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rumples riot
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Write up for peltier cooling an SCT
      #1995171 - 11/19/07 08:39 AM

Several months ago I posted a link to SCP about cooling my C14 with peltier coolers.

I have now done a how to and the link can be found in my signature. It has all the images and detail that I could think of.

I hope that those of you with SCT's will consider this option. Mirrors can be brought to temperature quickly and efficiently doing this modification.

I also urge people with newtonians to investigate Bird's site and his excellent article on mirror cooling. It is his invention. I just merely adapted it to suit my C14. To the best of my knowledge it will work with a C11, however I am not sure if it will work with a C9.25. Although smaller parts may make this posible.

I might also work on Meade 12" and 14" LX200R scopes. You will have to negotiate the mirror locking system for this though.

Best of luck. Please consider this as an option.

Paul Haese

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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David Rivas
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #1997135 - 11/20/07 12:02 AM

Thank you very much Paul for such an excellent, detailed and brave link!
I homemade a cat-cooler myself , it works well for my humble 8 incher... but I guess it's not as effective and swift as having the coolers built in... something to consider indeed... it seems to be so easy when one reads your splendid link...

Best regards,

David


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: David Rivas]
      #1997234 - 11/20/07 12:53 AM

Paul, Thanks for the work and for so generously sharing your results! I firmly believe you and Bird have started a lasting trend.

Still lumbering along on my Peltier project. It's looking like something from a child's old toy box, but it should work. It's now mostly a matter of a few more nylon screw attachments and wiring. At least I think so.

Thanks again for the info and motivation.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


Edited by gazerjim (11/20/07 06:06 AM)


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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #1997291 - 11/20/07 01:55 AM

Hey Jim it is Paul not Mike. I wrote the article and did the mod.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #1997452 - 11/20/07 06:08 AM



Paul, Apologies and error corrected.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #1997460 - 11/20/07 06:24 AM

Thanks Jim, accepted. Do you have some images of your setup too? Why not put it in here. The more people doing this the better.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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Bird
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #1997487 - 11/20/07 07:12 AM

Nice writeup Paul, and also a spectacular Jupiter image as well :-)

We can't control the seeing, but we can control pretty much everything else...

cheers, Bird

--------------------
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PGR Dragonfly Express, PGR Dragonfly 2
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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Bird]
      #1997504 - 11/20/07 07:28 AM

Thanks Anthony, if we can control everything else, we have got a half way decent chance at getting a really nice image.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #1999560 - 11/21/07 01:50 AM Attachment (27 downloads)

It's not pretty. But here is progress so far on my Peltier cooling cap.

Liberal use of duct tape is due to the plastic cracking while being drilled. If the concept works, I may use the old plexiglass as a pattern to make one from lexan.

The peltier unit is mostly hidden under the heat sink, which is bolted to the plexiglass with nylon screws. I'm hoping they do not soften overmuch due to heat.

Hanging the external fans from bungees is not aimed at vibration control as I don't expect to image with the peltiers running anyway. I originally planned to bolt the fans, heat sinks, and peltiers in place with one set of long nylon screws and so sized the heat sinks for the fans. This went awry when I couldn't find nylon screws long enough. I'll try to post a pic when complete to show the whole gizmo with much smaller internal fan on standoffs.

As I said earlier, if this works it should prove that
almost anyone can build a Peltier cooler.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #1999562 - 11/21/07 01:51 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

Another view,

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #1999652 - 11/21/07 04:05 AM

Looking good Jim, once you get it going, you can mod it at some point. Make sure you seal the unit in place to prevent warm air making it into the tube.

More pics please.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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Aaron Worley
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #2000474 - 11/21/07 01:43 PM

This is really cool stuff. After looking at the back of my C9.25, I don't think there's room to do a mod like this unfortunately. Would there be any benefit to installing a peltier cooler on the side of the OTA tube instead? I've seen this done for newts, but never on an SCT.

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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Aaron Worley]
      #2000928 - 11/21/07 05:40 PM

Aaron, you could install it on the side, maybe right near the corner of the actual back and where it heads up to join the tube. There is just enough room to put a fan on the inside near that spot. One on each side would work well. Lateral thinking, well done. I wish I had thought of that at the time I owned a C9.25.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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davidpretorius
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #2003419 - 11/22/07 10:06 PM

Quote:

Looking good Jim, once you get it going, you can mod it at some point. Make sure you seal the unit in place to prevent warm air making it into the tube.

More pics please.




spot on, you want to recirculate the cooling air over and over again.

great piece of work there Jim

--------------------
Davo

10" peltier cooled Next with dob driver II, Lu075 camera


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: davidpretorius]
      #2003632 - 11/23/07 12:30 AM

Thanks, guys, for comments and suggestions. I'm trying to view this as a prototype--another term for for messy first run. But it should work as long as the fans keep the heatsinks cool enough.

I've sketched out a simple schematic that uses two 20 amp switches so that the inside fan can be run by itself but will always be running whenever the peltiers are on. No biggie.

Quote:

Would there be any benefit to installing a peltier cooler on the side of the OTA tube instead?




Aaron, Are you talking about the side of the OTA (curved) or the back plate? No doubt a 9.25 with active cooling would be a real planet killer.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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Aaron Worley
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #2004611 - 11/23/07 04:05 PM

Hi Jim, I'm not sure yet. I'm looking at putting the fans and coolers on either the curved sides of back plate (roughly where you attach the finder scope), or on the sides of the steel OTA tube.

I'm not sure either arrangement will cool the scope as well as the way Paul has his fans, blowing right on the back of the mirror. But I'm going to take a crack at it as an experiment, I'll report back.


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Aaron Worley]
      #2005215 - 11/23/07 10:43 PM

Sounds interesting. The peltiers pretty much need to seat on a flat surface. But maybe there is a technique for mounting on curves. Anyway, looking forward to seeing pics of your progress.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


Edited by gazerjim (11/23/07 10:43 PM)


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Aaron Worley
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #2021597 - 12/01/07 04:29 PM

An update on my C9.25 peltier concept. It was pretty much a non-starter, since upon further inspection there's no clearance on the inside of the OTA tube for fans. Any internal fans on the side of the OTA will stick out into the light path, and possibly bump into the primary when focusing, depending on where you place it.

On to Plan B. Since I haven't figured out how to affix the peltiers, I'm going to test out a fan-only system. I've put an external, 12v fan on my OTA that blows outside air into the tube, across the face of the mirror. Once I get a clear night here (might be a while) I'll post some results and photos.


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Aaron Worley]
      #2022300 - 12/01/07 10:24 PM

Aaron, Seems like if you are going with a fans only system a Lymax cooler might do just as well.

Only solution I can imagine without mounting a fan inside the OTA might be to blow in chilled and filtered air by way of a small duct or tube. Don't ask me how.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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asimov_1
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #2022653 - 12/02/07 05:02 AM

I've tried bolting a peltier to a Catcooler; it failed to get it to ambient.

The next best thing to do is what I do with my C11. I house it in a tote & add ice bricks from the freezer 6 or 7 hours before commencing imaging. It's a bit of a guessing game but with a bit of trial & error,it works well.

--------------------
CS's

Asi

CGE1100XLT - DMK 21AU04.AS USB version

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Bob R.
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: asimov_1]
      #2026445 - 12/03/07 10:32 PM

Paul,

Excellent job on this project. The results speak volumes. Couple of quick questions:

Do you have a recommended parts list for the items you've used?

What do you use to control you Peltier to ensure you don't experience thermal runaway?

in advance thank you for your advice.

Bob R.

--------------------
Meade LX200, 25.4cm, f10, UHTC, GPS
SAC7b Camera

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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Bob R.]
      #2026536 - 12/03/07 11:19 PM

I bought my Peltiers from

http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs_imax.html?gclid=CMPn-8WH3o4CFVB1OAod6w4vRw

They have yet to see first voltage; except for one connected to a 9V battery to confirm hot and cold sides. The number of choices offered can be a bit confusing. Notice also that the Peltiers come in at least 2 basic types: sealed and unsealed. Sealed simply means that the "sandwich" that is the Peltier is factory sealed edge on to keep out moisture.

I'm not familiar with thermal runaway in Peltiers. I would guess that adequate heatsinks and heatsink cooling should
obviate the problem. Paul is our Peltier Guru here and probably has more info.

ADD. I've since done some googling about thermal runaway in Peltiers. This has me wondering if I should feed mine with a
Pulse Width Modulator or current limiting device??

http://reference.techpowerup.com/Thermoelectric_Cooling


Jim

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


Edited by gazerjim (12/03/07 11:58 PM)


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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #2028375 - 12/04/07 07:06 PM

Bob, sorry I dont really have a recommended parts list, although the peltiers Jim bought will be fine.

To stop run away I watch the temperature unit. This gives a pretty accurate reading. I am planning on another modification in the new year, perhaps a sensor on the edge of the mirror and one in the actual air itself.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #2040749 - 12/10/07 05:29 AM Attachment (26 downloads)

Thanks again to Paul for making this an open thread for peltier projects.

Here's the latest pic of my newt cooler. It gets less aesthetically pleasing as work progresses. But I think an endpoint is finally within sight.

I have placed a terminal strip on each inside face of the box; one for a + bus and the other (-). Radio Shack stocks these along with an optional strip fitting one side which makes all connections electrically common for each strip.
The next step will be to solder spade lugs to wire ends from the peltiers and the fans. One switch will activate the small inside fan (not shown). Both switches on will run the works. The box should be plenty crowded with wires.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


Edited by gazerjim (12/10/07 05:29 AM)


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Bob R.
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #2047069 - 12/12/07 09:19 PM

Jim,

Evidently thermal run away comes into play when you try to pump more heat into the heat sink than it can handle. Once this happens, the peltier, rather than pump heat, starts to act as a resistor and becomes a 'heater'. Unfortunately, this is a non-linear phenomenon, and if left unchecked, the peltier can get very hot in short order. I experienced this when I got a little too aggressive with the current.

I've found an outfit that sells a pulsewidth modulated controller for about $50. It uses a PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller to quickly approach a temperature set point, but according to the manufacturer can only hold +/- half a degree. From what I've read from Paul, it appears you need to get the mirror to something on the order of 0.1 degree. This controller might still be useful, but not for controlling to a set point or reference temperature, i.e. outside temperature.

Bob R.

--------------------
Meade LX200, 25.4cm, f10, UHTC, GPS
SAC7b Camera

Adaptive optic, 7mm, f3, bino-viewer



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gazerjim
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Bob R.]
      #2047816 - 12/13/07 06:49 AM

Thanks for the good info, Bob! I'm a newbie to peltiers. But I know that circuits handling high current and/or voltage can go haywire in spectacular ways. It would be nice to have control of the feed power.

Just got in from imaging Mars and I'm starting to wonder if the seeing from this location is ever anything but bad. Everything 'vibrates' at high mag.

If I go portable I will eventually need a small generator for this cooler that may be finished by the next ice age.

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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Gendo
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: gazerjim]
      #2447769 - 06/08/08 06:10 PM

I like your idea for a switch Jim. I have thought about adding one switch that turns off the Peltier, but continues running both fans. I have noticed that peltiers briefly get warm on the cold side when you turn off the power. Keeping the heatsink fan running should help minimize that.

I too am a relative newbie to these peltiers, but I've learned a few things so far with the 2 models I've experimented with now, and from what info I've read online.

I'm modding my C11 very similar to how Paul Haese did his C14 since mine's an SCT. I'm going to use an M-size, panel mount, coaxial power jack by just drilling a larger hole into the back of the cell. It plugs into my switching PS perfectly. I'm still on the lookout for a similarly sized push button switch (Radio Shack had nothing I liked). I'm thinking right there in between the C11's metal handle is the perfect spot for them. Then my wires will mostly be inside the OTA, except right there at the cooler, and the mirror temp. sensor.

I'll also say that as far as I can tell the total peltier heat generated is a bit less than the wattage of the TEC (amps times volts used) plus the rated Qmax (energy transfer from cold to hot side). Peltiers will try to draw their rated amperage, so you really need a switching power supply that is at or is exceeding the peltier's rated amperage (don't forget about the few hundred milliamps for the fans).

I imagine some of the rated wattage isn't dissipated as heat, so it'd be a bit less than this. For example I've decided to use a 72w 6a peltier @ 12v. It's Qmax should be about 50w @ 12v. So it will be roughly 110-115w of total potential heat generated on the hot side. This is right at my chosen heatsink's (Swiftech MCX775-V) heat dissipation rating with a 37.5cfs 80mm fan. I'll also give the heatsink the benefit of the doubt that is has a bit more ability to dissipate heat in a cool outside environment since the heatsink isn't going to be cooped up inside a PC case like its designed for (recirculating hotter air diminishes efficiency and it was designed with that environment in mind). You'll want a bit of overhead like that. The main thing to remember if you're assembling a peltier system from parts, like I am doing, is to make certain you chose an adequate heatsink or you will have a runaway buildup of heat that will eventually lead to fire/meltdown (as the 168w 10a peltier I tested on this heatsink tried to do). I'm pushing it really close to the limit, but I think it'll work out just right. At some point the experiment has to include the mirror cell to really know how efficiently it'll suck heat out of cell (it may not meet Qmax level of efficiency which would be better), so the actual modification is my next step.

I will try to visually document stages of my mod to share here. It might still be a few weeks, depending on my free time next weekend.

One last frame of reference. Paul tells me his peltier units are about 80w @ 12v together for the C14, and they are working good judging by his Jupiter shots. I'm going to use just a bit less at 72w @ 12v and I think it should be more than adequate. This should give you guys a basis on which to choose the power of peltier(s) to use on a given SCT size.


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rumples riot
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: Gendo]
      #2448138 - 06/08/08 09:53 PM

Hey Justin, I think I said that the units are 40w each. Your single one is 72w and is the better unit to have. I did mine on the cheap, but yours is the better way of doing this.

Large heat sinks certainly are the way to go, both mine are 4" square or there abouts, they remove the heat really well. However I could increase the efficiency of the peltiers with increasing the current up to 14 volts rather than using a 12 volt rail. Also fully covering the rear back will increase the overall efficiency too. I currently have the fins exposed but have built up the foam layers to be level with the tops of the supporting fins.

--------------------
EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: Write up for peltier cooling an SCT new [Re: rumples riot]
      #2528724 - 07/19/08 05:04 PM

Aloha Paul,

Hope you're still awake,
The C 14 came in the mail a few days ago and I dismanteld the whole SCT, quite a fun project, Lots for markings and numbers and pictures for re assembeling later.
Now Paul just a fast question, What is the best place to put the mirror sensor for the temperatur ?
Best place on the mirror, center or outside edge ?
Freddy

--------------------
Freddy

Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier (Time Machine)
Celestron C 14" Peltier cooled for planetary imaging.
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED

DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D Unmoddified
Canon 40D waiting to be modded by Hutech

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Freddy WILLEMS
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