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Anonymous
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Last night I purchased a pair of Celestron Skymaster 20x80 binoculars from a local store for $250. Does anyone know if these are good binoculars for the money? I've read the reviews on CoudyNights, but they appear to be for a different model of Celestron 20x80s. I have up to a week to return them, so that's not a problem. Are Oberwerks better for the price? I'm looking to spend up to $300.
Thanks!
Edited by M. Kornblum (09/22/04 10:36 PM)
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5312
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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For $3000 USD why not buy a good binoviewer and maybe a Celestron 8" SCT?
The scope / binoviewer combo will let you change magnification easily. You can put the whole thing on a good driven mount. I have often thought about big binos but they are often too heavy and seldom will they let you change magnification. The Ring Nebula (M57) is not very interesting at 20x. But, it is a lot more interesting at 80x, or more.
The binoviewer gives you the comfort of using both eyes. You don't get 3D but how much 3D do you really get looking at infinity with a binocular?
Rich
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Sorry, I meant $300, my bad. NOTE: I've fixed the error in my post. Good thing my wife didn't read my post!
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5312
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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A few years ago I looked through the Celestron Deluxe 20x80 binocular. It had reasonably good eye relief and quite good images. I could hand hold it but you get much more out of the view if it is mounted.
Rich
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Does anyone know if these are good binoculars for the money?
That's scary. You should have asked that question well before you purchased them!! But to address your question, I have not used them personally, but I don't recall anyone saying anything bad about them.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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"That's scary", you say, nightwatch...
Maybe, I don't know. I get your drift and agree that fair play is a two-way street...
There again, thinking of sax mouthpieces, um... these have always been sold with a very flexible sale or return understanding, all over the world, for as long as I can remember.
Even though you shove 'em in yer gob.
So maybe binocs are just as personal, and equally one of those articles that ought be sold with a flexible attitude to returns, in fact with no-fault money-back return understandings between retailer and client a routine factor of the trade. Just like that.
A small re-stocking fee is regarded as acceptable by sax players, by the way.
I reckon binoculars are just as difficult to decide upon on the basis of just one session inside-of a shop...
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12569
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Assuming the 25x100 and the 20x80 Skymasters are at least similar:
I recently used a pair of Celestron 25x100s for an extended testing period. While I had some problems with the pair, that the left eyepiece would not achieve a pinpoint star focus, overall the view was very good. This may be indicating an eye lens not seated properly. Had these been a purchase, I would have sent them back as defective. However, I still achieved better results as compared to a 22x100.
I thought the exterior construction around the prism housings was a bit chintzy, not what I would have expected in a $300 binocular. The center mounting post was simply too short. I could not mount these binoculars on any tripod without the bottom of the barrels rubbing against the top of the tripod mount plate. If I were a person with a very narrow inter-pupilary distance, I would not have been able to achieve anything less than about 60mm with the currently supplied mounting post. There is no way to take that post off the binocular and replace it.
Not bad for the money. Some defects were not apparent in the first month of use. No-one can properly assess the condition or performance of a new piece of equipment in a week.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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MK,
I don't have first hand experience with the Celestron Skymaster 20X80 but based on comments from other users I think they are about average for Chinese 20X80s in that price range. You can check a few things yourself since you already have them:
1. Sharpness. Do stars focus to a sharp point without spikes or flaring?( at least in the center 1/2 of the fiele)
2. Edge distortion. Focus on a star at the center of your FOV as close to pin point as you can. Pan your bino left-right, up-down. How far off center can you move till you notice distorion. 70% is good. 80-85% is excellent. Very few binos remain sharp beyond 90%.
3. Collimation. After adjusting for the optimum IPD and setting the correct right Diopter adjustment for your eyes do you see a single star image when looking thru the bino with both eyes relaxed. If you have to strain to merge star images they are out of collimation. I'd return them right away.
You will notice some false color(purple/green fringe) with most 20X80 binos when viewing high conrtast objects in the day time(white fence or tree leaves against bright sky background). But otherwise false color should be barely noticeable.
I have been reading, researching and buying bigbinos for more than three years. IF I am buying my first pair of 20X80 binos today the Skymaster would not be my top choice. The Oberwerk 20X80 Standard would be near the top(right now). I think you will soon be able to buy better 80 mm binos for the same $250 or get the Skymaster 20X80mm for less.
adorama.com in NYC has the Celestron 20X80 Skymaster on sale for $189.95.
Erik D
PS. The Celestron Deluxe you read about on CN are not the same as the Skymaster. They are made in Japan(Vixen?) and retail for over $400. They are close cousin of the Orion Megaview 20X80s(NOT waterproof). Optically I don't think they are better than many Chinese 20X80s selling for well under $300 today.
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Assuming the 25x100 and the 20x80 Skymasters are at least similar:
......I thought the exterior construction around the prism housings was a bit chintzy, not what I would have expected in a $300 binocular. The center mounting post was simply too short. I could not mount these binoculars on any tripod without the bottom of the barrels rubbing against the top of the tripod mount plate. If I were a person with a very narrow inter-pupilary distance, I would not have been able to achieve anything less than about 60mm with the currently supplied mounting post. There is no way to take that post off the binocular and replace it......
edz
That's a good point Ed, I have mixed feelings about these binos with built-in tripod adapters. On the one hand, having a braced tripod adapter connected to the front objectives should make them more secure than a simple L adapter. The ability to slide the adapter post along the connecting rod also makes it easier to balance these long binos. However, some of them seem to be poorly executed. I have heard some complaints about not been able to tighten the adapter enough to secure the binos. This design was first seen on the Celestron 20X80 Deluxe bino going back to the late 1980s. I wouldn't think it's that difficult to copy it correctly.
I recall seeing someone selling a pair or 20X80 deluxe or 22X100 Oberwerks on Astromart a while back. That pair was offered with a tripod adapter extension. I believe the extension was made by Universal Astronomics for use with ParallelO mounts. Perhaps someone in the group can verify this.
Erik D
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12569
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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The mounting post on the Celestron 25x100 is a polished chrome bar without base plate. I found it difficult to keep it tightened against tripod mounting plate. In addition it deforms the rubber on the tripod mount plate.
The Oberwerk 22x100 has a black metal base plate that screws onto the bottom of the mount post. This makes a 1.5" bottom contact area with the tripod mounting plate. It spreads out the area of connectionto the tripod plate and it never once got loose.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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My point was that with the wealth of knowledge that has been archived here at cloudynights...and other sites I suppose, although this is the best, you maybe should have searched/asked questions here (or else where) before making the purchase and THEN asking the fundamental questions. That's all.
BUT, I think you made a good choice regardless. I hope you like them. Having some binos are better than having no binos...for the most part...
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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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The current version of the Celestron Skymaster 20x80 is evidently a different version than the Celestron Giant 20x80 that I had a few years ago, so I can't comment on the newer versions. The older version that I briefly had was a HUGE disappointment. They had quite limited eyerelief, exhibited excessive ghosting and flaring and had substantial spherical abberation out past the central 50% (or so) of the viewing area. It seemed to me, like they weren't fully multicoated on all surfaces, and weren't really as well baffled as they should've been. I expected lots more out of what then, was a $400 binocular. Keep well in mind that these comments are all regarding a previous version, which may not share very much in common with the new version.
The best way to tell if yours suit you, is just to try them for yourself. Also, keep in mind that on this forum, there are lots of folks who disagree with my assessments on several other binoculars. It's really all a subjective experience. I think I tend to be a good bit more critical than most when it comes to binoculars.
Good luck.
--------------------
18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks everyone for your helpful advice! I really, really, appreciate it!
Well, the biggest deciding factor was when Eric pointed out that the binoculars were $189 on Adorama; a LOT less than the $250 I paid. I also tried the star test that someone metioned and check-out the coma. It didn't look too bad, but the coma was noticibly greater on the right-side than the left. Another issue I had with this pair was that it had separate focusing for each eye. This wasn't a problem in of itself, but I don't wear glasses and they both had to be turned well past +3 to focus, somewhere between 4 and 5 had it been indicated. I felt that this was a defect.
I decided to promptly return them to the store which I did yesterday. When I returned them, the guy working there had a look on his face like the fact I'm returning it was going to cause his shop to go out of business. I thought he was going to cry. He didn't try to pressure me into keeping them, but you almost wanted to hand him a tissue.
Anyway, I think I'll either go with the Oberwerk 20x80s or 11x70s. I'm thinking that 11x is enough for magnification and gives me the ability to handhold combined with 70mm for some deepsky viewing.
Thanks again everyone! You've all been a lot of help!
Clear, dark skies to everyone!
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Anyway, I think I'll either go with the Oberwerk 20x80s or 11x70s. I'm thinking that 11x is enough for magnification and gives me the ability to handhold combined with 70mm for some deepsky viewing.
I use my Oberwerk 12X60 binos without a mount and would probably do OK with a 11X70 for short sessions.( I do it with my 3.6 lb 20X80 LW) However, you should be aware that the Oberwerk 70mm binos weigh 48 oz and are ~ 11 in long. You can achieve better balance by holding the binos close to the objective end. But you will not be able to tweak the focus wheel while you are holding the binos that way. You may end up mounting them anyway.... If that's the case I would recommend higher power than 11X. Few people can take advantage of 6.36mm exit pupil of 11X70 bino unless they are observing from very dark locations. I prefer higher power binos with exit pupil of 4-5mm if I am using a tripod. 15X70, 20X80 or 22/25X100 etc. These binos darken the sky background and make faint stars more visible.
ERik D
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Since we're on this discussion, I'm sure it's been asked and answered many a time, but I'll ask again: what's the "best" combination of power, objective-diameter, exit-pupil diameter, etc. for obsering handheld in a suburban setting? I know this is probably a tough question like asking "how much does a car cost?", but in your own experienced opinion what would you recommend?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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A good technique for holding large-ish binos (not sure if i read it here first) is to hold the right objective end with the left hand allowing the left objective end to rest on the back of the left wrist. The right hand holds the binos up nearer the eyepiece and can also be used to tweak the focus wheel. (Hope that makes sense.) I use this sometimes with my 15 X 70s and its good for short sessions but probably wouldn't try with anything larger.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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One thing to know is your own pupil size when it is dark or nearly dark. This will help you to determine what objective-magnification is suitable for you and what you can expect if your pupil size is not a matching the exit pupil dimensions.....which is often the case for some folks. Browse the "Best of..." section for this group and I'm sure you'll find tons of information on this subject.
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Since we're on this discussion, I'm sure it's been asked and answered many a time, but I'll ask again: what's the "best" combination of power, objective-diameter, exit-pupil diameter, etc. for obsering handheld in a suburban setting?...... "how much does a car cost?", but in your own experienced opinion what would you recommend?
MK,
Actually this is a very good question. I have found that for a given objective size and sky conditon there IS an optimum power/exit pupil combination that's most pleasing. But the combo could change from night to night depending on sky condition.
Nearly 20 years ago I was shopping for my first pair of "serious" astro bino. After looking thru evey bino catalog, astro book/ magazine I could find, I went for the Celestron 7X50 Nova.... 7.1 mm exit pupil and 10 deg FOV, what can be better?
Wrong!
Low power binos with 7mm exit pupil WILL provide the brightest image but most of what you see is huge patch of gray sky with a few stars here and there. The bright image you see in the EPs is mostly light pollution from the next town. You need higer power with smaller exit pupil to darken the background sky and make dimmer stars visible. These days I like astro binos with exit pupil between 3.5-5mm. You will still want larger objective to collect the light. Based on my (limited) experience with 10+ pair of binos that I own, my 15 year old 10X40 Celestron RPs do not collect enough light. I would like at least 50mm objectives myself. However, many feel some of the new 10X42 binos with exceptional coating can do the job. (Nikon SE, Leica, Sworovski,etc)
I say go for the highest power/biggest objective size you feel comfortable holding and keep exit pupil ~4mm. For me personally that's between a 12X50 to a 15X60. Yea, a Zeiss 15X60 B/GAT* would be very very nice.
:-))
Erik D
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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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Quote:
Since we're on this discussion, I'm sure it's been asked and answered many a time, but I'll ask again: what's the "best" combination of power, objective-diameter, exit-pupil diameter, etc. for obsering handheld in a suburban setting?
Personally, I think that a good set of 10x50 porro prisms is very difficult to substantially beat in a handheld set. Others, find that they're far more comfortable handholding 8x42s. Really, binoculars are so subjective, that there is no real one-size fits all.
--------------------
18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Personally, I think that a good set of 10x50 porro prisms is very difficult to substantially beat in a handheld set.>
Mike -- while I agree with this summary, I'm sure you won't forget our little discussion which highlighted the scarcity of what can really be considered "GOOD 10 x 50 Porro prisms"
Our friend Holger Merlitz provides us with reviews of several of the contenders , but alas , what he concludes to be just about "the best" , the Fujinon FMT SX , could well be a little too heavy for many people to enjoy using hand -held for any considerable period of time.
You and I both have first hand experience of the low/ mid -priced Swift Kestrel which Holger includes in his reviews, and I know we both agree that the "edge performance" is just TOO poor for that binocular to be considered a "serious contender" for astronomy use.
The Pentax PCF 10 x 50 still represents a pretty reasonable "lower cost" option in my opinion , but I do wish there were MORE "decent" 10 x 50 Porros to choose from in the "low to mid" priced section.
Those with deeper pockets and an aversion to individual focussing arrangement can still be thankful for the other German models Holger has reviewed , and of course the little mentioned Swarovski Habicht 10 x 50.
Failing that -- I recall our conclusion to the last "discussion" was that perhaps the "best" 10 x 50 is the Nikon 12 x 50 SE.
Regards , Kenny.
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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