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Undermidnight
Pounder of Brass
   
Reged: 05/25/04
Posts: 2421
Loc: Hilliard, Ohio
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Quote:
So it's you, Tony and me some warm night?
Got that 12" ballscope finished yet?
I need to make some final tweaks to the scope... stuff we spoke about before. That should be done this week. I think I am done with the mirror. I tested it at 1/7th wave, but some star testing shows that it is over corrected within a 1/4 wave. Still need to get a better night (which have become few and far between) to star test it. This is probably the last big mirror I ever do. I enjoy making scopes more.
Jason
-------------------- WO Megrez 90 on EZTouch Mount
WO Zenithstar 66 on Microstar Mount
PST
8" F/4.2 Ball Scope, "Marilyn"
12.5" F/4.3 Ultralight, "Ada II"
11x70 Oberwerks
6" F/6 Polishing
Pans, Orthos, and Naglers
"We who cut mere stones, must always be envisioning cathedrals." - The Quarry Workers Creed
http://www.undermidnight.com
http://undermidnight.blogspot.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 16347
Loc: Kuiper Belt
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Spectacular scopes Ron. You are truly an artist and a craftsman.
I love the old brass classics like the restored Merz. They make me think of gentlemen in tophats with round wire-rimmed glasses peering at the moon while smoking cigars and discussing the ramifications of steam locomotion.
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, Tektites, Fossils, Minerals, Crystals, & Trinitite.
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JWW
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 12/12/05
Posts: 1107
Loc: Arizona or Mexico hard to tell
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Happy New Year,
Incredible work Ron! I really love the Fauth and Merz.
Cheers, -JWW:
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Veridian
sage
   
Reged: 07/17/06
Posts: 478
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Hi Ron,
Thank you for putting up these close in views for us to see. To me,, this is the pinnacle of amateur astronomy,, in other words,, the pure love of it. It took me awhile to come up with the right adjective here. Would it be paragon, peak,, high point,, but then I looked up pinnacle.
As for the detail and finish,, "speechless", is all I can say! Mark J.D.
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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I once heard Penn State's Joe Paterno say that such accolades were like poison ... only dangerous if swallowed. 
I've always felt that ATM efforts should be INclusive, rather than EXclusive. What I mean by that is that one should always point out to others how they can adopt ideas and techniques, rather than making it seem that one needs special skills and/or exotic tools to do interesting work.
Granted, I've been building telescopes for a long time, but I'm not one of those ATMs with a well-equipped shop or access to a lot of fancy power tools. (I do have a simple drill press and a cheap router table, but that's about it for tools you don't hold in your hands.
I try to start with good materials (e.g., Baltic or Finnish birch) and square corners. The former I get at a local Woodcraft store and the latter I usually achieve by begging or borrowing a little time on friends' table or band saws.
After that, it's mostly attention to detail. People sometimes think I'm some sort of master craftsman because of the fancy inlays, but you buy the stuff in strips, glue it into place and sand and finish it along with the rest of the wood.
I try to think of interesting ways to solve problems, rather than slavishly following what others have done, and I try to make each component as good as it can be (e.g., stainless steel screws running in threaded brass inserts rather than regular screws in zinc-plated T-nuts). As a result, the components in my scopes work as well after two decades as they did at first light.
I don't do a lot of math, computing moment arms, and all that when I build (other than placement of optical components). I simply build what I think will work and adjust it on the back end to make it right.
I'm sometimes a bit dismayed when I read posts online asking for the "right" way to do this or that, as if there were only one way to do it.
I'm a particular fan of Dave Kriege's and Richard Berry's book THE DOBSONIAN TELESCOPE, but not as a step-by-step guide for building a particular telescope. Rather, like Ingalls' AMATEUR TELESCOPE MAKING books, one should read the material and learn how telescopes are made, rather than how to make one. Once a person truly understands what a flotation cell does, why a diagonal should be offset, or why just any combination of plywood, Teflon and laminate won't work well, he/she is freed to come up with ways of solving telescope construction problems and having a great time building a scope that is different from those that went before, even if only in one or two details.
There are no "right" answers ... no rules other than those dictated by basic physics, which one can often intuit if the actual mechanics are unknown.
I'm a fan of people "rolling their own" when it comes to telescope making. Nothing is less interesting than the next Obsession-clone.
People often speak of Dave Kriege as some sort of genius telescope maker who should be emulated. Well, that's partially true, but it's not necessarily his telescopes that should be emulated ... it's Dave himself and the way he got to the first Obsession.
Back in the late 1980s he showed up at Astrofest in Illinois, examined in detail the telescopes that were there (including my own 17.5"), made mental notes, and then went home.
Did he show up the next year with copies of what he saw the year before? Nope. In the intervening months he thought about what a telescope really needed to be (and not be), did a lot of materials testing, tried some new design ideas, pulled it all together, and came up with something entirely new. In the process, he kicked the Dobsonian design into its third generation and set the trend for the next two or three decades. Not bad for a Wisconsin dentist.
So, go forth and find new ways to make these 400-year old instruments work better ... and have some fun in the process.
Sure, you can (and should) take ideas from others (we all do), but don't just copy. Keep Albert Ingalls' comment in mind.
"It is not ... unsportsmanlike to study closely the details of telescopes made by others and to 'lift' this or that feature from them, provided one improves these features."
Peace, and Happy New Year.
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8305
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Great thread Ron. I have enjoyed your scopes for years, watching you procude new ones now and again. Great work for sure.
I can't agree with you any more then when you say, you need to try to make your scopes a bit better in some way then the last, or from the one you,,*Lifted* an idea from... 
In building my 6"f/15, we did just that, and more. Incorporating features that are still ahead of their time, was not the aim, but to make the experience all that better. *fixing* what was/is known to be *drawbacks* in the refractor design, we produced a scope(well my father), that is as easy to use as is to look at.
Glad to see, you're restoring great older scopes too.
Thanks for the look into your astro world.
Rob
-------------------- www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.
www.vimeo.com/6014031
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Wes James
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 3449
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Ron- Would like to add my compliments on your philosophy of building... while I would love to have a machine shop, my power tools are somewhat limited in number, so I make do with what I have. I end up having to use files on aluminum more than someone else might who has a mill, but a table disc sander works great for cleaning up the edges that a saber saw with good blades leaves in 1/4" thick (or more) aluminum. If you understand what needs to be done, frequently there are more than one way to accomplish a goal. Taking each piece as a project in itself- and not being in a hurry lends itself to worthy projects when finally completed. I myself am just finishing up a 4.25" Schief, and it has been a fun challenge to build over the course of about 9 months. Rushing leads to shoddy worksmanship; your telescopes, on the other hand, stand as an example of what can be done with skilled hands and simple tools.  Wes
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nightstalker
sage
Reged: 03/30/07
Posts: 251
Loc: Great South Land
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great looking scopes ron every one of them
having just finished a 12" truss I can relate a lot to what you mention,I have no benched tools as such ,and spent many a weekend sitting on a concrete slab with a cordless drill or hand sanding.I always meant to get a copy of
THE DOBSONIAN TELECOPE but never got round to it .Google images showed me enough ,not to openly copy something somone else had done (not alaways anyway )but to see how somone did something ,try to understand why and how..and could you improve it to work for you a little better ?
I'd have to admit I replaced a good idea with a not quite so good one at times as well ,but its part of the process
thanks for shareing
--------------------
28pretoria22t414xw8.5xf
12" truss dob and numerous missplaced accesories...graham
Edited by nightstalker (12/31/07 05:08 PM)
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Crab
super member
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 111
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Quote:
My home observing is primarily Questar-based, utilizing an aluminum pier that can be removed for mowing and replaced without losing polar alignment.
This is interesting. I am curious as to how you went about making the pier foundation. My problem is figuring out how to make the foundation so it will lay flush with the ground to prevent tripping while remaining free of holes that collect water. Best I could come up with is countersunk gasketed bolts that when removed can then serve as bolts for attaching the pier. The bottom side of the pier would have spacers or a stack of glued washers to fill the countersink with this arrangement. The threaded holes in the foundation would be octagonal threaded pieces sold for joining threaded rod. Threaded rod epoxied halfway into these unions can serve the function of rebar in those positions. The other end of the union has a waxed wood dowel drilled with a bolt. The face of the dowel can be greased for easy removal after the pour. The dowel and bolt allows for a clean face for the gasketed bolt as well as an attachment point for a leveling arrangement during the pour.
I am currently leaning towards a pad of woodchip on landscape cloth surrounding a removable gravity secured sundial over the foundation to get around the problem. The foundation would have bolt ends sticking up from the cement in that arrangement. Many thanks for any suggestions.
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
My home observing is primarily Questar-based, utilizing an aluminum pier that can be removed for mowing and replaced without losing polar alignment.
This is interesting. I am curious as to how you went about making the pier foundation. ... Many thanks for any suggestions.
I embedded three aluminum pads with center rods into the ground. They are flush with the ground and have stainless indexing pins that allow me to lift the aluminum pier, mow, and replace the pier in perfect alignment. Images to follow.
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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One pad with two stop points ...
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Second pad with one stop point ...
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Third pad with no stop points ...
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Pier in place ...
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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I only embedded the thread rod about a foot into the ground. You could obviously do more.
Polar alignment is fine for using setting circles for the evening (pretty much a necessity in my light-polluted back yard).
The pier is aluminum, stainless and brass, and sits outside 24 / 7 / 365 with no ill effects. I simply grab the scope and accessory case and can be observing in a couple of minutes after only one trip.
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Remote observbing with the Questar uses a Tri-Stand. It's much more portable than the aluminum pier.
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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Crab
super member
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 111
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Thanks for the description. I like the 2-1-0 indexing arrangement. Your backyard hardware is simply beautiful.
I can read a newspaper in parts of my backyard at night. The decorative street lamps send more light into the sky than the ground.
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chipnwho
super member
Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 154
Loc: Antioch, California USA
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Hi Ron, Being an artist as well as a machinst, I love the craftsmanship displayed in your scopes. A few years back I decided that the time was right to finally go for it and build my first scope. Since I'm in my late 50's I didn't have the time (or patience) to start small so I purchased Kriege & Berry's book and using their ideas as a guideline, built an 18" that has performed beautifully. Like I said, since I wasn't inclined to do a lot of experimentation, I ended up with a basic Obsession clone but as you alluded to, the artistic and creative part of me is bored with it. That, coupled with the fact that it's weight makes transportation a chore and the set-up and breakdown time is cumbersome especially when you're cold and tired, has gotten me inspired to salvage what I can from it, remove a lot of wood and make some major modifications.
I've always been intrigued by your idea of using two larger struts with a flat focuser panel instead of the eight strut truss design. But I'm a stickler for holding collimation from zenith to horizon. I know you've probably covered this in the past, but if I use 2" aluminum poles that are well supported at both ends and keep the weight at the focuser end to a minimum, should I feel confident that my flexure will be tolerable? I know you can't give me a definitive answer not knowing the details of my design and my machining skills, but have you and others that have used your scopes had any complaints with the two strut design as far as collimation is concerned?
Dale
-------------------- Dale Burkhardt
18" homebrew dob with f/4.5 Torus-OMI mirror
Argo/Navis, ServoCAT
100mm Orion SVP w/Moonlite focuser
Customized SVP mount w/Sky Commander
"No matter where you go, there you are."
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RRavneberg
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Dale,
The largest version I've seen is a 15", which had a bit of flexture. Obviously, there are things one could do re. cross-bracing to reduce or eliminate any flexture, but then the whole thing starts getting complicated.
Putting the truss tubes on the side of the scope lets them reinforce each other, whereas the 45-degree orientation that I used on my 10" f/5, while more convenient, requires better support of the tubes.
Were I going for an 18" I'd probably look to something more like Albert Highe's "Ultralight" scopes.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~ahighe/12_5ultra.html
There's an 18" version of his design at:
http://plettstone.com/products.htm
Let me know what you think.
-------------------- Ron Ravneberg
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chipnwho
super member
Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 154
Loc: Antioch, California USA
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Ron,
I contacted Albert a few years back and we discussed this very topic. Even with his design he said to expect a small amount of flexure. I purchased my altitude bearings from Dave Kriege and since they're aluminum I think I can fabricate a rather simple extension strut that would attach to the bearing and help brace the lower tube further up toward the focuser panel. I could also go for thicker walled tubing but then I run into a weight trade-off. I may just have to bite the bullet and start experimenting.
-------------------- Dale Burkhardt
18" homebrew dob with f/4.5 Torus-OMI mirror
Argo/Navis, ServoCAT
100mm Orion SVP w/Moonlite focuser
Customized SVP mount w/Sky Commander
"No matter where you go, there you are."
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