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MondatlasMart
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 25
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Hello all,
Has anybody here tried to find really thin lunar crescents?
This is of some importance in several cultures with a moon-based calendar. I wonder how optimized the usual attempts actually are.
I would like to discuss techniques for such attempts, issues such as optics, filters, baffles, goto-mounts, day-light observing and similar.
What techniques would be used for convential attempts, with the sun below the horizon? I would assume a good-quality scope (contrast optimized) with a goto-mount and medium level magnification to be appropriate. And of course the best possible location, the higher the better.
Could attempts during daylight, which have proven successful for imaging thin crescents, open new windows of opportunity? Of course, the light of the sun would have to be carefully dealt with, to prevent serious eye injuries.
Anybody interested in this?
Best regards, Martin
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Centaur
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/12/04
Posts: 1537
Loc: Chicago
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Welcome to the discussion group, Martin.
Every month I initiate a New Moon spotting thread in this forum and include a preview diagram of the western sky. It’s something of a contest, although not official. Photos are encouraged. For safety reasons, it’s been restricted to post-sunset sightings. I’ll start the next such thread late during the first week of February. The timing of the February conjunction and the celestial alignment will present a fine opportunity for North Americans to spot a really young Moon. Below is a photo I took from Arlington Heights, Illinois on 2007 MAR 19. The New Moon aged 21:45 hrs was my personal best. Here’s a link to the January New Moon thread in this forum: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2100850/page/1/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
-------------------- For astronomical graphics, including
monthly wallpaper calendar, visit:
www.CurtRenz.com/astronomical
Curt Renz - "Centaur"
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MondatlasMart
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 25
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Hello Curt,
There are some beautiful images in your threads, very inspiring!
Currently, i am looking deeply into day-time observation as this probably is the most promising way to see the thinnest possible crescents and simply gives a far longer window of opportunity, compared with the short periods of twilight visibility.
Day-time observation works very well for imaging thin crescents and has shown the danjon "limit" to be no true limit at all.
Of course, safety is a important issue, just as in solar-imaging or most other human endeavors. With some extra thought and carefull preparation this kind of observation can be done safely enough.
I hope i can report/discuss some results here soon. I would like to hear from other people with similar interests.
Here is a page i created recently to explain the approach i used for imaging: Imaging extreme crescents
Best regards, Martin
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Jim Mosher
sage
   
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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Martin,
Congratulations on winning First Place in Interstellarum magazine's crescent Moon contest!
Your demonstration that by looking in the infrared it is possible to extract the lunar crescent from the daytime sky background when the Moon's center is as little as 4.7° from the Sun's center is most impressive. Your image, and your explanation of how it was made would make an interesting topic for the Lunar Photo of the Day.
Although the Moon was 2 hr 41 min past New in the first of your pictures, it seems obvious that using this technique, in some months you could photograph the crescent at "zero" age; for in some months, as viewed from some parts of the world, the Moon's elongation from the Sun is more than 4.7° at that moment. It would seem to require only finding a location where the Moon and Sun are well up in a sky as clear or clearer than the one you experienced. But to me, photographing the Moon at "zero" age is of much less interest than simply showing what it looks like when seen at positions close to the Sun at a variety of librations and illuminated at a variety of angles, regardless of age. And that, according to your results, could be done any month as the Moon passes near the Sun, provided only it is high enough in very clear sky and one has the proper equipment and filters.
One suggestion I might make is that on your website you make it more clear what the scale and orientation of your images are. This would make it possible to judge which parts of the Moon are creating the brightness variations you see along the limb. But the information you present seems conflicting. The Guide 8.0 predictions on your 15 June 2007 page suggest that the North Celestial Pole was to the upper left and that the midpoint of the lunar crescent should have been found about 5° below the horizontal. Yet the observations seem closer to what one would expect based on the photo of your setup that shows an equatorial mount with one axis of the camera aligned to the polar direction.
Such evidence as there is suggests that the brighter areas in thin lunar crescents correlate with smooth mare-like regions seen in sunlight on the limb. In the attachment I have attempted to superimpose a simulated view of the Moon with the North Celestial Pole vertical (the Moon's North Pole is slightly clockwise from that) on two of our clearer crescent images. These lunar simulations were created with the Lunar Terminator Visualization Tool, but any similar software would do. The red line represents the expected axis of the illuminated crescent. The letters A..D mark four areas that appear to be consistently bright in your superimposed images. I notice, incidentally, that as time progresses from 5:54 UT to 8:16 UT the peak of the brightness in your images seems to shift from A towards D, but I suspect this an artifact of the processing, since the expected rotation of the crescent is much less, and logically most everything that was bright at 5:54 UT should be brighter still at 8:16 UT.
If one knew for sure what the scale and orientation of the crescent images were, then an exercise like this should lead to a clear and unambiguous identification of the lunar regions responsible for their brightest parts. Unfortunately I can't tell from your website if I have the scale quite right, and I have no idea if the North Celestial Pole up rotation of the simulations matches the actual orientation of the camera. For example, it is clear from the simulations that a part of Mare Australe would have been on the limb and in sunlight, but with an unclearly specified scale and rotation it might account for patch C or D or neither.
This is a long-winded way of explaining why a clearer documentation of the scale and orientation of your very intriguing photos would be helpful (and please forgive me if it is already there in the German but I missed it).
I am also curious if you know if Bernd Gährken's Second Place photo in the Interstellarum contest is also a daytime crescent? And is his RG100 also an IR-Pass filter? Based on the reported local time of day (12:10 MEZ on February 18, 2007) Bernd's would appear to have been taken near noon, but perhaps it was taken from a site outside Germany?
Finally, am I correct in assuming that you are now interested in photographing the Moon at elongation angles even smaller than 4.7°?
-- Jim
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MondatlasMart
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 25
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Hello Jim,
Thank you for your extensive reply and additional work with the images!
I have modified some of my pages according to your suggestions and also provided several english texts: Mondatlas - whats new
I am aware that we could reach a crescent of "zero" age with that technique. I hope to be able to do that in may, when the next good opportunity will arive for my location.
I am not sure, that much smaller elongations are really feasible as the contrast in the images is already border-line. I have an even earlier series from the same day in june where i could not find the crescent any more.
The baffles used so far leave a lot room for improvement, though, and i am currently building my second iteration of an improved system.
As you have noted, the camera was indeed oriented with north a the top and west to the right. The pixel scale was 2.31 arcseconds per pixel for the 1x1 binned images.
Bernds images were taken from our observatory in munich and were taken close to local noon. (The contest was actually restricted to the german-speaking countries where the magazine is published.) The RG1000 glass is also a infrared-pass filter, with a 50% transmission at 1000nm. My filter was from RG950 glass.
I also try to investigate, how similar techniques could affect the day-time visibility of the crescent. I have already had some contact with astronomers from other countries, where the visibility of the lunar crescent is a really big issue. That would be quite interesting, too (including religious debates...)
Best regards, Martin
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Jim Mosher
sage
   
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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Martin,
Thanks for the precise information about the scale of your images. The scale of the LTVT simulations showing the expected layout of the lunar features that I overlaid on your images in the previous message is 4.73 arc-sec/pixel. That's pretty close to the 4.62 arc-sec/pixel of the 2x2 binned crescent images on which they were laid. It is, therefore, tempting to tip the simulation a bit to explore what features are one the limb at the locations were brightenings are seen, but as you mentioned in a private message, the camera may have been mounted at an angle slightly different from the exact North Celestial Pole up orientation assumed in the simulations. There are a number of candidate regions along the limb that might be flat enough and visible enough from Earth to explain the brightenings, but since a slight rotation can move the patches of light from one feature to another I hesitate to draw any firm conclusions.
More experience in this new field will, I'm sure, produce images in which the fine details of these extraordinary observations can be better understood.
--
For those who may be interested I've added a brief (but I hope accurate) account of the Danjon Limit to the-Moon Wiki, which, if I understand correctly, is said to predict that no crescent at all should be visible when the Moon's distance from the Sun is less than 7° because of the impossibility of seeing the sunlit areas under those circumstances. Obviously, your photos demonstrate that this is not the case. As one of the crude diagrams presented there attempts to show, Danjon's reasoning notwithstanding, it's really hard to imagine a topography that would cause no light at all to be seen at the Moon's sunlit limb; although the sunlit patches might become so small and foreshortened that very high resolution would be required to see them well.
--
As you note on your website, the ultimate extension of your experiments would be to move the telescope above the Earth's atmosphere, where one has only scatter within the instrument to contend with. I've been unable to find much information on what the Moon looks like, when close to the Sun, as seen from space; although many photos seem to have been taken, usually inadvertently, by scientists studying the Sun's corona. One early mission reportedly detected a sunglint from Mare Marginis when the Moon was just 2° from the Sun; but when the same team reported on a later rocket flight that captured the Moon at a similar elongation they failed to mention if any trace of a crescent was seen. So I don't know if the initial report was accurate, or not.
As a supplement to today's LPOD I'm posting here some typical images of the appearance of the Moon in white light (as seen from space) at extremely small elongations. The image on the left is from the same team that reported the Mare Marginis sunglint, while the two are the right are from the post-Apollo Skylab program. The main thing the scientists are interested in is the relative intensity of the Earthshine-lit Moon relative to the corona. As you can see, when very close to the Sun (indicated by the white symbols pasted in the center), the Moon is the darker of the two. The last image on the right is cropped from something similar to the middle one (but on another day) and printed to show the details of the lunar features seen in Earthshine (the little white dots are markers added to indicate places whose intensities were monitored as part of the calibration process). It is not at all evident that any special brightening can be seen along the sunward limb at these extremely small elongations; but the crescent itself is expected to be extremely thin, so this may be simply a matter of inadequate resolution to detect it.
--
For the present purpose it's a shame that the LASCO instrument aboard the joint NASA/ESA satellite SOHO is parked outside the Moon's orbit on the sunward side of the Earth. It's been very successful at detecting sun-grazing comets. If it were in a low-earth orbit, then each month we could see the Moon pass through its 15° radius field centered on the Sun, and have a much better understanding of what extreme lunar crescents look like (unfortunately from its actual location the Moon can never be seen).
Perhaps astronauts on the International Space Station, or astronauts before them, have attempted to sight or photograph the Moon when it was close to the Sun? If so, has anyone seen their reports on what they saw?
-- Jim
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MondatlasMart
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 25
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Hello Jim,
I had some clear weather on the weekend, so i did some more tests on the lunar crescent. The moon is still several days from new, but i did some IR-imaging, to check, how much of the terminator-region could be extracted from the blue sky.
The page Crescents in February has an image of the crescent, taken 11am local time and a comparison from Guide 8. The moon was 10° above the horizon, the sun was 22° above the horizon and 44° to the east.
It appears to me, that the IR-setup does not show the full width of the terminator-region, as simulated with Guide. Of course, the geometry is different from a true "thin crescent", so it is probably not usefull to compare the brightness of different regions with their visual brightness.
Observing visually, the moon, venus and jupiter could be found during the day, but mercury proved impossible at 8° elongation, even during twilight.
Alas, the weather forecast for the next few days is quite bad.
Best regards, Martin
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Jim Mosher
sage
   
Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 433
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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Martin,
It seems extremely doubtful to me that the edge of the terminator would be located differently at 1 micron vs. in the visible (0.5 micron); and, if anything, I would think that at a trailing edge like this, the lingering surface warmth might extend it very slightly into the area that has just been plunged into darkness.
The problem, I think, is with the Guide 8 software which is simply showing the terminator in the wrong position relative to the lunar surface features. I'm not at all familiar with Guide 8, but the image from it that you show puts the terminator at 10:03 UT on Feb. 3, 2008 running through Aristarchus, in the north, and roughly tangent to the east rim of Mersenius, in the south. This is really the theoretical terminator position some 4 to 5 hours earlier. By 10:03 UT the terminator (for a spherical Moon) would be well onto the Aristarchus Plateau, in the north, and roughly down the middle of Mersenius, as well as tangent to the east rims of Billy and Schickard in the south. That looks pretty close to where you saw it in your photo.
I'm not sure why Guide 8 would make this mistake. It's not a sophisticated calculation that requires knowledge of the observer's location or the Moon's libration: it's simply a matter of drawing a circle 90° from the Sun's position in the lunar coordinate system, which happens to have been 139.47°W/0.41°S.
If you need an accurate representation of the theoretical terminator position relative to the lunar surface features. I might suggest the freeware Lunar Terminator Visualization Tool, or the LIGHT version of VMA 3.5 or later (this popular program also comes in "Basic", "Expert" and "Pro" versions but strangely, the higher versions represent the terminator by a kind of huge sawtooth graphic that moves in large steps. It is not only less clear, but also far less accurate than the simple line used in the LIGHT version. Also, all versions of VMA prior to 3.5 use a flawed ephemeris calculation, although that is probably primarily of interest if you are making predictions for the distant past or future.) There are probably many other programs that show the lunar terminator accurately. Guide 8 just doesn't seem to be one of them.
Of course, all these programs only tell you where the terminator would lie if the Moon were a perfect sphere. Until the detailed topographic information from the new crop of lunar space probes becomes available, the only way to tell what the terminator will actually look like is to look at a photo taken at a time when the theoretical terminator matches the predicted position at the time you're interested in.
--
The other matter of even more interest (at least to me) in connection with your work on thin crescents is how far the crescent extends at its tips. Since the current generation of simulation software assumes a spherical Moon, it is always going to show a perfect 180 deg crescent. The French astronomer Andrè Danjon thought the length became systematically shorter as the crescents got thinner. While this may be true to some extent, I would guess he might have based his conclusions on the inadequate reports and photos available to him in the 1930's. The sequence from Feb. 18, 2007 on your 2007 Thin Crescents page illustrates the problem nicely. When first spotted in the late afternoon sky at 15:40 local time, the crescent looks extremely short (53° or so?). When the Sun sets at 17:48, we see it is much longer than it at first appeared (at least 122°), and by 18:26 (when the sky has darkened enough to see the Earthshine), we see it is longer still (at least 162°). Obviously, the crescent is not really changing during this time, only our ability to see it.
Since extremely thin twilight crescents (observed visually) are never seen in fully dark skies, and since the thinner they are the brighter the sky they will be when they are observed, it's easy to see how Danjon could have been fooled into thinking the crescent was shortening (or at least overestimated the amount by which it shortened if it really does shorten).
The question arises: is 162° the "real" length of the 18:26 crescent, or if the photo were exposed more deeply, or if it were possible to extract greater contrast (e.g. in the infrared), would it extend still farther? Might it possibly go the full 180°??
Perhaps someone here has made observations of this type: trying to see just how far the tips of the crescent really go. I myself spent some time his morning looking through my (quite good optical quality) window at the roughly 7% illuminated Moon as it rose in the pre-dawn sky. With my 4-inch (aperture) Maksutov I found it extremely difficult to decide with certainty where the crescent ended. Especially in the north, I thought I might be seeing a vague hint of a razor thin extension of the cusp beyond what I would at first have taken to be its "end". Perhaps a camera that could look more deeply and with better contrast than my eyes (and, hopefully, with larger aperture/better resolution and better seeing) could have seen more?
-- Jim
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MondatlasMart
member
Reged: 01/24/08
Posts: 25
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Hello Jim,
It is probably quite difficult to capture the full extent of the terminator during the day, as the sky-brightness will obscure the fainter regions. When compareing the IR image with images taken in visual light i see far more of the terminator in IR, but still not neccessarily all of it. The only way to be sure that you actually captured the full extent of the terminator is to also capture the earth-shine (assuming sufficient resolution), or to have a real 3D-model of the lunar surface and simulate the terminator.
So, from this IR-image alone, i would not judge the correctness of a software. I will check other images with different exposure settings (conventional images at twilight) and compare the captured terminator with the data shown in Guide.
I totally agree with your point that contrast is the all-important thing in seeing and imaging the width and length of the crescent. Probably some practical limit of elongation exists for a given set of sky-conditions, technique used and such, simply because it gets more and more difficult to image or see any part of the crescent through the foreground-brightness.
Best regards, Martin
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