although in reflection it was pretty bleak by today's standards, that's for sure.






Rings quite true, Mardi.
Your experience during the 1970s was very similar to mine.
The only major diff. being that my nextdoor neighbor (who was a local park ranger) had an 80mm f/15 refractor, that he set up a couple of times and which really helped stoke the interest of me and the few other kids I knew that had the astronomy bug. When I went to highschool, there was no astronomy club there, the teachers all seemed very oblivious to stargazing and the school library only had a few very old astronomy books (which I ended up signing out a multitude of times). After 3 years at the school, a small group of us discovered that there had been as astronomy club active there in the 1960's and the remains of two reflector telescopes were hidden away in one of the classroom equipment closets. That was another major shot-in-the-arm to our interest level! Over the next summer, the scopes were brought back to working condition (again, with no guidance or assistance from school staff). Thankfully, tho, they did allow us to rebuild the scopes... I guess they coulda just said "No, leave that stuff where it is in the cupboard".
It was only after I left high school, that I found out about an astronomy club in the next town. No internet to utilize, one astronomy magazine (S&T) IF you could find it. Hardly any sold at newsstands. I don't think Astronomy magazine had made it into our area at the time.
The only stores withing a 30 mile radius that sold scopes and accessories were the local department stores and a few camera shops. And all they offered was Tasco or similar brands.
So, looking back on those times, astronomy was certainly more of a "fringe", almost underground, hobby that had no profile whatsoever. But, at least for me, it was a very magical time to be learning about the heavens and enjoying the results.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
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Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 10335
Loc: Oort Cloud
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: LivingNDixie]
      #1278553 - 12/01/06 09:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't know, if it's a pleasant enough evening out, why not just get out a telescope versus sitting in front of a TV??




There's much less chance of a skunk wandering thru the living room.



You haven't seen that PBS ad yet have you...




Hey, Preston.

Actually, I have. It's a good one!

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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mistyridge
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/28/05
Posts: 2268
Loc: Loomis, CA -26Mi E of Sacto.
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1279430 - 12/01/06 07:41 PM

Try getting into astronmy back in the late 1950s and early 60s. There were no scope dealers anywhere close to my town. if you wanted a scope such as a 8" newt you ground your own mirror made you own mount. Most of the people offering scope parts were small garage type operations. The exception being Unitron which a high schooler could only dream about. I bought everything I needed out of S&T ads. Times have nerver been so good, at least for the customer. There are so many choices today that one could literally go into paralysis by analysis try to decide what to buy. There has to be far more amature astromers out there than even 20 years ago or there would not be so many products being offered IMO. I think the internet is acually growing the hobby. Many may be armchair or internet amatures, hopefully some will become active and buy a scope.

--------------------
Mike F
Misty Ridge Observatory
Stellarvue SV115T "WOW"! What a view.
Stellarvue SV70ED
Stellarvue Nighthawk
18" f/4.5 Teeter's, Swayze mirror
12.5" f/5 Astrosky, OWL mirror
15X70 Binos
Mounts: DM-6,M-1,CG-5(ASGT)


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Mr. Bill
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Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: photonovore]
      #1281653 - 12/03/06 02:29 AM

Quote:

I really doubt that today's rates of increase or decrease in astro equipment sales are much different than they were in the first 75 years of the last century. The only thing I have seen that un-flattens the sales curve of this market is the arrival of some spectacular & highly publicized object--a bright comet or a prime Mars opposition for example. Otherwise? Biz as usual. (unless you count the growth phase the internet was responsible for creating --for virtually all speciality retail sectors. But that has also "flattened out" in the last few years for most speciality sectors.)

As for the hobby's health... well, in the 70's i lived in a small (80,000) city. There was no astronomy club. Us kids were the only people we knew of that had and actually used telescopes in the whole town. Zero adults. (which was too bad as we could have used some mentoring!) Both the local colleges had scopes-- which were entirely disused (we checked, what they did have wasn't even operable anymore.) One of the State colleges had an actual early 20th century observatory--which was condemned and torn down in the 70's. Our only link to the wide world was Sky & Telescope and the public library. None of this slowed us down one bit--we all of us had a great time for several years. There were no articles we saw lamenting the end of the hobby either, although in reflection it was pretty bleak by today's standards, that's for sure.

I think it's fair to say that Comet Halley and a Mars opposition created both Celestron and Meade as solvent ventures. How many astronmy clubs were founded in the 80's? (The active one inmy hometown was, right after halley's comet came through!) Much of the growth in this hobby in the 90's was also comet driven--the return of Halley, Hyakutake in '96 and especially Hale-Bopp in '97. Nothing like publicity in the mass media to get people buying stuff is there? Especially since the last comet as spectacular as hale-Bopp came by way back in 1811! And having these spectacular cosmic visiters arrive at the dawning of the internet age didn't hurt either, mmm?

Anyway, i don't see video games, cable TV, disenchanted youth or any of the other usual suspects as especially relevant. Bring another Hale-Bopp through the urban skies and you'll see the astronomy sales curve go in a new direction. The core enthusiasts will always be there, but there never was enough of us to permanently support the size and growth of market that retailers would like to see. I see that as their problem---not mine.

The core will always be there. We didn't get into this because of fabulous comets advertised on the TV. But many of today's casual hobbyist population *did*. They won't last and that shouldn't surprise anyone. The market will readjust down to pre-spetacular visitor levels and it'll be business as truly usual from then until the next "event" brings in another crop of cosmic gawkers.




Reminds me of the explosion of flyfishermen (and the ensuing pressure on stream fishing) after the movie "A river runs through it" Well, its all died down now and back to "business as usual."


--------------------
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos

Member IDA



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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
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Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14687
Loc: Hurricane Alley
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #1281842 - 12/03/06 08:49 AM

Quote:


Times have never been so good, at least for the customer. There are so many choices today that one could literally go into paralysis by analysis try to decide what to buy.





I have to agree Mike. In my two years in the hobby, I have bought an endless procession of gear, and only one piece was bought locally at Walmart (which has since been given away) ... all of the rest I bought from the internet.

But, there is a culturally-based decline in all interests that are short-attention-span friendly. I read an article last night in a 1970 S&T where a high school kid spent two years grinding his own lens for a 8" refractor! How many high school kids nowadays would do something like that? (pry them away from the XBox or MySpace) Just log online, point and click, and a 8" scope shows up UPS at your house in a week. So the internet is a mixed blessing. It has allowed us to network and purchase much easier, but it has also made us a bit more dependent and lazy.

I can honestly say, if I couldn't buy a 4" short tube anywhere because the internet didn't exist and I had no sources locally - then I would give a college try at something like that kid did (grinding his own lens/mirror) ... but, thanks to DSL and the WWW, I'll never try.

Clear dark skies...

MikeG

BTW - interest in astronomy isn't going anywhere......but dark skies are!

--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.



Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!



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Shneor
super member


Reged: 03/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Northern California
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: asaint]
      #1946653 - 10/29/07 08:07 PM

For many - maybe for most - amateur astronomers, all dealings with vendors are by phone, mail or email. I believe that one solution is for more vendors to attend star parties, where amateurs can try and buy - and maybe, trade in older equipment, as suggested. The last Shingletown Star Party, in July, saw just two vendors show up. When folks know vendors will be at the star party, they'll be sure to being their cash, checks and/or credit cards. They will also be able to form a relationship with the vendor, which will make future sales easier.

My .02

Shneor

--------------------
Shneor
22" f/4 Sayre Monocular+Tom O. Eq. Platform
Burgess 25x100 Binos+T&T Mount
Denkmeier Binoviewer
Assorted small telescopes, 90-114mm
13.1" Travel Telescope


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ForgottenMObject
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Reged: 09/11/04
Posts: 3585
Loc: Maryland, US
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: Shneor]
      #1947789 - 10/30/07 08:25 AM

What is sad to me at this moment is that not that long ago we were saying, "Gee, something spectacular like a really bright comet in the sky would help get people interested in astronomy again." Well, here we are with a really bright comet (Homes 17P) floating high in the evening sky, and what do we get? Not a single mention of it from the mainstream media! I guess our culture has become so anti-intellectual and so lacking in wonder that simply walking outside and looking up is too much effort. *sigh*

--------------------
Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces


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desertstarsAdministrator
Deja moo
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Reged: 11/05/03
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: ForgottenMObject]
      #1948051 - 10/30/07 11:16 AM

17P/Holmes is spectacular to the eyes of amateur and professional astronomers. But it does not provide the sort of spectacle I would expect to attract media attention. That requires the likes of a Hale-Bopp, or Shoemaker-Levy crashing into Jupiter.

17P/Holmes would have attracted little or no attention when I was a teenager (many Moons ago), and probably would not have prompted people to look up in the 19th century. Our days are not so different. Sometimes I fear we expect too much of those around us.

--------------------
Tom W.

SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars


Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.



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ForgottenMObject
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Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: desertstars]
      #1948849 - 10/30/07 04:56 PM

True, Tom, but still... The way I see it is that while this comet is not Hale-Bopp level, it is still bright enough for the average person to at least see it, and a set of binoculars (most folks have those) will at least show a yellow, fuzzy "star". Considering how rare good comets seem to be these days, even less than mind-blowing ones like Holmes should be promoted.

That, and with today's technology, even the less than obvious comets can be promoted. Back in the 19th century or even earlier this past century, if it wasn't a huge, bright comet, most folks wouldn't notice it. I can't blame them back then, but these days it just seems like a missed chance. That, and I cannot help by be frustrated when the media will devote so much attention to which celebrity is not wearing clothing or whatever, but they completely ignore this event.

I guess we do expect too much of those around us.

--------------------
Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces


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TonyDralle
sage
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Reged: 08/17/06
Posts: 381
Loc: Bethel Park, PA
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout new [Re: ForgottenMObject]
      #1948978 - 10/30/07 06:03 PM

Quote:

Well, here we are with a really bright comet (Homes 17P) floating high in the evening sky, and what do we get? Not a single mention of it from the mainstream media!




True until today. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the city's major paper, has a large article above the fold on page 1 today, with a map of how to find it.
- Tony

--------------------
- TonyD


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kfred
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Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 2005
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Re: From the Editor's Desk: Astronomy Biz Shakeout [Re: TonyDralle]
      #1950561 - 10/31/07 10:45 AM

We waste so much energy on lights and for what? In our haste, we ruin the night sky.

Fred

--------------------
River Cam - Cambridge England


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