Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User
rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
|
|
This is a chance to voice your opinion, because there is a healthy group of new owners of astrovideo tools, a large group of those with checkbooks nearby, and a much smaller group of experienced tool users that have seen the field develop. I consider myself a relatively new but reasonably experienced user. Since this forum is new, I thought some opinions, in addition to mine (that is stated below) might provide some interesting reading that also might help decisions. Read on if interested:
OUR BIAS. I have had 3 products...STELLA CAM EX (now owned by our local club who uses it for outreach), a super-charged MallinCAM Pro Dob (has extended integration periods), and the MallinCAM Hyper Color. We have observed with these tools about 200 times or so in public and private settings using 5 inch to 12.5 inches of aperture. My wife is an avid believer in seeing color. Both of us study and sketch objects. We are not glorifiers of tools--they are means to an end--to observe the heavens. I am a cheapskate: if the tool does not deliver for live viewing and is not easy to use and will not last, I won't buy it. That said, we love astro-video live viewing. We do not image. We use EPs about 1/5 of our observing time.
THE FUTURE. I recently provided this description to a couple friends in a couple different forms. It is my personal opinion: "The field is going to get (in my estimation) much larger. Consider these things: Current user feedback demonstrates significant technical ability (using astro video tools) for medium and small scopes (the vast majority of astronomy observers). Digital live video and the next generation chips have yet to reach the field of astro video and they will significantly improve the tool set in the next generation of tools. A second generation integrated cooler on the MallinCAM series is in final testing; preliminary reports are very good. (Efficient small and well integrated coolers act as a multiplier in ability to use integration settings effectively--especially in warm/moist conditions.) The potential of some marriage betweeen imaging and video in technical terms for the purposes of live viewing is down the pike, but will occur sometime in the future. The technical solution for real time live digital video has not yet been seen (not offered in the current set of astrovideo tools), but will be in a few years. Significant changes in the tools are occurring (like a new technology hitting the wider public) about once every 3 years or so (this is a fast rate of change).
All these things point to a competitive development atmosphere, a larger audience of users, and a wider dissemination of the tools. Astrovideo tools have costs that are currently reachable to a wide grouping of observers. Because that group likes the tools, competition and production demands are likely to keep costs relatively stable. Therefor, I expect the current "relative cost" to remain pretty constant: about two times the cost of a good Nagler.
WHAT TO DO. If it was me entering the field today, I would not wait for the "next generation" of astrovideo tools because the field is going to continue to change pretty fast. In other words, I would buy what I could today--knowing that my use of the tool would dominate my observing. I estimate getting 5 years of use out of my MallinCAM Hyper Color, although it is likely it will be upgraded before then. As said in another thread, you can do the math for your own expected observing to find that the cost per observing session is pretty low while the results are pleasing. Yes, there are big areas of development that will come, but the overall maturity of the better astrovideo cameras is currently very respectable.
OTHER BENEFITS. When we use astrovideo, our available periods of observing have doubled because light clouds, moderate haze, and sky glow do not prevent us from observing. In real terms, our schedule of observing during the 1st quarter moon period simply means we observe moon things for a little bit, then go find objects of choice at least 30 degrees away from the moon (to reduce obvious glow). From the 1st to second quarter, we observe lunar things but choose brighter DSOs that are a decent angle away from the moon. As soon as moon rise occurs more than 2 hours after sunset, then it is observing as normal: whatever we want. To press for small stuff, we still wait for really good traditionally dark and dry nights with good contrast, but that is only a fraction of our observing periods.
HELP FROM OTHERS. The field of astro video users has small group of experienced users. My initial choices to purchase the EX and then subsequent choices were heavily affected by contact with experienced users. The good news: they are out there to help. Because of the electronic world, I received help from as far as Tasmania to as close as 100 miles away. I know their names, their setups, and their opinions have greatly assisted me. This CN forum is likely to be meeting point that will include experienced users. In these days and times, that asset is part of what you "buy into" when you get one of these tools. My recommendation: make use of it.
Roland (and Linda) Crozet Va
|
midway199
super member
Reged: 04/21/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Illinois
|
|
Good stuff Roland. I particularly appreciated the point of how astro-video increases our viewing opportunities. It's amazing how much you can see with the moon up. Things you just know better than to try with the eyepiece, are now fair game with astro-video. So you can be more productive, more often.
With regards to "when" to buy, I always recommend people to jump on the bandwagon as soon as they are comfortable. Do research, ask questions, make an informed decision, and jump in. This applies to anything. The sooner you get involved "hands on" the sooner you really start learning about the product so you can develop your own opinions. Then you're really ready for the next generation!
-------------------- Matthew Sherman
StellaCam 3
Celestron NexStar 11 @ f/3.3
Starmaster 12.5"
Starmaster 18"
Tom Osypowski Equatorial Platform
Butterfield East Video Observatory
|
Scott K
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 916
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
|
|
Quote:
With regards to "when" to buy, I always recommend people to jump on the bandwagon as soon as they are comfortable. Do research, ask questions, make an informed decision, and jump in. This applies to anything. The sooner you get involved "hands on" the sooner you really start learning about the product so you can develop your own opinions. Then you're really ready for the next generation!
I think that's an important point. These devices are very likely to improve massively over the next few years. Like many electronic devices, if you wait for the next one to come out before buying, because it's just around the corner, you're likely to be waiting forever...
|
smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1426
Loc: Wilmington, NC
|
|
Quote:
With regards to "when" to buy, I always recommend people to jump on the bandwagon as soon as they are comfortable. Do research, ask questions, make an informed decision, and jump in. This applies to anything. The sooner you get involved "hands on" the sooner you really start learning about the product so you can develop your own opinions. Then you're really ready for the next generation!
I agree 100%! Before I took the plunge into this area of astronomy, I probably spent 2 months streight bugging people here and at my astronomy club with every question I could think of. Sometimes I would throw together a setup on paper and see if any one could find a flaw in my plan. I went back and forth on wether I wanted to do high quality DSO imaging with a nice mount and wide field 80ED or get down and dirty with the mallincam and be able to turn on a lot of people at the same time. Obviosly I chose the later.
The point being, that you should ask as many questions as people are willing to answer, before spending any amout of money. Make sure you know what the final result will be, and don't set yourself up for frustration and disapointment.
Neil
-------------------- Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
Edited by smokin oakum (12/13/07 01:32 PM)
|
jayscheuerle
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/16/06
Posts: 2989
Loc: S. Philadelphia, PA
|
|
Not only that, but the camera you buy will be just as good in 10 years, doing everything you bought it for. The word "obsolete" is incorrectly used and incorrectly used often when it comes to the leaps and bounds technology makes. Lots of people still using 1st generation iPods and have cell phones that don't take pictures...
-------------------- 12" Green Goblin (trusser w/Protstar secondary and OWL refigured primary)• 6" f/5 Eero2 ball-scope • 6" f/5 Frankenscope • Garrett Optical 10x50 binos • Edmund 8" yoke-mounted red-tube reflector • Edmund 6" GEQ red-tube reflector (on loan to Dad)
Gone, but with lessons learned:
Skyquest XT8 • NexSTar 8i • Eeroscope 6" f/5 ball(sacrifice was not in vain) • Vixen ED80sf • Edmund red-tube 4.25" f/10 • Edmund Astroscan
Facts are stubborn things.
|
George Methvin
sage
Reged: 01/30/06
Posts: 406
Loc: Central Texas
|
|
Very good points. Its great the way people in this field are willing to help one other. I hope to order my cam this spring or summer so while waiting I will be reading these forums to learn from you folks. Its going to be a long winter..LOL
|
rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
|
|
George...it may not so long a winter. There are some astrovideo users in clubs near you. We visit the Dallas area for med checkups in the Spring. We usually travel with a scope and astrovideo equipment. If it happens, you are welcome to join us...and even sketch an object.
Jay...10 years is a very long time for these cameras to operate. I will be surprised if mine lasts that long. That is why I figure 5 years of good use is about it. By then the changes will be pretty dramatic to go to a newer one anyway. Of course, this is a user view...I am not producer of these things. I just wring them out in the field.
Roland
|
AstroTasmania
member
Reged: 12/12/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Tasmania Australia
|
|
Hi Roland & Other Video Astro Users,
You have reminded of the first time (1988) I used a video camera at the eyepiece of 10'' Newtonian, which was aimed at the Moon. The camera was mounted on a tripod, an early Sony camcorder a V90, and a low power EP was in place. I subsequently added the Apollo landing sound track to a small clip and it fitted perfectly as the landing coincided with a slight knock (accidental) on the camera tripod.
I still use this video clip even today to illustrate how I became hooked on Video Astro.
Since 1988, I have just kept on using and experimenting with video camera on telescopes and a variety of lenses, both video 'C' mount and lenses from 35mm cameras. There has been rapid improvements in camera/chip technology during the past 20 years - and I am always excited when a new model hits the streets. I am fortunate, In my medical/forensic & scientific work, I have been able to gain access to a wide range of cameras, all of which got the 'star' test, some were kept, some returned. As a result, I have a small museum of both video & still cameras collected over the years, many of which I still use, either as a whole or their accessories.
I feel that like everything else electronic, video cameras will continue to improve & change and prices will come down. I have a Sony 1/2" colour 3-CCD scientific camera which cost $22,000 back in the 90's - and it cannot do (in many respects)what a $1500 Sony single 1/2" CCD can do today.
Imaging Source have now stepped into the arena and we will see some great products at very competitive prices, aimed squarely at the astronomy market,available in 640 x480, 1/3" & 1/2" in various options. These cameras will have a significant impact on this approach to astrophotography.
As an aside, my very first camera is a 1/2 Plate Thornton Pickard folding field camera, made out of mahogany & brass with large bellows and fitted with a RR (Rapid Rectilinear) lens and a mechanical shutter up to 1/90th second. The wooden double plate/cut film holders are a work of art. It still works and the images from it are superb. So very little is 'obsolete'. This is the same model camera that Sir Ernest Shackleton took to the Antarctic!
I look forward to contributing when I can as time permits.
Clear skies... Shevill
Regards Shevill - Tasmania 42 South
-------------------- Shevill Mathers
Southern Cross Observatory-42 South.
Observatories,Scopes & Equipment see:
http://www.apstas.com/astrotas/mathers/smathers.htm
http://picasaweb.google.com/AstroTasmania
|
ccs_hello
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 2805
|
|
Shevill, welcome to CN! Glad to meet you here .
Quote:
... Imaging Source have now stepped into the arena ...
Competition and volume will drive the price down.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
|
rolandlinda3
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
|
|
Thanks for coming in Shevill.
Other readers: when I mentioned the experienced user from Tasmania...Shevill Mathers is the guy. He has helped me on a number of occasions in astrovideo, a host of technical issues, and did it when I was so green that one could hardly tell there was any experience in me at all. If anyone reads this...I recommend finding his site, which is education-oriented and full of good stuff from down under.
When I mentioned kicking the tires for my last astrovideo decisions, I went to Jack Huerkamp's house to see what the MallinCAM Hyper Color could do...before I wrote any check. So he is another user (also a vendor) that is really helpful in practical and technical ways.
There are a few others like Jack and Shevill, which is all good news to folks considering video astro solutions. It means people know the tools well, know their limitations/strengths, know common user mistakes in their operation, are users themselves, and love to observe. Maybe it is just me, but I feel a whole lot better with a new tool when I know people that are familiar with them.
Roland
Roland
|
AstroTasmania
member
Reged: 12/12/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Tasmania Australia
|
|
Hi Roland & Other Members,
Thank you for the warm welcome. You may sense that my posts do have a 'teaching' slant, it is a way of life for me as I used to teach tissue histology methods to training med lab scientists in diagnostic & research pathology.
In my early days I had to do a university course in microscopy imaging (photo microscopy), electron microscopy and a heap of other stuff, took 6 years part time to complete. I am also a retinal angiographer - all specialist stuff. Anyway, I was ideally qualified to teach college Video production and scientific photography as a side issue. Hence the teaching approach. I love astronomy outreach and try to keep it all as simple as possible - it is easy to not understand the needs of a newcomer who basically has to learn a new language (technical terms) and so forth. My background allows me to do any type of photography, be it with film, light, X-Rays, electrons etc. so adapting these skills to astronomy is natural for me - and a lot of fun.
I make no claims to be any sort of astrophotographer - I spread myself across a wide spectrum and do whatever takes my fancy at any given time.
At the moment I am working with a fellow from Sydney Uni Physics dept. (by email) to see if we can record/observe the occultation of Jupiter by the sun on Dec 23rd. By chance, I have the only Baader Planetarium Mark IV H-alpha Coronograph in Australia & NZ, which produces a total solar eclipse when used at the prime focus of a 4" f/10 refractor.
The sun is blocked out by a special cone which is exactly the solar diameter, thus allowing one to see and image even the smallest and finest prominences. (I had to wait 18 months to get this instrument!) Picasa web albums.
We cannot find any record of the being done before, so it is new ground for us both. The last such Jupiter occultation was in 1995.
Having an observatory this far south (the furthest south in Oz) places me in an ideal spot for various odd ball events, typically the last two years doing Pluto occultations with professional astronomers from the USA, Germany, France, UK, see my Picasa albums for one such event, the pics tell a very interesting story.
Clear skies...
Shevill
-------------------- Shevill Mathers
Southern Cross Observatory-42 South.
Observatories,Scopes & Equipment see:
http://www.apstas.com/astrotas/mathers/smathers.htm
http://picasaweb.google.com/AstroTasmania
Edited by AstroTasmania (12/14/07 01:00 AM)
|
smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1426
Loc: Wilmington, NC
|
|
Welcome Shevil! It's very nice to have you with us, and I look foward to hearing about the occultation of Jupiter, and anything else you can share. By the way, nice shed you got there.
Neil
-------------------- Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
|
AstroTasmania
member
Reged: 12/12/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Tasmania Australia
|
|
Hi Smokin Oakum,
As they say "Down Under" and no doubt in other parts of the world, every bloke needs a shed!
I am in the process of building another - of original design, will do a separate post on it.
Clear skies... Shevill
-------------------- Shevill Mathers
Southern Cross Observatory-42 South.
Observatories,Scopes & Equipment see:
http://www.apstas.com/astrotas/mathers/smathers.htm
http://picasaweb.google.com/AstroTasmania
|
smokin oakum
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 1426
Loc: Wilmington, NC
|
|
I know I need a shed. This bloke is having a hard enough time finding space in my house for all my astro stuff.
Clear skies to you too! Neil
-------------------- Broadcasting live views of the night sky @
Sparkcast
C11 CGE / Hyperstar
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Orion 12" XTi f/4.9
MoonLite Focuser
Round Table Platform
12" Parralax rings
Cape Fear Astronomy Club
|
Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 5098
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
|
|
Welcome to CN Shevil, great report
-------------------- Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
M102ED S.V., ZS 80FD 10th Anniv, ZS 66SD, PST
POD XL3 http://POD.SchroederCity.com
|
RandyR
Enginerd
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 14076
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
|
|
Nice.
Shevil, I would recommend you put your "shed" / observatory pictures, and posts in the forum designated for such things...
Thanks.
-------------------- "Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
|
|
3 registered and 0 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Chris Schroeder
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 511
|
|
|
|
|
|
|