maureenford
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 756
Loc: New Paltz, NY
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Thought I would get more of a response with a new tread on the Collins 1 3.
Am considering this as alternative to Mallincam (see my post - 12/15/07 -on EQ platform for context.) Would be interested in hearing about pros and cons of this eyepiece based on your experience.
Thank you,
Maureen
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Discovery 12.5" TD on Scopebuggy
with Argo Navis and Feathertouch focuser
27mmPan, 13mm & 8mmEthos, 6mm Radian
Howie Glatter laser and Blug
Coronado PST
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Doug Culbertson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 970
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Funny you should ask about this comparison, as I was able to use both at a friend's house a couple of weeks ago. My impressions? Well, I decided that I could live without a Mallincam, but the Collins I-3 is on my must have list! You can see my impressions on my earlier thread "Mallincam-I'm a believer", but I thought that the I-3 was just one of the coolest experiences ever.
Why my preference? Well, for one thing I was looking directly at objects through an eyepiece, rather than an image on an LCD screen, which suited my particular observing preferences, as I prefer the intimacy of looking through an eyepiece. Yeah, the Mallincam gives color images as opposed to the I-3's green image, but after a bit, the brain causes the green images to go monchromatic, which more closely imitates the image one sees through an eyepiece anyway. I also thought that there was more contrast in the I-3, though the Mallincam probably went a bit deeper into most objects. I found the image of the Horsehead, for example, to show more contrast in the I-3 though the Mallincam showed more actual detail if that makes sense.
Other pros for the Collins I-3 would be that you don't have to have electrical power of any type, as the eyepiece has self contained batteries. No wires to deal with, no monitor, and no ruining night vision for anyone around you, though your night vision will be killed in your observing eye.
Cons? Well, the only one that I can think of is the price. The Collins I-3 costs roughly 2x the cost of a Mallincam and Watec-35 monitor. I could, and will someday, easily justify the cost.
This is just my  , and I am sure that you will receive some valid arguments in favor of the Mallincam.
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Doug
Midway, FL
Life's too short to drink cheap beer
Edited by Doug Culbertson (12/15/07 05:22 PM)
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Bob S.
sage
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 382
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Maureen, I am the fellow that owns the I3 and MallinCam that Doug got to look through. Although they are quite different pieces, they are frequently complementary. The I3 as Doug pointed out is less equipment to operate and you don't need tracking. You cannot however operate it in lighted areas or on bright objects like the Moon or planets. It is a "vampire" and will die in bright lights (literally). The MallinCam has wires and power to contend with and you do need tracking. To me, it is much more "full-bodied" in terms of what it can do and show. I like both of them but if I could only have one, I think I would own the MallinCam over the I3. I am glad that I do not have to decide because I very much like both of them. Bob
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Doug Culbertson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 970
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Bob, it was very cool going back and forth between M42, and the HH with the Mallincam and the I-3. Gave totally different perspectives on both objects, and I think you are right about them being complementary.
I am, however, still pretty high on the I-3, as you can tell, and it's now been two weeks since I got to look through it!
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Doug
Midway, FL
Life's too short to drink cheap beer
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maureenford
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 756
Loc: New Paltz, NY
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Thanks Bob and Doug,
I also like the experience of looking through the eyepiece vs. a monitor. Also for me, when you add in the cost of the EQ platform and the "no hassle", quick set up- PRICELESS!! - the increase in price seems worth it. Really appreciate the sharing of info. on this site.
Thanks,
Maureen
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Discovery 12.5" TD on Scopebuggy
with Argo Navis and Feathertouch focuser
27mmPan, 13mm & 8mmEthos, 6mm Radian
Howie Glatter laser and Blug
Coronado PST
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StarStuff1
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 437
Loc: East Tennessee
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You make some excellent points, Doug. On Tuesday night of this week I was with a fellow astro club member at one of our dark sky sites, elevation 2500 ft. He brought along his Orion XT10 and I brought a borrowed I3, an older unit purchased around 1999. The night was extremely clear and transparrent. M33 was faintly visible naked eye! The seeing however was poor but that mattered little as we were using the 10-in f/5 and the I3 at 50X. Using only this set up star clusters just popped. Comet Holmes was interestingly detailed. (Wish I had thought to bring along a finder chart for Comet Tuttle!)We saw dust lanes in M33. We added an ha filter to the I3 and busted nebulas. The Horsehead was tack sharp, very easy to see. MUCH better than through a 20-in dob with an H-beta filter at the WSP 15 years ago. The Flame nebula was wonderful. The California Nebula was bright, detailed and glorious. The North American and Pelican area in Cygnus were almost too detailed to describe as well as the area around Gamma Cygni.For a while we just panned through the sky just to see what was there and there was a lot.
I, too, prefer just plopping in this ep to view these objects. Taking along a computer and the other needed accessories is a turn off. I am also an astronmy educator and can see the added benefits of the Mallincam when used in that enviroment but...
As soon as I can afford one I too will get a Gen 3 image intensifier. The way technology is going something even better may come along. This should force down the prices on Gen 3 units.
Terry
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Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.
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StarStuff1
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 437
Loc: East Tennessee
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Has anyone compared the older I3s to the newer style with Thin Film Technology? It seemed the I3 cost about $1000 around a decade ago and the newest version is $3000. Quite a price hike but if the performance is enough improved...
Terry
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Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.
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Bob S.
sage
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 382
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Terry, Interesting use of the I3. Sounds like you all had a great time. In terms of the actual I3, I suspect that prices will be pretty stable to even upwardly mobile as the military is the primary consumer of the image intensifying tubes. At one point, I know that Bill Collins was having a difficult time getting them from the sole-source vendor (ITT?) due to the war. Bob
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maureenford
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 756
Loc: New Paltz, NY
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Bob,
What size primary lens do you have on your Collins? I gather from the Collins web site that each component is purchased separately - the image intensifier, the primary lens and the adapter. (So it's more than $3000) The web site is confusing because there is conflicting info on it. What is the AFOV of the 25 mm eyepiece? One page says 35 degrees and another page says 40. One page says there is a 12mm primary lens and another says it's 15mm. It also says the AFOV is 80 degrees! Obviously I'm trying to calculate the TFOV. Also have some concern about bringing the eyepiece to focus. I have a relatively low profile focuser (2") Any additional info would be appreciated.
Thank you so much,
Maureen
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Discovery 12.5" TD on Scopebuggy
with Argo Navis and Feathertouch focuser
27mmPan, 13mm & 8mmEthos, 6mm Radian
Howie Glatter laser and Blug
Coronado PST
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Bob S.
sage
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 382
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Maureen, If you call Bill Collins at CEO, he will explain the nuances of options. The I3 comes with a 30-day money back guarantee so you do not have to worry if it will work for you. I have the 25mm eyelens. I am not sure what the TFOV is? I have both the 1.25" and 2" barrels. I also have a 1.25" Hydrogen-alpha filter which acts like an OIII for our visual systems. It really enhances the red spectrum of nebula such as the Horsehead. For galaxy work, I just use the straight eyepiece. Someone was asking about the differences between the original I3 and the new thin-film version. The original ep's were about $1800 when they came out. The new version with the proper pieces is about $3200. You can sometimes find them on that other astronomy advertising site, used. There are numerous articles here on CN about the differences between the original and thin-film versions. A fellow by the name of "Half-meter" (sp?) wrote very definitive comparisons between the two and helped me as I upgraded from the original to the thin-film version. Bill Collins at CEO is very helpful and will explain anything you need to know. I suggest doing the CN search for the "I3" and then talk with Bill after you have perused the available information. BTW, we put my I3 in my friend's 42" f/4 Newtonian and looked at both the HH and M1. Got the lifetime best view of M1 with all of it filamentary structure, WOW! Bob Schilling
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jayscheuerle
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/16/06
Posts: 2989
Loc: S. Philadelphia, PA
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Quote:
Why my preference? Well, for one thing I was looking directly at objects through an eyepiece, rather than an image on an LCD screen, which suited my particular observing preferences, as I prefer the intimacy of looking through an eyepiece.
This is slightly misleading, Doug. You're not looking directly at the objects with these EP's. You're looking at a phosphor screen. None of the original photons are banging your retina.
I think it's pretty cool how two completely different technologies are letting users see more and the simplicity of this device has a lot of draw. - j
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12" Green Goblin (trusser w/Protstar secondary and OWL refigured primary)• 6" f/5 Eero2 ball-scope • 6" f/5 Frankenscope • Garrett Optical 10x50 binos • Edmund 8" yoke-mounted red-tube reflector • Edmund 6" GEQ red-tube reflector (on loan to Dad)
Gone, but with lessons learned:
Skyquest XT8 • NexSTar 8i • Eeroscope 6" f/5 ball(sacrifice was not in vain) • Vixen ED80sf • Edmund red-tube 4.25" f/10 • Edmund Astroscan
Facts are stubborn things.
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maureenford
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 756
Loc: New Paltz, NY
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Thanks for the suggestion, Bob. Will definitely call Bill Collins. One last question (maybe.) Do you use the eyepiece with the battery or is it hooked up to a power source?
Thanks for your generous help. I feel, after all the research I've done to date, that the Collins is the way for me to go. For a while I was considering the Obsession 18" UC but I have concerns about flexure and baffling not to mention the "learning curve" and all the changes that his new scope would require to my current setup. Right now I've finally gotten my 12.5 TD to exactly where I want it in terms of setup and ease of use at home and at star parties and vacation. I'd hate to start that all over again.
BTW, I first looked trough the I 3 a year and a half ago and still can't forget what a memorable a sight it was.
Thanks,
Maureen
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Discovery 12.5" TD on Scopebuggy
with Argo Navis and Feathertouch focuser
27mmPan, 13mm & 8mmEthos, 6mm Radian
Howie Glatter laser and Blug
Coronado PST
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Bob S.
sage
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 382
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Maureen, I use a lithium battery that costs about $5 and goes in the turn-on switch. It seemingly lasts forever. Bob
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StarStuff1
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 437
Loc: East Tennessee
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Last night we had a great observing session at our dark sky site at 2500 ft elevation. Some thin clouds and moisture in the air but what we saw was memorable. With the (borrowed) I3 we got nice views of the Flame Nebula, Horse Head, California Neb, wonderful regions in central Cygnus, the Ring Nebula less than 15° from the wetern horizon, the North American and Pelican Nebs in detail, M33 and much more...using a 4-in f/6 refractor! With the I3 and a 10-in f/5 newt these same objects were much more detailed.With the 13 we also observed the Bubble Nebula, Barnard's Loop, Thor's Helmet, Gum 1 and other stuff. Around 9:30 the increasing clouds, rising Moon and a curious cop caused us to call it a night.
I gotta have one of these things! Someone on this forum mentioned a short while back that he could build one for much less than they cost new. I can't now find that thread. If this person reads this and does indeed make a successful 3rd gen image intensifier eyepiece I would be most interested in the process. I have a small lathe and a few other tools.
Thanks for any info when available.
Terry
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Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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Hey Terry:
I mentioned it recently on a thread. John Paladini from my local club, Westhester Amateur Astronomers, built one which I used and was blown away. It is the same tube they use in the Collins I3.
I agree with Bob that it will help to center targets to place them on the CCD chip for the MallinCam. They are very complementary. I also like the fact that you don't need tracking to use it and that it is a self contained unit.
I plan on building one myself and will let you know the availability of the tubes. I am told they range from $600 to $1800 for the tube you choose. John mentioned that the extra parts were appx $30. The tubes aren't advertised so I will have to speak to them directly. I will update you as soon as I speak to them.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
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Bob S.
sage
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 382
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Doug, Pretty exciting stuff concerning the I3. In my chats with Bill Collins, he has mentioned that there are only two sources for tubes and ITT is the primary source. If you go to the Collin's website and read about gain issues and what are probably known as quantum efficiencies(?), the sensitivities of the various tubes does not translate directly into the efficiency of the image intensifier. It appears that one of the value added aspects of the Collin's work is that he has developed algorithms and procedures for tuning these tubes to get the most out of them for astronomical purposes. He also advised me that he sometimes has to return a tube here and there that does not meet his needs. I am not suggesting that he is the only person that can do this, but I do suspect that it is not as easy as one might think to get these little buggers to work at optimum levels. I would hate to see someone pay $1800 and have a suboptimal system. Colllin's website is probably a good jumping off place for determining if the venture is worth the aggravation. Given that the military has been sucking up so many tubes, a person off the street with no relationship with ITT or the other vendor of tubes might end up with material that is less than optimum for the interesting challenges we make to these instruments. Bob
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StarStuff1
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 437
Loc: East Tennessee
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Doug, thanks much for the update.
And Bob, thanks also for the additional info. Food for thought.
Terry
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Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.
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maureenford
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 756
Loc: New Paltz, NY
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Bob,
Took your advice and called Bill. Am awaiting a return call. Will let folks know about availability etc. After reading Terry's report am even more anxious to make the leap. This purchase will then be it for me for a while. (At least that's what the voices in my head are telling me now!)
Maureen
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Discovery 12.5" TD on Scopebuggy
with Argo Navis and Feathertouch focuser
27mmPan, 13mm & 8mmEthos, 6mm Radian
Howie Glatter laser and Blug
Coronado PST
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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Good points Bob. I respect the time, research and knowledge that goes into fabricating these products and I am sure Bob Collins puts out a highly tuned product and buyers will get the benefit of his expertise.
I would like to get my hands on a Collins I3 to do a side by side comparison. The homebuilt one John made showed images just as they are advertised on the Collins website and it cost him $730 total. I am curious to compare the scintillation. It had a lower resolution than the newer tubes but I used it myself and it was pretty amazing, and absolutely worth the price of admission. I honestly don't know what is involved in building it, I haven't done it yet. I will ask him about tuning the tube and algorithms, etc.
Apparently the new tubes have a higher resolution and a 10,000 hour life. The general condition tubes have some mileage on them but will have enough life left for more than we are interested in. That accounts for the differences in the prices for what they offer. They also offer a 1 year warranty for used tubes and a 2 year warranty for new tubes.
I would be more than thrilled to have Johns homebuilt unit and he's offered to help me build one for myself so we'll see how I make out. The tube came from "the other vendor".
I'm not suggesting this project to anyone as I have a limited knowledge of what's involved. All I can say is that I've seen first hand, and used, a homebuilt unit which was truly awesome. I am excited to build one for myself and will let you know how I do. I will divulge the source once I have received my tube! I know the tubes are hard to come by and the prices vary accordingly.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
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StarStuff1
sage
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 437
Loc: East Tennessee
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Still trying to get an idea on the limits of the I3. Tonight is clear,so far. Clouds, rain and snow predicted around midnight. I've been out a couple of times tonight in my moderately light polluted side yard . Earlier today I took an old UO 80mm f/4 refractor OTA and re-built it with a shorter tube to allow the I3 and a .6 focal reducer combination to come to focus. The result was a 64mm f/3 optical system. The 64mm diameter is because of the vignetting caused by the 1 1/4-in focuser. A 9nm ha filter was threaded into the focal reducer. This scope is not particularly sharp as I'm pretty sure it has only a binocular objective. Anyway, it was neat earlier this evening to scan the skies with approx 8X and nearly 5° tfov.
The instrument was hand held like a spyglass. It was nice seeing the entire North Ameican Nebula/Pelican complex easily fitting into the smallish fov of the I3 ep. Again the nebulosity around Sadr in Cygnus was interesting. MANY faint stars were visible in every area I looked.
I took the focal reducer out and used the the instrument as a 64mm f/5 at 13X. With the ha filter I could easily see the entire entire California Nebula, traces of Barnard's Loop, the notch of the Horsehead, the Flame and of course M42.
What really surprised me was a nebulosity in Cassiopeia. I checked my S&T Pocket Star Atlas. It seems that the PacMan nebula NGC 281 near Schedar shines a lot in the ha region. Surprisingly easy to see with the I3 and such a small optic. Amazing.
Terry
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Two dozen eyepieces, a dozen binoculars, a half dozen refractors, two reflectors and a homemade Image Intensifier Eyepiece (IIE). All products subject to change by the owner at any time.
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