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helpwanted
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 1757
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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just had first light with three new EPs, and i am wondering about the eye position with the 19Pan. THe 13T6 i had to keep my eye back, and just barely touch the eyecup, which i was told is correct... and i agree, the views were great... but the Pan, with 13mm eye relief, seemed to need me to put my eye all the way into the eyecup to see the whole fov... is this correct?
also, there seemed to be something going on with the edges... astigmitism? coma? field curvature? it was hard to tell... there were high thin clouds... but i did not see any effects other than dim views when the clouds were in the way. and the scope is perfectly aligned, spent time on that first...
so the edges looked very disapointing at first, then when i got my eye into the eyecup, everything changed to a beautiful view, with just a hint of something on the edge.
is this normal for the 19mm Pan?
by the way... 13T6 - beautiful and sharp all the way to the edges... 7mm Burgess/TMB sharp and perfect all the way to the edges!!! of course the sky would let me go higher than the 7mm, and the 5mm was in and out... a 6mm would have been perfect, but my 6mm SPL is sitting in a UPS warehouse waiting for a Monday delivery to me !
Edit: i changed the name of the subject to Field Curvature
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Edited by helpwanted (11/18/07 08:08 PM)
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helpwanted
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 1757
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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also... to follow up, i thought for sure that putting my eye that far into the eyecup would result in a gunked up lens in need of cleaning... after i made the above post, then looked at the lens, it's perfectly clean! so i am thinking i was correct in putting my eye into the cup, since the view was good and the lens was clean.
but my question about the edges still stands...???
thanks in advance, David
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imeridian
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 08/22/07
Posts: 893
Loc: South Central PA
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I'd put five cents on it being coma. Did it look like little comets (coma) or little crosses (astigmatism)? Field curvature can be corrected by simply refocusing, so it's really easy to test for. When you have all three it's like little birdies flapping their wings when you move through focus.
-------------------- Zhumell 10" Dobsonian
Don't know how to shorten links in posts? Click Here!
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Tom L
   
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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I'd agree with imeridian's assessment there...check for field curvature first and try to rule it out. If the stars at the edge are not focused but the stars in the center are, and then you put the stars at edge into focus the center stars are now out of focus, that's FC. If its not field curvature then look at the image at the edge of the stars. If they are V-shaped pointing in toward the center then you have coma.
Here is a good article on coma: http://www.opticalmechanics.com/about_coma.htm
For astigmatism, look at figure 19 in this article and notice that if you rotate in and out of focus you will see that the image will move from one axis to the perpendicular axis as you go through focus on one side to the other.
-------------------- Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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helpwanted
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 1757
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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now that i think about it, i would say field curvature, i could focus the edges and the center was out.
is the 19Pan known for FC?
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Tom L
   
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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I can't recall from the 19mm pan I had (replaced with the perfect eyepiece, the 20mm NT5). I don't think it bothered me that much when I used it because it never really stayed in the focuser long enough. I mainly used it on my way from a 35mm pan to a high mag EP. The 20NT5, however, has obsoleted both of my panoptics since I now start (and sometimes just stay) with the 20mm. I keep the 35mm pan as my low power wonder...it is a keeper for sure (if you already own it).
-------------------- Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2956
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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I've said it allready many times on CN, i see field curvature in my pan 19. It 's easily to check out on the moon. Put the moon centered, focus. Put the moon on the edge, it's unsharp, refocus and it becomes pretty sharp again.. I agree there will be coma too but FC is definately an issue in the pan 19, at least to my eyes in my scopes... I can not do that with the pan 24, the moon remains almost as sharp as centered...
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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helpwanted
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 1757
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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So Freddy, do we have bum units, or is this normal?
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 1736
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According to Televue (Al Nagler himself), the Panoptic design is a flat field design.
The only notable distortion is pincushion.
I have seen lots of people say that this or that Televue design had field curvature, but in my super flat field Vixen 140, I have never detected even a Trace of field curvature in any Televue Panoptic or Nagler that I have ever plugged into that scope.
Newtonion telescopes have VERY slight amounts of field curvature, but the DOMINANT off axis abberation is Coma. But is is possible that because of the coma, the field curvature of the primary mirror is more detectable when using widefields. I Don't know. But that is my guess.
But the Naglers and Panoptics are pretty stinking flat designs. In the Vixen 140, every one of these eyepieces have ever put in to it has been esentially pinpoint rigth to the edge. Now I will be the first to admint that I have not actually tried a 19mm, but I have tried several other Panoptics and T1, T4, T5, and T6 Naglers, and none of them had any noticible field curvature when used in the Vixen 140.
Find someone in your club or area with a Televue 127. If you want to see how magnificent a Panoptic or Nagler really can be, press your eye into that combo, and your entire frame of reference as to what super wide field viewing is will be forever changed.
Now when you use ANY of these eyepieces in a SCT telescope, the field curvature of the telescope will be GLARINGLY apparent. But this is the TELESCOPE, and NOT the eyepiece.
Again, Newts do have some minor field curvature, but the Coma is the dominant abberation. But if you are seeing the edge sharpen a tiny bit, or can accomodate the field by focusing on the edge or near the edge, and use accomodation to focus the center of the field, then what you are most likely seeing is field curvature of the TELESCOPE and not the eyepiece.
Regards.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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Stephonon
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/28/05
Posts: 1873
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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I see what looks like astigmatism with Panoptics 19, 22, 27, 35mm in 8-12" Newts f/6 and faster (esp faster). It's not my eyes because I don't see it with some other widefields of similar focal lengths.
-------------------- Steve H --- Dobs: Saxon/SW 10" f/4.7, GSO 8" f/6, custom truss 8" f/4 | Intes MK-65 (6" Mak) + EQ | binos: Pentax PCF 8x40, AOE 10x50MX Ultra, AOE 12x60.
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helpwanted
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 1757
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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i was out last night with the scope... i can definately focus either the center or the edge, and when the edge is sharp, there is no coma or any other abberation...
if i were to send this EP back, what other choices do i have in the 21mm, 20mm, 19mm area?? 21mm Hyper... 18mm Radian...???
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Edited by helpwanted (11/20/07 09:31 AM)
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spencerj
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 577
Loc: Derry, NH
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In my 80mm Apo and Mak Newt, the 19mm Panoptic is very flat. I see no field curvature. Stars are pinpoints all the way to the edge. Before I picked up my 17mm Nagler T4, this was my most used eyepiece.
In my 10" F4.7 dob, the astigmatism in my own eyes bothers me a little. I cannot focus stars to perfect points--close, but not like my Apo or Mak Newt. Additionally, the outer edge (last 10%) looks slightly out of focus. Since the 19mm Panoptic performs so well in my other scopes, I have always chalked this up to coma in the Newtonian.
-------------------- --Jason
"I am the victim of a series of accidents, as are we all." --Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Intes-Micro MN66 with Moonlight CR1 focuser
TeleVue 102
PST
Unistar Deluxe with TeleVue Sky Tour
CG-5 ASGT (quieted and tuned-up by Trapezium Telescopes & Services)
10" Orion Dob
WO 66 SD (stays in my truck for spontaneous observing sessions)
15x70 Oberwerk Binos
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3229
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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I think in fast Newts there can be complexities in the combination, scope and eyepiece. The Newt has residual aberrations. It seems fashionable nowadays to point out the least significant--slight field curvature, but of course there is coma and some astigmatism as well. You have to understand first of all that the so-called focal plane of a telescope (or eyepiece) isn't usually a "real" thing. The focal plane is construed to be where, on the whole, residual aberrations least affect the image. Astigmatism in eyepiece and telescope can combine in complex ways, reinforcing or canceling in whole or in part. The result can bias the shape of the focal plane of the entire system. That is to say, you can have a flat-field telescope and a flat-field eyepiece, and the result may not have a flat field if both eyepiece and telescope have astigmatism off-axis. We're not talking about large amounts of astigmatism here, but we're also not talking just astigmatism. There's coma, some curvature, maybe a little collimation error thrown in, and it's small wonder that some eyepieces work better than others just because of how they match up. We haven't even begun to factor in the way exit pupil affects the perception of curvature, nor any complexities arising from figuring errors in the primary or secondary of the Newtonian.
So, I don't know whether a given sample of a 19mm Panoptic might have curvature its designer never intended, but even without that the complexity of the situation does admit the possibility of a 13T6 working great and a 19Pan not working as well with a particular telescope, as seems to have occurred here.
One thing I am increasingly sure of is that facile attempts at blaming coma or curvature of the Newt are never going to answer the questions. Unless Tele Vue (the guys with all the information on Tele Vue designs) wants to do some kind of dissertation on fast Newts without Paracorrs and Tele Vue eyepieces, I think we have no alternative but to respect the empirical results that people get. If they are making their first foray into wider apparent fields, then coma is a prime suspect, since it is more apparent at larger apparent field angles, regardless of magnification. If they are saying that some other eyepiece is unaffected and yet it should be similarly or more greatly affected, then that explanation is significantly weakened. Bear in mind that an experienced observer with an un-Paracorred fast Newt knows what that coma looks like when they are happy with an eyepiece. It's the same coma when they are unhappy but something must be making it worse.
Tales of wondrous performance in dramatically different telescopes can be useful to a point, but more useful would be reports of different performance in a very similar type of scope, as this raises the spectre of sample variation. Likewise, similar performance in similar scopes diminishes that.
-------------------- Mike
- 7" f/6.7 home-built planetary Newt
- 35mm Panoptic
- 13mm Ethos
- 5mm Tak LE
- 2x TV Barlow
- Canon 10x30IS Binoculars
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2956
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Quote:
i was out last night with the scope... i can definately focus either the center or the edge, and when the edge is sharp, there is no coma or any other abberation...
Exactly my experience too...
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2956
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Quote:
According to Televue (Al Nagler himself), the Panoptic design is a flat field design.
The only notable distortion is pincushion.
I have seen lots of people say that this or that Televue design had field curvature, but in my super flat field Vixen 140, I have never detected even a Trace of field curvature in any Televue Panoptic or Nagler that I have ever plugged into that scope.
Newtonion telescopes have VERY slight amounts of field curvature, but the DOMINANT off axis abberation is Coma. But is is possible that because of the coma, the field curvature of the primary mirror is more detectable when using widefields. I Don't know. But that is my guess.
But the Naglers and Panoptics are pretty stinking flat designs. In the Vixen 140, every one of these eyepieces have ever put in to it has been esentially pinpoint rigth to the edge. Now I will be the first to admint that I have not actually tried a 19mm, but I have tried several other Panoptics and T1, T4, T5, and T6 Naglers, and none of them had any noticible field curvature when used in the Vixen 140.
Find someone in your club or area with a Televue 127. If you want to see how magnificent a Panoptic or Nagler really can be, press your eye into that combo, and your entire frame of reference as to what super wide field viewing is will be forever changed.
Now when you use ANY of these eyepieces in a SCT telescope, the field curvature of the telescope will be GLARINGLY apparent. But this is the TELESCOPE, and NOT the eyepiece.
Again, Newts do have some minor field curvature, but the Coma is the dominant abberation. But if you are seeing the edge sharpen a tiny bit, or can accomodate the field by focusing on the edge or near the edge, and use accomodation to focus the center of the field, then what you are most likely seeing is field curvature of the TELESCOPE and not the eyepiece.
Regards.
If the scope would produce it why do i see it in the 19 and not in the 24 ? How to explain?
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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Tom Trusock
   
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 27390
Loc: Alternate Reality (TM)
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Quote:
I think in fast Newts there can be complexities in the combination, scope and eyepiece.
I think you also need to take into the eye / brain factor as well. (Not to mention the seeing and target.)
FC is a tough one. Mike and I have been round and round about FC in another of TV's eyepieces and I'm still thinking personal vision plays a very very large part of the entire equation.
It's one thing to say how the eyepiece performs as an absolute. It's another to say how it performs to specific individuals with certain telescopes.
-------------------- There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.
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Tom Trusock
   
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 27390
Loc: Alternate Reality (TM)
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Freddy - do you observe with or without your glasses?
-------------------- There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3229
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
If the scope would produce it why do i see it in the 19 and not in the 24 ? How to explain?
I think any explanation blaming the telescope in total would be grasping at straws. A thin, brittle straw that falls apart when you pull on it is something having to do with exit pupil. You can forget that one with such an minor difference in exit pupil. However, one of the thicker straws to grasp at is that there is slight vignetting in the 24mm due to the tight fit of the 27mm field stop in the barrel--parts of the edge of field light cone are clipped by the barrel, but only in close proximity to the field stop. Incidentally, this is probably why the 24mm Panoptic has such a short barrel. Again, I don't think this is explanatory, exactly, but it is the only mitigating factor I can think of, given that I was told by Tele Vue that the other Panoptics have the same performance as the 24mm (when I asked about the 27mm). Incidentally, to this day, the 24mm is the only Panoptic I've ever tried.
-------------------- Mike
- 7" f/6.7 home-built planetary Newt
- 35mm Panoptic
- 13mm Ethos
- 5mm Tak LE
- 2x TV Barlow
- Canon 10x30IS Binoculars
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3229
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
I'm still thinking personal vision plays a very very large part of the entire equation.
I agree with you, Tom, in general, at least that it may play a large part. In particular, however, I would consider all the data presented in a case study and see whether it fits the data.
More data can be better. Some things for people to try would be masking down the scope with a centered aperture mask. Field curvature should not be much affected, while coma in fast Newt, and astigmatism in telescope, eyepiece, and eye are reduced. Then, for inward curving fields, if you carefully focus the center at infinity (focus from outside in and stop immediately when focused is reached, do not rock the focuser, simply back off and have another go if you think you went too far), you can remove accommodation from the equation as you pan to the edge to see whether an inward touch-up is needed there. If not, you can check for an outward curving field by reversing the procedure, focusing the edge at infinity and panning to the center to see whether an inward focus touchup is needed there. Either way this should be repeated at 90 degree intervals around the edge (or smaller intervals if you suspect astigmatism in the observers eye). I like to use digital calipers so that I can subtract the scope's curvature. Anyway, different results at different angles implicates either collimation in the scope or astigmatism in the observer, assuming a star test of the eyepiece on-axis, rotating the eyepiece, reveals no astigmatism in the eyepiece (seen this with a cheap plossl once that had a jammed lens).
-------------------- Mike
- 7" f/6.7 home-built planetary Newt
- 35mm Panoptic
- 13mm Ethos
- 5mm Tak LE
- 2x TV Barlow
- Canon 10x30IS Binoculars
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F.Meiresonne
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 2956
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Without glasses, Tom
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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