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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I've owned an LXD55 SN6 and the new LXD75 SN10. While both represent an excellent value for the money, I'm surprised and disappointed that Meade didn't take the time to do the little things that would make a good scope great. In most cases, the kinds of things I'm thinking of wouldn't add much to the retail price of the scope. Here's a list of things, which, improved, would add to the ease of use or reliability of the product:
1) The replacement of the soft metal hex head screws that secure the mirror and corrector plate w/ stainless steel screws.
2) A cam-type lock for the OTA dovetail.
3) An RA finder scope or a straight-through finder that could be converted to RA. The new finders have a threaded extension for the objective and if the main tube was just a little shorter a custom adapter would have allowed the fitting of a diagonal. Wouldn't it be nice if they gave you the option of ordering the scope with a RA finder?
4) The focuser, the only thing that gives the stock focuser any illusion of precision is the silicone glop that has been applied liberally to the rack. This glop also makes the focuser stiff. Wouldn't it be nice if they offered a Crayford as an option?
5) The secondary adjustment screws. I know I love the idea of being anywhere near the corrector plate with a screwdriver in the dark. How about knurled knobs (they're available aftermarket).
6) A Velcro or elastic mounted holster or the autostar handbox
I'm sure you folks who own these scopes could come up with a few more.
The question is would you pay an extra $100 - $150 dollars for these kinds of improvements?
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie again
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22464
Loc: NE Ohio
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I've never owned a telescope that another $50 or $100 wouldn't have improved in some way. The manufacturer must make a guess as to what features provide the best balance between minimum price and maximum functionality.
I'd hate to pay more for features someone else wants; I'd rather just add the ones I care about.
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John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200, CI-700
ST-10XME
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erik
telescope surgeon
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 24019
Loc: Hawaii 19 N lat -155 Long.
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i agree. most scopes (especially dobs and other newts) can be upgraded quite a bit. some of it is time consuming which is why it's more cost effective for us to do it than for the manufacturer to do it, as then they'd have to raise the price. as john mentioned, different people want different mods. modifiying your scope/mount is half the fun anyway! 
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-Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor
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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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It always gets down to a game of figuring out the features that will distinguish a product from it's competitors, while still allowing a price point that the customer base will support. The way I look at it is with the price of Asian astro equipment so low, today, it's a wonder that they come with any accessories at all. That said, I think items sold as a complete telescope package, should indeed be complete. EQ mounts should all come with polar scopes, and all reflector mirrors should come center spotted from the factory. Spotting the mirrors is something that factories could do at almost no additional cost, yet it's something that's a good bit more time consuming for the customer to do.
Anyway, to more directly answer the question, if you took all of the improvements that I'd like to see done to my Orion SVP 8 EQ and added them to the cost of the initial scope, it would be a $1000 scope package, not a $599 one. And that's enough of a price shift to likely drive a lot of potential customers away. The way it's done now, the customer can choose the speed at which they eventually get to $1000 by choosing when to add drive motors, RA scope, polar scope, curved spider vanes, flocking, better focuser, etc. Sure, I think they should've tossed in the polar scope and drive motors, but they did, if you look at it as a $750 scope to start with. A lot of folks who have the same scope probably wouldn't want exactly the same improvements that I would, and welcome it as a low cost scope as is.
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18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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spaceydee
Postmaster
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 15347
Loc: Where the Kittens Are
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I guess it comes down to what set up is right for you. I don't know, is it possible that some upgrades are cheaper from the manufacturer of a telescope rather than adding them later on?
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Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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OK, I believe my question has been answered.
Frankly I'm surprised. I was considering this question in the context of my own Meade 10" Schmidt Newtonian, all of the items I listed are either fit and finish or core usability issues. For $1,300, the cost of a 20hp garden tractor at Sears, I feel I am justified in expecting a quality product that doesn't require warranty-voiding modifications to make it usable.
As long as customers are willing to accept inferior components and quality, vendors will be more than happy to oblige.
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie again
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22464
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
As long as customers are willing to accept inferior components and quality, vendors will be more than happy to oblige.
To get both good optics and this level of technology for this kind of money, folks will have to compromise. If you look at old ads and see what $1300 would buy ten years ago, it would all make sense to you.
You CAN buy an excellent (or at least very good) telescope today in that aperture class for $1300 but it'll come without all the bells and whistles. Or you can buy a very good, portable 10" computerized telescope - but that'll run you about $2700. These are very definitely economy models fraught with compromises. The purchaser must make the choice.
We're a tiny group with a very specialized demand. This just isn't mainstream stuff; we don't benefit from the economy of scale that makes all the television/camera (and now garden tractor) comparisons inappropriate.
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John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200, CI-700
ST-10XME
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
This just isn't mainstream stuff; we don't benefit from the economy of scale that makes all the television/camera (and now garden tractor) comparisons inappropriate.
John, I don't see it that way, but your point is well taken, and fact, in a discussion with a colleague here at work, the very same view was expressed.
Your comparison to US or Japanese made scopes of yesteryear is arguably as inappropriate as you think my tractor comparison is. I don't pretend to know the manufacturing costs associated with the production of these scopes in China, but I'd venture to say, even without economies of scale, we would all be shocked at the landed cost of these things.
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erik
telescope surgeon
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 24019
Loc: Hawaii 19 N lat -155 Long.
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i agree with john, we are a tiny group. aside from scopes, isn't it telling that we must modify perfectly good cameras to make then suitable for astrophotography? if we were a bigger chunk of the camera market, canon would make the "astrophotography ready digital rebel". and the same goes for the rest of our gear. more people use tractors or watch TV (and the abbreviation doesn't mean "televue" this time  ) than use telescopes and astronomy gear, so the prices astronomy items is going to be higher, and with less R&D and competition. it's the old rule of supply and damand....
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-Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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OK, OK I give up!
It is a relatively small market, Meade, probably the largest player, posted a gross income of 138M for '04, Celestron, maybe a tenth of that.
My repaired GEM head for my LXD75 is arriving today. I've replaced the focuser and the finder, its dry and clear, and except for the moon, I expect I will have a very enjoyable time!
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Victor Kennedy
Pooh-Bear
Reged: 05/22/03
Posts: 9840
Loc: Slovenia
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Hmm. A large percentage of the posts on this, and other, astronomy boards consists of people trading information on where to get the best deals on any given piece of equipment. Generally, we all want the most for the least, and when we are looking for the best "bang for the buck", go for Orion, Meade, Celestron, etc. However, those who are willing to pay for quality go for Televue, or Astrophysics, who, as I recall sell, or sold, a CAT that cost rather more than Meade's or Celestron's (however, we still seem to try to get the best price for those makes, too).
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To err is human; to moo is bovine.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Some people are willing to pay for quality. These are the folks that buy Vixens, Takahashis, APs, Starmasters, Portaballs, D&Gs, etc. At these levels, most of the accessories needed are included, but you have to pay the price. If you're not familiar with it, check out teeterstelecopes.com The scopes being sold there will provide all the extras anyone could want. (I would really like that 10" f7. Repeat to myself..."do not need another scope. Do not..."
Gary
Edited by Gary D. (09/02/04 01:40 PM)
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Rammysherriff
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Lancs, UK.
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Look at it another way - what would a scope manufacturer charge you for the priviledge of clagging something on your scope which you can clag on yourself when you can afford it? I reckon it works out cheaper bit by bit to buy what they sell then sneak up on perfection bit by bit.
To whit, my Newt has had most of what was requested in the initial post bit by bit where needed.
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Simon.
One man and his shed: http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb288/Astroshed/
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erik
telescope surgeon
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 24019
Loc: Hawaii 19 N lat -155 Long.
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Quote:
Some people are willing to pay for quality. These are the folks that buy Vixens, Takahashis, APs, Starmasters, Portaballs, D&Gs, etc. At these levels, most of the accessories needed are included, but you have to pay the price. If you're not familiar with it, check out teeterstelecopes.com The scopes being sold there will provide all the extras anyone could want. (I would really like that 10" f7. Repeat to myself..."do not need another scope. Do not..."
Gary
i disagree with that a bit. i'm always shocked to see that advertised prices of top of the line scopes often only include the ota. for $4K i'd at least like tube rings with my scope....
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-Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor
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Chris G
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4027
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I agree with you Erik, one of the reasons I like Stellarvue's, they come with rings and a red dot finder, some come with diagonals and cases. Some may think they're high priced I think they're a good value.
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"Ain't nothin' Human 'bout the Human Race"
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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There's one thing about this discussion that I'd like to comment on further. Several people have suggested that somehow it would cost less if we purchase and install higher quality components ourselves than if the manufacturer included them as part of the package.
In all the cases I described in my initial post, they would cost far less if included in the initial purchase. When we buy finders, focusers or even hardware for our scopes we are, in most cases, paying retail prices and shipping. For items like focusers and finders, the manufacture already incurs a cost to provide and install them, any additional cost is the differential between the cost of the original and the improved item.
Additionally, in the case of something like a focuser, the difference between a Chinese-made R&P focuser and Chinese-made Crayford-style focuser would be in the order of tens of dollars not hundreds.
I guess what I was getting at was should the amateur community expect a baseline of features and quality for scopes pakages, other than department store models? More specifically, would purchasers of Celestron Advanced Series, or Meade LXD series scopes pay the extra $100-$150 for a decent focuser and a finder that they could use right out of the box, rather than having to spend $350 to replace them immediately after purchase? Of course, this argument only makes sense if you believe that some of the stock components are virtually unusable, but based on posts in other forums, many feel this way.
From the responses so far, it would seem that we prefer the latter arrangement, and so, no fault to the vendors for providing what we want.
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie again
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 22464
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
From the responses so far, it would seem that we prefer the latter arrangement, and so, no fault to the vendors for providing what we want.
Yup. If I pay for a premium focuser or finder I want to choose it.
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John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200, CI-700
ST-10XME
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BluewaterObserva
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 4763
Loc: Zuni Mtns, NM
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Me too on the I'd rather choose it angle, if Meade or Celestron included these things, people would just gripe about the quality / style of the products they include, and go buy the what they really wanted in the after market anyways. lol
I'm pretty happy with what I paid and what I got overall, on both my refurb LXD55 mount, and my new LXD75 setup. Of course, I didn't even mount the 6" newt OTA that came with my LXD75, so I can't even comment on the focuser, mirror cells, secondary spiders, ect..ect....
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