Steve Napier
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/10/04
Posts: 1559
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I never had the chance to OBSERVE with these but,I did have a chance to have a quick look through them about 15years ago.
Im not sure the name that was given to them,it might have been "Dodekarem"? Carl Zeiss Jena made 8x50 and 12x50 in the series,they were different designs to the 10x50 Dekarems that I own.
They were the Finest pair of 12x50 Binoculars Ive ever had the pleasure to use.
If any ever come up for sale on the net I urge anyone to give strong consideration to possibly the finest pair of 12x50 ever made.
I dont think these were made in great numbers,I would have bought a pair but I had recently just bought my other two CZJ models.
Its a shame that wall had to come down isnt it  .
Steve.
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Claudio
sage
Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
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Hello Steve,
The Dodecarem (not with “k”) and the Octarem were of the CZ Jena’s high end line, the Dekarem was of the normal (but still good) line. There were also different versions, the 8x50B Super and the 12x50B Spezial. Later also high end 7x50, 8x56, 10x50 and 15x60 were produced. Some versions are still available in the Docter line. In the following sites You can find some authoritative information:
http://binofan.home.att.net/german.htm
http://de.geocities.com/holger_merlitz/
Also the next one is useful:
http://www.roskamoptics.nl/
I have found some comments on the Octarem I wrote to friends, maybe they can be of some interest:
“…maybe the Octarem doesn't amaze because seems to have less contrast than 42 mm., which doesn’t mean it has less saturated colours. Contrast is a term used by binocular fans in a not unambiguous way, as well as brightness and depth of view. Personally I find that the centre of view of this binocular is still sharper than any (Venturer 8x42 included) roof prism produced up to now. Edges are second only to the very best roofs. Chromatic aberration on and off axis (I am schizophrenic about it) is much better than in roofs (…).”
“…About fragility in porro prisms: this is true in many porro binoculars, but I know of roof binoculars with the same problem. I did not demount completely any binocular of the Nobilem series, so I cannot say how fragile they are. When I studied its admirable oculars dust-proofing system, I observed that prisms in the Octarem are cemented together, probably in order to get more light transmission and maybe to help the prism group to maintain the 90º position and the alignment (anyway I am not sure about it). I prefer the (less elegant) rubber armoured version because it protects a bit more the eccentric adjustment of the objectives, that I find is too much exposed to shocks (…).”
“…comparing them for a short time, I found the Octarem is a bit sharper at the centre and maybe a bit less sharp at the edge than the Leica 8x50 and the Swarovski 8x50, but as you know the field of view is wider in the CZJ glass. All the binoculars were giving a "quiet" view, Swarovski a bit more than the others, maybe helped in this by a slight, in my opinion not objectionable warmer image. I didn't find a difference that justified a change of binocular, so my old Octarem remained my favourite binocular for work (ornithological guiding) (…).”
All my comments on binoculars concern their daylight use.
Regards
Claudio
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Steve Napier
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/10/04
Posts: 1559
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Thankyou Claudio,
The Nobilem series. Now the name comes back to me,and you say that there are some models STILL available? If this is the case I wil try to hunt a pair of 12x50 down,they were fantastic,much better than anything if ever seen.
Thanks Claudio and many thanks for the links.
Cheers
Steve.
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Claudio
sage
Reged: 07/26/04
Posts: 226
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I fear binoculars are no longer sold from Docter ( http://www.docteroptics.com/ ) but some on-line shops seem to have still available samples, especially in Germany and Holland. One of these:
http://www.camera-exchange.de
Good information can be found at the Abrahams forum list 150-200:
http://home.europa.com/~telscope/listp150.txt
As the list is very long, look for with keywords nobilem, super, spezial, octarem etc, anyway most of the information is between #153 and #187.
A thread (in German) about Docter 8x50 and other binocs is
http://forum.astronomie.de/phpapps/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Fernglaeser&Number=164699&page=17&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
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holger_merlitz
sage
Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 282
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Hello Claudio,
they are still sold at Docter. This is the proper US-link:
http://www.docteropticsusa.com/binoculars.php
The German page may contain more models, but it should be no problem to ship them around:
http://www.docter-germany.com/
The original 8x50 and 12x50 are not produced any more, instead there are the 7x50, 8x56, 10x50 and 15x60. Of these, I have once tested the 10x50 which is described on my web page you have already cited above:
http://de.geocities.com/holger_merlitz/fujinon10x50.html
With regards,
Holger
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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At less than 700 EURO , those 15 x 60 Docter Nobilems would appear to be worthy of consideration as a dual -purpose terrestrial / occasional astro bino.
I wonder if anyone has tested this model ?
I have a special fascination with 15x -16x binoculars with objectives SMALLER than 70mm , so it would be very interesting for me to read comparitive reviews of the following binoculars.
1. Zeiss BGA T 15 x 60
2. Swarovski 15 x 56 SLC
3. Minox 15 x 58 ED
4. Canon 15 x 50 IS
5. Optolyth Royal 15 x 63
6. Docter Nobilem 15 x 60
7. Oberwerk 15 x 60
8. Orion Mini -Giant 15 x 63
9. Pentax PCF 16 x 50
10. Stellarvue 15 x 63
11. Fujinon 15 x 60
Of course there is more chance of Adolph Hitler winning a post -humous Nobel Peace Prize than finding any individual who happens to own all these models , but to quote the great Brian Wilson , "Wouldn't it be nice" if CN could get their hands on different collections of models such as this for the purpose of several "experienced members" taking turns at comparing them , then each posting THEIR own impressions at a later , pre - arranged time.
The binos could then be re -sold to CN members.
I suspect this is another case of "Dream on , Kenny" !
Clear skies -- Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
At less than 700 EURO , those 15 x 60 Docter Nobilems would appear to be worthy of consideration as a dual -purpose terrestrial / occasional astro bino.
I wonder if anyone has tested this model ?
Kenny, several years ago (5 or 6, maybe) I did some casual daylight observing with these and was most impressed, considering the price-point. If still available certainly worth a serious look.
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Steve Napier
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/10/04
Posts: 1559
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I had a quick look through a pair of 12x50 Nobilem years ago and they were the dogs bo******! I think thats the technical term?
Steve.
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Steve,
Do you mean they were the Terrier's Test***** ?
Or were they the Spaniel's Scro*** ?
Regards , Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Steve Napier
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/10/04
Posts: 1559
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No Kenny,
They were the Greyhounds Gonnards!
Dont worry all you Americans,Its a British thing.
Steve.
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Craig Simmons
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 1502
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Or could they be the Labrador's Lab**?
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Craig Simmons
Oberwerk 8x56, 20x90
Nikon Action IV 10x50
Barska 15x70
Galileo 20x60
Stellarvue 15x63, 20x85
Orion XT10 pre-Classic
Antares 10
Stellarvue AT1010
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12509
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Creeping closer to Zs zap.
but so far I'm still smilin'
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I note that a Docter web site from Germany shows the recently mentioned 15 x 60 Nobilem model in what I would describe as the colour of "County Cream" , which looks very strange for a binocular -- to put it politely !
Can anyone tell me , is this model also available in any other colours -- such as black or grey ?
Regards , Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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John F
sage
Reged: 02/16/04
Posts: 308
Loc: Washington State
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I had a pair of 12 x 50Bs for about 10 years. They were sold in the US under the name Aus Jena Nobilems. At the time they first came out they were the only high power/wide field/long eye relief binoculars made. There was a time (before the 12 x 50 Nikon SEs came out) that I would not have been willing to sell them for double the $535 price I paid for them back in 1992.
They have a few drawbacks. At almost 40 ounces they're kind of heavy (but manageable)and ergonomically they're not the most comfortable to hold. The Nikon 12 x 50 SEs were a big advance over them with respect having a much lighter weight and a more ergonomic design for hand holding. However, the Nobilems had a wider true/apparent field and I thought that some objects looked a little better in them than they did in the Nikon 12 x 50 SEs. Currently, I have a pair of 12 x 50 Leica Ultravids and they have an even wider true/apparent field than the Nobilems and overall, I like them the best of these three outstanding 12 x 50 binoculars.
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Leica 7x42 Ultravid
Nikon 7x50 Prostar
Swarovski 8.5x42 EL
Nikon 10x70 Astroluxe
Leica 12x50 Ultravid
Zeiss 15x60 B/GAT
Takahashi 22x60 Astronomer
NP-127 w/Bino Vue
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John F
sage
Reged: 02/16/04
Posts: 308
Loc: Washington State
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Kenny,
I had a pair of the 15 x 60B Nobilems for many years. Mine were made by the old CJZ firm before they were taken over by Docter. If the current Docter models are in the same league as the earlier CZJ Nobilems then you are correct in assuming that they'd make an outstanding dual astro/terrestrial binocular. For terrestrial observing they're were a little lighter in weight than the West German 15 x 60s and they could focus much closer. While they are somewhat hand hold-able if you are laying in a lawn chair or are bracing your elbows against say the roof of a car, like all high power binoculars they work much better on a mount.
Optically I liked them better than every other high power/large aperture binoculars I've tried with the exception of the West German 15 x 60 B/GAT. And the difference between those two models is not all that great. Overall, I think the 15 x 60 Nobilems are an excellent value for the money.
Another Nobilem model I once owned was the 8 x 50. They were outstanding in some respect but they were not as sharp towards the edge as the 12 x 50s and 15 x 60s and at least the model I had had some problems with internal reflections (whereas the 12 x 50s and 15 x 60s did not) so I was never really all that happy with them (and when the 8.5 x 42 ELs came out I quickly got a pair to replace the 8 x 50s).
John Finnan
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Leica 7x42 Ultravid
Nikon 7x50 Prostar
Swarovski 8.5x42 EL
Nikon 10x70 Astroluxe
Leica 12x50 Ultravid
Zeiss 15x60 B/GAT
Takahashi 22x60 Astronomer
NP-127 w/Bino Vue
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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John,
As I was reading your posts , certain snippets of information seemed to ring bells - -
-- and now I've realised why !
WELCOME to Cloudy Nights , John !
You do indeed not only have a most enviable personal collection of binoculars , but from the sound of things , also have an awesome "back catalogue" of instruments.
More importantly , you have a willingness to share your opinions on past and present purchases in a most honest way , which makes for very valuable and informative reading.
I was just wondering John -- how would compare the Docter Nobilem 15 x 60s you once had with the Swarovski 15 x 56 SLC
and that , in turn with the Zeiss West 15 x 60 BGA T ?
I hope I'm correct here in recalling that you also own , or once owned , the Swarovski 15 x 56 ?
Clear skies John -- nice to have you "on board"
Regards , Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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By the way , David and John ,
Were the 15 x 60 Nobilems you've both had experience with of that "county cream" colour -- or in black ?
Thanks in advance -- Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Kenny, I remember them (pushing the brain, here) as black, or a very dark blue.
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John F
sage
Reged: 02/16/04
Posts: 308
Loc: Washington State
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Kenny,
Thank you for your welcome and kind words. I have not got involved with the Cloudy Nights forums in the past because I did not want post items here in addition to other binocular forums that I have participated in. In any event, after reading the recent Cloudy Night threads concerning the CZJ 12 x 50 Nobilem and high power Aspectem binoculars I decided to add a few comments on those binoculars because I'm one of the few astronomers in the US who has had much experience using them.
With regard to your question concerning the 15 x 56 Swarovskis, no I have neither owned or even tried a pair. However, I have read several very favorable reviews of them. Also, based on my own experience with some of the other binoculars in the Swarovski line I'm fairly confident that their 15 x 56s are among the very best high power binoculars that are currently available.
Perhaps you associate me with the 15 x 56s because I particapated in a discussion about them on the Swarovski forum over on Astromart. The fellow I was discussing them with, Kimball Corson, does have a pair and he told me (in a private correspondence) that he did have an opportunity once to compare them to the Zeiss 15 x 60 B/GATs and that he felt that the latter had a little better contrast and were superior overall (optically). On the other hand, the 15 x 56's only weigh 47 ounces and have a much more ergonomically friendly design that the 15 x 60s do. So for those reasons he preferred the Swarovski because it was more hand hold-able and hence useable to him.
I don't doubt that he is right about that but when it comes to 15x and higher power binoculars I'm only going to using them with a mount, and if I'm going to using a mount, then the slightly better performance I get with the 15 x 60s is more important to me than lighter weight and ergonomic advantages of the 15 x 56s.
I've also been using my new 12 x 50 Ultravids on a mount a lot this year amd even they perform way way better when mounted. Nevertheless, I still use them in hand hold-able mode quite a bit. However,12x and/or 40 ounces is about the limit what I'm willing to hand hold. And for lengthy observing with a hand hold-able binocular my favorate power is 8x or 8.5x.
John
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Leica 7x42 Ultravid
Nikon 7x50 Prostar
Swarovski 8.5x42 EL
Nikon 10x70 Astroluxe
Leica 12x50 Ultravid
Zeiss 15x60 B/GAT
Takahashi 22x60 Astronomer
NP-127 w/Bino Vue
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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John,
Thanks for reminding me about that discussion with Kimbell.
I'm sorry my memory failed me on that one !
John , if you read this first , I have sent you a Private message.
Regards , Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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