Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
btschumy
Think Astronomy
*****

Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 1110
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
A comment on collimating binoculars
      #195253 - 09/13/04 08:34 AM

Yesterday, during the day, I decided to check and tweak my Obie 20x90 binocular collimation. With them well mounted, I looked at the corner of a roof about 100 meters away. Looking through the left tube, I put the corner at the far left edge. Then I looked through the right tube and was surprised to see the roof corner was off to the right, out of the FOV. I thought, wow, this is worse than I thought.

Then I did the same thing using a radio tower many miles away. This time the binoculars appeared to be in almost perfect left-right collimation.

I realized that when looking at something relatively close, if the tubes are parallel, the right tube is going to be looking about 8 inches (or whatever the inter-tube distance is) to the right of the left. That explained why looking at the roof corner didn't work for me.

I guess the moral of the story is that you really need to find something much farther than 100 meters to use for a collimation check. It surprised me that that distance wasn't sufficient, but it retrospect it makes since.

Does this observation mean that in some sense, if you are collimated at infinity, then you are not really collimated for close distance (and vice versa)?

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: btschumy]
      #195365 - 09/13/04 11:21 AM

Quote:

Yesterday, during the day, I decided to check and tweak my Obie 20x90 binocular collimation. With them well mounted, I looked at the corner of a roof about 100 meters away. Looking through the left tube, I put the corner at the far left edge. Then I looked through the right tube and was surprised to see the roof corner was off to the right, out of the FOV. I thought, wow, this is worse than I thought.

Then I did the same thing using a radio tower many miles away. This time the binoculars appeared to be in almost perfect left-right collimation.

I realized that when looking at something relatively close, if the tubes are parallel, the right tube is going to be looking about 8 inches (or whatever the inter-tube distance is) to the right of the left. That explained why looking at the roof corner didn't work for me.

I guess the moral of the story is that you really need to find something much farther than 100 meters to use for a collimation check. It surprised me that that distance wasn't sufficient, but it retrospect it makes since.

Does this observation mean that in some sense, if you are collimated at infinity, then you are not really collimated for close distance (and vice versa)?




To answer your last question first, YES, that is correct. You cannot collimate a binocular for close focus and infinity. It's one or the other.

But there is more than meets the eye going on here.

All you did was verify that the barrels are not perfectly in alignment. Almost every binocular will show the "field" does not match perfectly when a point of light at infinity is brought into collimation (merged) between the two barrels.

When you collimate on a star at infinity, you merge the point source light image delivered by the optical path of each barrel into alignment. But, if the optical path started out with one objective askew just a fractional amount from the other barrel, then when the images are merged, there may still be a difference in the fields between the two barrels.

Nearly every binocular I own has a difference in the two fields of view. The eyes can accomodate a difference in the fields up to about 3-4%. They can handle this field mis-match much easier than they can deal with the point source light of a star being not merged. The eyes can only handle a fraction of a percent difference in the merging of a point source. Assuming images are not merged and out of alingment by 2 arcminutes in a 12x50 binocular with a 5° field of view, that would be only slighly more than 1/2 of one percent. That would be enough to drive you to headaches. But as long as the stars throughtout the field are all merged, you wouldn't even notice the 3-4% difference at the edges of the fields.

None of the so-called user adjustments is truely collimating binoculars. It can be referred to as conditional alignment.

You may have aligned the fields of view, but you may have thrown the merging of the point source images further out of alignment. Better check on a star.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
btschumy
Think Astronomy
*****

Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 1110
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: EdZ]
      #195545 - 09/13/04 02:53 PM

Ed,

Thanks for the reply. So from what you say, the collimation instructions at http://www.oberwerk.com/support/collimate.htm are incorrect. They are just telling you how to align the fields.

I had previously collimated on a star. I am aware to the technique of centering a start, moving you eyes back and then letting your eyes relax when checking for collimation. The star images were merged, but it is never clear whether they appear merged because my brain is able to merge them, or because they are truly collimated. That's why it seemed easier to follow Oberwerk's instructions during the daytime.

BTW: The same procedure as Oberwerks for checking collimation is mentioned in Seyfried book, sold by University Optics (title is something like Choosing, Using, and Repairing Binoculars). How can these people have such misinformation out there? Is it just because the correct way is harder?

I guess I will need to build some sort of collimator to really nail this down properly.

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: btschumy]
      #195620 - 09/13/04 04:04 PM

They are not giving you false information. If your binoculars are so far out of whack, using a building to get it back close is a good idea. But that is truely just aligning the fields. In most cases, perfect field alignment and perfectly merged star images do not occur at the same time. In the best binoculars, they should.

I own Seyfried's book and have had discussion with him regarding some of the information in his book. Note that he also says in his book the best way to merge images in a binocular is on a star.

If a star is not merged by a wide enough separation, when you use the relaxed eye method, your brain will not bring it together. As it gets closer to being merged your eye/brain functions will merge it the last little bit. You may need to make a small separation bigger so your eye/brain function doesn't beat you to the punch.

If your binocular has stars not merged, but very close, so close that your eyes will pull them together, then while you are looking through the binoc, turn the screw the other way to make the separation a little bigger so your eyes cannot bring it together. let your eyes relax again. Look several times to see if they stay separated. Then, again while looking through the binocular, turn the screw to merge the image. You can get the image perfectly merged before your eyes have a chance to react to any small separation.

True collimation is the alignment of the objective lenses with the optical axis and then the merging of the images. if the binoculars were truly collimated and aligned to the optical axis, then the prisms would be perfectly perpendicular to the optical axis and parallel to each other. If you cannot move the objective lenses in their cell, you cannot truly do this. Few binoculars still provide for the means to move the objective lens.

Seyfried also describes the process of collimation by moving the objective.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
KennyJ

*****

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: EdZ]
      #195648 - 09/13/04 04:19 PM

I'm not qualified to dispute anything being discussed here, and don't think there really is anything "disputable" about what Ed has said , but one little to be careful of which I almost fooled myself with is always make ABSOLUTELY SURE that the interpupilary distance of the binoculars being "collimated" are set PERFECT to your own pupil separation , appropriate for the infinite nature of the object, if it is a STAR.

This sounds so obvious , but in the dark of night , it can easily be overlooked -- and if not exactly correct CAN make the images appear more separated than they actually are.

For months , I secretly suspected that my 15 x 70s were slightly out of collimation -- but after paying very careful attention to this little thing I realised they were in fact "near as dammit" -- or, as we used to say in the rock 'n roll guitar -tuning fraternity --perspiring on stage --mid -numbers -- pre - digital tuners --

"near'nough for JAZZ" !

Regards , Kenny.

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: KennyJ]
      #195729 - 09/13/04 05:52 PM

Thank you for mentioning this Kenny. When I first got my BT100 I thought that they were also mis-collimated. I was very disappointed and I dreaded having to go through a tedious procedure to remedy the situation. BUT, I took a closer look at the IPD, made some quick adjustments, and the next thing I see are perfectly pin-point crisp stars [at 25x]. WHEW! As it turned out the IPD was too large.

This was even more noticable at 63x. I thought the thing was broken in fact at that power! So, your IPD is crtical to know before a "conditional alignment" can be honestly made.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: btschumy]
      #195794 - 09/13/04 07:40 PM

Quote:

How can these people have such misinformation out there? Is it just because the correct way is harder?




I scream and cry on the inside, but keep my mouth shut! Is my lip bleeding yet!?

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
btschumy
Think Astronomy
*****

Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 1110
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: BillC]
      #195858 - 09/13/04 08:44 PM

Oh, come on Bill. Don't bite your lip. Tell us what you really think of the collimating instructions. What's the best that us mere mortals can do without a bunch of fancy equipment?

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rusty
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16406
Loc: Brooker, FL
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: btschumy]
      #195954 - 09/13/04 10:17 PM

The point in the Oberwerk instructions (not really clear), is that vertical collimation can be done with near objects. Horizontal collimation, due to convergence, has to be done with distant targets.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: btschumy]
      #196069 - 09/14/04 12:08 AM

Quote:

Oh, come on Bill. Don't bite your lip. Tell us what you really think of the collimating instructions. What's the best that us mere mortals can do without a bunch of fancy equipment?




A) If a mere mortal needs a collimator to tell whether or not his binocular is collimated . . . it doesn't NEED to be collimated.

B) the device described does only "conditional alignment" and does not take the axle into consideration.

C If I ever have time to finish my bino book--don't hold your breath--collimating instructions for SEVERAL conventions will be described.

D) Until then, just buy OPTICS AND OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS. It is the old US Navy Opticalman 3 & 2 and thoroughly describes the equipment and the tail of the arc method for collimation.

If there is ANY secret at all to this thing, it is just that you CAN'T disregard the AXLE.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
btschumy
Think Astronomy
*****

Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 1110
Loc: Austin, TX, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: BillC]
      #196079 - 09/14/04 12:25 AM

Well, I was just out looking at some stars with my Obies. Ed was right that what I did yesterday was align the tubes, not collimate. When I looked at a bright star and pulled my eyes back a bit, I got two images. I recollimated so now the stars are merged once again and now everything is copacetic again.

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: btschumy]
      #196151 - 09/14/04 04:52 AM

Quote:

Well, I was just out looking at some stars with my Obies. Ed was right that what I did yesterday was align the tubes, not collimate. When I looked at a bright star and pulled my eyes back a bit, I got two images. I recollimated so now the stars are merged once again and now everything is copacetic again.




I've been copacetic more than once; normally, X-Lax does the trick.

I liked your comments about the tubes being aligned but the optics not being collimated. That is where the AXLE that I harp so much about comes into the story.

The FIRST telescope must be collimated to the axle. Then, the second telescope can be collimated to the first. That, of course, makes it collimated to the axle, too.

Then, and only then, will the bino be collimated for a person with a 58mm IPD and a person with a 76mm IPD at the same time. Anything else is conditional alignment.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Claudio
sage
*****

Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: BillC]
      #196175 - 09/14/04 06:52 AM

As Bill has often affirmed, the binoculars collimation is a procedure that gets the perfect alignment of both optical axes with the mechanical axis (the hinge). If this is not done, if the optical axes are aligned but not with the mechanical axis, then the alignment obtained between the axes will be simply lost when changing a bit the interpupillary distance (IPD).
If you want to check the proper alignment of a binocular, the target must be at infinite or at something very similar. If the target is at 1000 m. and we try to collimate a binocular with about 20 cm of distance between the centre of the barrels, then, when the optical axes will be perfectly aligned to the target, they will be not parallel, but converging a bit. This bit is about 40 arc seconds. When pointing the binocular to a star, the two images of a star will be diverging 40 arc seconds. If you consider that the tolerance we could reasonably accept for divergence is 20 minutes of apparent field of view, it means that in a 20x the divergence tolerated between the two axes is 1 minute. Thus, if we collimate using a target at 1000m without taking in mind this, the alignment obtained will be already grazing the divergence tolerance limit. This horizontal misalignment produced by a not enough distant target can affect also the vertical alignment when the IPD will be changed. Let’s imagine what happens if we use a target at 100 m: optical axes convergence will be 10 times higher, thus not acceptable even in a roof binocular of very moderate magnification.

About a star as target. In my opinion a very far target in daylight is better. If the field of view is completely dark and you are looking at a very bright point, eyes are more prone to merge the images. This is at least my experience.

About collimation by tilting porro prisms. Before tilting prisms, these should be positioned not only to square them, but also to get already some alignment of the axes, in order to avoid the need of tilting prisms excessively, which would deteriorate the image quality. This sort of pre-collimation is useful also in binoculars with adjustments on the objective lenses, it order to avoid that the adjustment range allowed by eccentrical rings and objective cells becomes not sufficient to correct a too bad position of the prisms.

About the Oberwerk suggestions on collimation: this is the umpteenth site explaining how to get what is euphemistically called conditional alignment, i.e. the alignment of the axes without alignment to the hinge.
Sorry, this isn’t collimation.
Alii Service Notes and Seyfried’s book are good to know a bit of overhauling, but they don’t give enough information on collimation of the optical axes to the mechanical axis, which is indispensable for alignment at all the interpupillary distances. One of the three tomes of the Amateur Telescope Making does it, it is a very important text, but it explains how to do it with collimating equipments where the binocular is strongly attached to a mount (that generally is only for glasses with “nacked” hinge). For the moment being I have not yet found texts on collimation without collimating equipment.

Ed, I don’t understand how “perfect field alignment and perfectly merged star images do not occur at the same time”. If prisms are squared and alignment of axes and mechanical hinge is obtained, and if the field stops of the eyepiece are correctly positioned, alignment should be on the whole field of view . Am I wrong?

Bill, how can I get OPTICS AND OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS?

Claudio


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: Claudio]
      #196238 - 09/14/04 09:38 AM

Quote:

Ed, I don’t understand how “perfect field alignment and perfectly merged star images do not occur at the same time”. If prisms are squared and alignment of axes and mechanical hinge is obtained, and if the field stops of the eyepiece are correctly positioned, alignment should be on the whole field of view .
Claudio




Suppose you started with objectives that were not squared or centered to the mechanical axis and you have no way to reseat the objectives. No matter what you do with the mechanical axis and the squaring/tilting of the prisms, merging of star images and field edge alignment will not occur at the same time. In this case you go for merging, since it is the more critical error.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: Claudio]
      #196296 - 09/14/04 10:43 AM

I would hope (and pray) that any book describing the proceedure to optically and mechanically collimate binoculars does not crucially hinge on the need for collimation equipment. Most folks have stars, their eyes, and a screwdriver for "equipment". There needs to be instructions taylored for the typical enthusiast who DONT have an optical bench.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: ]
      #196451 - 09/14/04 01:08 PM

Quote:

There needs to be instructions taylored for the typical enthusiast who DONT have an optical bench.




It only takes experience. Under 10 power, I can collimate (MAKE THAT CONDITIONALLY ALIGN) by holding them in them with one hand and turning a screwdriver with the other.

BUT, YOU MUST BE ABLE TO STARE . . . AND I MEAN STARE! The brain wants to merge the images for you. You can't allow this to happen! The work must be done by the bino itself.

just some thoughts,

Bill

PS Amazon.com has 17 copies (new and used of BASIC OPTICS AND OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS) THE AVERAGE PRICE IS $4.41)

There is NO magic in binocular collimation. It's just that most people are too lazy to seek out and read authoritative information. If I were retired, I would have already had the whole En . . Encha . . .Inchal . . . an . . . taco on the list by now. However, two days ago, I signed on to work 6 days a week while my wife is finishing up her teaching certificate (the next YEAR), and all my "free time" is taken up in freelance writing. Shamefully, I have grown so accustomed to eating.

PPS In a few days I will attach a photo of the stage used with the Navy MK 5 collimator. It will give some of you guys a better idea about how the technique works.

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Edited by billcook (09/14/04 07:47 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
*****

Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: BillC]
      #196510 - 09/14/04 02:10 PM

[quote
PS Amazon.com has 17 copies (new and used of BASIC OPTICS AND OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS) THE AVERAGE PRICE IS $4.41)





Thanks Bill,

Now only 16 used copies left. next lowest price is $5.43

who's next?

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: EdZ]
      #196517 - 09/14/04 02:23 PM

Quote:

Thanks Bill,

Now only 16 used copies left. next lowest price is $5.43

who's next?

edz




You're welcome.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: BillC]
      #196543 - 09/14/04 02:57 PM

You mentioned 10x, but what about binocular telescopes? Like...oh..the BT100? They have a very different, at least to me, floating prism system. Which barrel needs the adjustment I can figure that out, but which nut out of 3 to rotate is anyone's guess. I am under the impression that trial & error and collimation don't go together well. There isn't any literature that came with BTs and Kevin (of Oberwerk) is too busy to gracefully answer all of my nagging questions (understandably).

I saw the book you mentioned at Amazon. It's a "Dover Publication" so if the used sell like hotcakes, there are plenty of cheap, $17, new ones available. If you highly recommend it and think it could be help me, I can gamble $17.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2110
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: A comment on collimating binoculars new [Re: ]
      #196570 - 09/14/04 03:30 PM

Quote:

I am under the impression that trial & error and collimation don't go together well. . .

If you highly recommend it and think it could be help me, I can gamble $17.




1) Trial and error works PERFECTLY well together . . . after a few years as a professional. However, it can be the kiss of death to those just getting started.

Those weird enough to want to get involved with the whole thing should go to a pawn shop or thift store and pick up a couple of old clunkers to practice on.

WARNING!!!! If you start doing stuff like this, realize you are on a slippery slope! You may fall off into the world of Telescope Making.

'Next thing you know, you'll smell the beeswax your wife uses to "zip" her legs, forget it's "date night," and wind up in the basement polishing a mirror. But, then, divorce lawyers have families, too.

2) Without a jig (test fixture) you can't tell WHICH is the offending side unless it is WAY out.

3) The book has a great section on understanding basic optics principles. Other than that, the very short bino collimation section may very well be all that interests you. It is full of metal work, what kinds of greases to use for this or that, and a bunch of boilerplate that pertains to Navy instruments that haven't been made in 40 years.

Please keep in mind that the collimation section deals only with instruments that are collimated with eccentric rings.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


Edited by billcook (09/14/04 03:32 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)


Extra information
4 registered and 16 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  EdZ 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 2721

Jump to

Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics