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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1811
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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A few months ago, someone asked me why I bothered looking at DSO's with binoculars when I had some very fine scopes, including a huge 15" Obsession.
The obvious argument of course is convenience - until I can figure out a way to carry my 15" under my arm and be observing within seconds, the binoculars will continue to win that fight. 
But there's a more important reason - the wide field of binoculars often points out objects of interest that I would otherwise miss. I'm still following up on my earlier post about the "Eagle Cluster" - which provided a very neat view in my 18x50's. I have yet to uncover much documentation on this cluster that covers its full extent and mentions its striking shape (the center is marked as NGC 6774, but an experienced observer marked it as difficult in a 13" scope - so not sure what that was covering -- it's also marked as Ruprecht 147). This cluster is very obvious in my 18x50 binoculars, but completely "unobvious" in any conventional scope at 40-50x or more.
Last night I was out with my 18x50's - very windy and cold, so I knew I was not going to be out very long -- the perfect opportunity for a quick observing session with binoculars. The 18x50 IS's never fail to amaze me - the double cluster and Stock 2 fill the FOV for a spectacular view that is only matched by the view of the DC itself in my 4 or 5" APO's with an Ethos. I think for many people who are pondering high quality 15x70's and a p-mount or quality tripod, that these binoculars are worth looking at seriously. They have an exceptionally flat field with sharp stars to the very edge. Yes, the Image Stabilization introduces some minor artifacts, but those are nothing compared to the major artifacts caused by hand-holding! And the freedom of handholding simply can't be matched by any mounting system.
I did the usual Messier objects and was pleased to have no problem catching m74 and m76 in the good dark skies up here in N GA. The trio of M31/M32/M110 was breathtaking with the extent of M31 spanning the entire FOV.
I looked at the three clusters in Auriga (m36/37/38) which are always pleasing and moved on to M35 which provides an especially satisfying view along with the haze of NGC 2158 that appears as a fine misty spot (Interestingly, NGC 2158 has just about the same number of stars as M35, but compressed into a space a fraction of the size of M35!)
But as I was looking at M35, I started to scan around and ran into a gorgeous double-double that I had never noticed before. And of course I wouldn't have run into it with a higher power scope as it would have been too far afield. Slightly over 2° away from M35 (in the direction of Aldebaran) are two pairs of stars (HIP28510/HIP28513 and TCY1864-1010-1/TCY1864-564-1) which along with 1 Geminorum (mag 4.1) are reminiscent of Vega and the Double-Double and False-Double, although this triangle is a lot skinnier. This double-double though is clearly visible in my 18x50's and still nicely visible in my 10x42's so it's a fine binocular double-double.
I've looked at M35 many times, but never noticed this pretty pair before, and hence the post - binoculars provide the freedom to scan, to look around popular objects for other items of interest. Yes, I'm sure many people on this forum know this pair, and yes, I'm sure it has some official designation and is on some binocular viewing lists that I probably should know about, but for me, it was not known until last night and probably would have remained unknown to me had I not had a pair of binoculars to provide the freedom to just scan around...
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Image Stabilization introdues some minor artifacts...
CESD,
For those of us who don't own the 18x50mm IS, would you please explain further.
Thanks!
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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mttafire
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 1114
Loc: midwest
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I just plain hate using one eye and straining to see a fuzzy object. With binos i STILL see the same fuzzy object just smaller and less detail..ish
For me Binos is the ONLY way to view the heavens.
Wide views..2 eyes and EASE of useage.
Planets, Now THEN i would think most if not99% would rather use a scope.
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God Bless America
Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!
Edited by mttafire (12/04/07 10:51 PM)
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1811
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Quote:
Image Stabilization introduces some minor artifacts...CESD,
For those of us who don't own the 18x50mm IS, would you please explain further.
The image stabilization system on the Canons is an active system that involves rapidly shifting the "Vari-Angle Prism" to compensate for vibration/movement of the lightpath.
But this mechanism does have a tendency to introduce some very tiny artifacts - usually looking a bit like coma (i.e. a fanlike distortion on one side of a star image).
I only mention this because the image does usually look sharper with the IS turned off (provided of course the binoculars are tripod mounted). But as I indicated above, it really is a non-issue and not one that should be of any significant concern unless the distortions are excessive for some reason. If the prisms start to get loose, this effect can increase significantly or may lead to the "fibrillation failure" where the prims just shake continuously when the IS is engaged.
It has been my experience that these artifacts are worst when keeping the IS running as the binoculars' altitude angle is shifted. It seems though that that effect can be minimized by turning off the IS and immediately turning it back on again.
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2097
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I just plain hate using one eye and straining to see a fuzzy object. With binos i STILL see the same fuzzy object just smaller and less detail..ish
For me Binos is the ONLY way to view the heavens.
Wide views..2 eyes and EASE of useage.
That's the single area where there's most variation between individuals. The people who are most passionate about binoculars are the ones who really have problems viewing with one eye.
Personally, in many ways I find monocular viewing easier and more natural than binocular viewing. With binoculars, I'm always fussing with the interocular distance and focusing both eyes -- I can never seem to get it just right. I'm always aware that there are two images; they never merge perfectly. With a telescope, I just put my eye to the eyepiece, focus, and forget that I'm using optical aid.
You might say that I love binocular viewing despite the fact that it requires two eyes.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2457
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CESDewar-
A wonderful post on the pleasures of bino viewing.
Tony-
Sorry it seems to be a difficult issue for you- not being to get it just right... 'cause when you do, it's so very pleasureable!
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2097
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Tony-
Sorry it seems to be a difficult issue for you- not being to get it just right... 'cause when you do, it's so very pleasureable!
Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm exaggerating a little. Yes, I'm constantly fiddling with binoculars, but that certainly doesn't prevent me from enjoying them.
There's clearly a spectrum here between people who really abhor monocular viewing, like mttafire, and people who are literally unable to fuse the images when viewing through binoculars. People at both extremes are rare, though for obvious reasons people like mttafire have a lot higher profile in this forum than people who can't use binoculars at all!
I'm sure that a lot of the difference has a physiological basis. For instance, people who have serious problems with floaters tend to have a strong preference for binoculars.
I consider myself pretty close to average, but mildly on the monocular side of the spectrum. No doubt that's partly due to the fact that I'm a fiddler. Contrary to what I said originally, I actually fiddle with the focus on a monocular telescope a lot, too. But when there's only one thing to fiddle with, it's possible for it to seem just right for a moment. When there are three independent variables, the probability that all are going to be perfect at any given time is zero.
I value using two eyes because it helps me see more -- particularly faint nebulosity. But as far as comfort and "naturalness" are concerned, I can take it or leave it.
My wife is well over to the monocular side of the spectrum. She can fuse the images in binoculars, but for quick looks she finds it more comfortable and convenient just to close one eye.
I wonder how many of the monocular-vision haters use eyepatches? I find that makes a huge difference in my comfort when using a conventional telescope.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Harry Jacobson
super member
Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 156
Loc: 42º29'32.03"N 71º34'59.85"W
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Quote:
....The people who are most passionate about binoculars are the ones who really have problems viewing with one eye....
You might say that I love binocular viewing despite the fact that it requires two eyes.
Tony,
That's a tall generalization to base on your personal experience. One might extrapolate it by saying binocular observers go the extra mile to use both eyes for a fuller, deeper experience. I don't think that's a universal truth.
I'm happy to leave it at "personal preference".
Harry
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8x42 early Pentax DCF WP
15x50 Canon IS
20x60 Pentax PCF WP II
4.5 inch f/4 dobsonian Orion StarBlast (it's fun, no kidding!)
a few Televue eyepieces
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2097
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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I said:
Quote:
....The people who are most passionate about binoculars are the ones who really have problems viewing with one eye ...
And Harry Jacobson reproached me:
Quote:
That's a tall generalization to base on your personal experience.
He's absolutely right, of course. I misspoke. The degree of passion about binoculars is irrelevant; in fact, I sometimes get pretty passionate about binocular observing myself.
What really baffles me is the lack of passion about astronomical observing with regular, monocular telescopes.
Binoculars are truly wonderful, but when all is said and done, they're pretty specialized tools. Unsurpassed for low-power wide-field observing -- except, arguably, by the unaided eye. Nothing quite like 1X with a 180-degree field of view. And talk about convenience!
But like the unaided eye, binoculars are mighty limited. Conventional telescopes, by comparison, are almost limitlessly versatile. And the things that they can do -- and binoculars can't -- are so wonderful and varied. Seeing fine detail on planets and planetary nebulae, resolving hundreds of stars in globular clusters, seeing detail in galaxies (ones outside the Local Group, where binos do OK).
Yes, I know that truly big binos with interchangeable eyepieces can do these things too. But it's a stretch -- there's a reason that there are only a handful such instruments in the world. Monocular telescopes do a far better job of mimicking what binoculars can do than vice versa.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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I used to have trouble merging images, but when I had a problem with floaters in my dominate observing eye a few year ago, I decided to use binoculars as two eyed viewing tends to average out individual eye defects.
My right dominate eye was very dominate and I had to train my left eye to take over by using an eyepatch over the right eye during the day. Nothing wrong with the left eye physically; must be a eye-brain thing.
Anyhow, after exercising the non dominate eye, I started to be able to merge the binocular images much more easily. Now it seems natural without any strain. In fact, I prefer binocular viewing.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4421
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my left eye is much weaker than my right, so I rarely get a 3-D view, but still two eyed viewing is just so much more confortable than one.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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Harry Jacobson
super member
Reged: 09/11/07
Posts: 156
Loc: 42º29'32.03"N 71º34'59.85"W
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Quote:
...What really baffles me is the lack of passion about astronomical observing with regular, monocular telescopes....
[italics added to quote]
One might pose the question to people exclusively passionate about one instrument (binoculars) and not the other instrument (monoculars) or vice versa. I suspect most astronomy amateurs are somewhere between these extremes on the passion spectrum. Perusing equipment listed in signatures on this forum indicates a healthy presence of telescopes amongst binocular amateurs who post.
I can't say the same (a healthy presence of binoculars) of the telescope forums as I haven't checked. Then again presently I seldom scan the telescope forums. I did in the past and may likely do so in the future.
I regret selling my Ranger and my Oak Classic. I did so because the scopes were (and might still be) gathering dust. Presently I prefer low power binocular vision. Presently I view monoculars as devices for looking at the sky through a straw which presently I prefer not doing. My perspective is not wrong and it's not right.
It's just my personal preference.
Harry
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8x42 early Pentax DCF WP
15x50 Canon IS
20x60 Pentax PCF WP II
4.5 inch f/4 dobsonian Orion StarBlast (it's fun, no kidding!)
a few Televue eyepieces
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1005
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Passion will never withstand reasoned criticism, but there it is! For me, an old hand with scopes but fairly new to binos, the wonderful things a scope will do, which Tony correctly describes, are no surprise. But it surprises me how close a good-sized bino will come, and with such naturalness and simplicity! I dearly love splitting tough doubles with my scope, but when one look shows 2+ arcsec seeing, I just shut her down, grab a bino, and have fun. I used to cuss and fight it. Maybe it just depends on where you're coming from.
Ron
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2097
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
One might pose the question to people exclusively passionate about one instrument (binoculars) and not the other instrument (monoculars) or vice versa.
Agreed. I find it equally hard to sympathize with telescopic observers who have no interest in binoculars.
On the one hand, one could reasonably say that they're missing less than binocular observers who have no interest in telescopes, simply because telescopes are so versatile. But that's offset by the fact that decent binoculars are very cheap indeed (sorry BillC!) and that they're very easy to use. So per dollar spent or per brain-erg of effort invested, I find binoculars every bit as rewarding as telescopes.
Actually, I find it hard to imagine how anybody can live without binoculars, including people who have no interest at all in astronomy -- or in birding, for that matter. Seems to indicate a striking lack of curiosity about the world around them.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
Actually, I find it hard to imagine how anybody can live without binoculars, including people who have no interest at all in astronomy -- or in birding, for that matter. Seems to indicate a striking lack of curiosity about the world around them.
Such are the times that we live in. Too many people are just too busy with their mice-in-the-maze lifestyles. 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3358
Loc: NJ USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually, I find it hard to imagine how anybody can live without binoculars, including people who have no interest at all in astronomy -- or in birding, for that matter. Seems to indicate a striking lack of curiosity about the world around them.
Such are the times that we live in. Too many people are just too busy with their mice-in-the-maze lifestyles.
Some people still believe the earth is flat !!! 
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Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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 Better not go there! 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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CESD,
Thank you for your response!
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12569
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
What really baffles me is the lack of passion about astronomical observing with regular, monocular telescopes.
Umm, your kidding, right?
You should spend a week in the life of some of our telescope forum moderators. Frankly, it's relatively calm in here.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Mr. Bill
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 2759
Loc: Just passing through.....
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Quote:
Quote:
What really baffles me is the lack of passion about astronomical observing with regular, monocular telescopes.
Umm, your kidding, right?
You should spend a week in the life of some of our telescope forum moderators. Frankly, it's relatively calm in here.
edz
Yea howdy...spend a couple of hours reading threads in the Refractors forum...APO vs. Achro, why refractors are superior to obstructed systems, nitpicking over minute differences in APO performance (my interferogram is better than yours), brand partisanisms, etc etc. ad nauseam.
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10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX binos
15x70 AP binos + Paragon p-mount
Oberwerk 100BT 45 degree + Hercules fork mount
120mm f/5 Orion achromat + Moonlite focuser
140mm f/5.7 Vixen NeoAchro Petzvel refractor
150mm f/6.5 Antares achromat
150mm f/8 homemade achromat....EE Barnard MW Sweeper
8 inch newt with f/5 Swayze mirror
10 inch f/4.7 Orion newt + Paracorr
15 inch f/5 Discovery split tube
35mm Pan, 26mm Nagler, 17mm Nagler, 13mm Ethos, 8mm Ethos
Member IDA
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