gazerjim
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Pess, I guess you are referring to the Planck length.
Is space something, or a non-existent artifact of our thought processes? Some physicists are returning to the concept of space as a substance, or aether; although none wanting to keep a career would call it that.
Laughlin speculates that space may be a different phase state of matter and energy, although he offers no direct evidence. Verbally, anyway, I would question how GR can have it both ways. I see GR as initially defining space as a null concept in that masses are not separated by it, but "spatially extended". But in dealing with gravity, GR invokes space being warped by the presence of masses that take the path of least resistance through it in time. This seems self-contradictory.
The usual caveats of inadequate reasoning by verbal analogy apply. 
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Jim, your final sentence says it all.
Truly GR and Quantum physics are merely separate facets of the same gem.
But I fear it may take some time before the magnificence of the entire crystal manifests itself.
I was merely being descriptive with no attempt at being explanatory.
Pesse (Words are limiting but math explains everything-- including stuff that does not exist. The answer is somewhere in the middle.) Mist
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llanitedave
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I'd say math describes everything. The explanation is up to you.
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HiggsBoson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/07
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I am not an expert but from my reading GR asserts space-time is a something, not a nothing. The same holds for true of SR. Reference to space apart from time are not likely to have come from GR.
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Michael
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Pess
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Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Is it proper to talk about SR and GR in the context of atomic particles, let alone things that exist over the Planck length?
We may find that when the Universe is understood at this resolution we may find that space exists as distinct quanta while time is the relationship of these quanta to each other.
Faster than light travel IS possible and can be done today. How? see below.
Pesse (Simply pass light through a medium of sufficiently high refractive index and light will slow to whatever speed one desires. Then simply walk faster than that light propagates...Viloa', FTL travel!) Mist
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AleX`G
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/29/06
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Loc: Scotland UK
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Again just wondering out loud.
Did planck not just fit his constant h to the spectrum he observed in order to explain the energy he observed from a spectrum.
The question I ask is why is h what it is do these constants change with time are such constants determined at the birth of the universe.
I see how quantization works(I think) but im not sure I like the fact that there is a fundamental limit and how fundamental are these limits that we have seen?
Alex
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Never express yourself more clearly than you think. - Niels Bohr
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Pess
(Title)
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Posts: 1910
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Quote:
The question I ask is why is h what it is do these constants change with time are such constants determined at the birth of the universe.
Almost certainly not. The physical constants could likely have not settled into their well known values until AFTER the early inflationary period concluded.
My 'guess' is that the inflation had something to do with the folded up dimensions either unfolding or juxtapositioning themselves.
of course, all this supposition is based on other supposition that may or maynot be valid. For example, the inflationary phase of the universe appears to be validated from a few different directions but nobody has a clue WHY it happened, only the clue that it did.
Pesse (If I could clarify this further, i would submit it to a journal.) Mist
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HiggsBoson
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Reged: 02/21/07
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Quote:
Is it proper to talk about SR and GR in the context of atomic particles, let alone things that exist over the Planck length?
Yes. The big bang theory was derived by talking about things larger than a Plank length.
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We may find that when the Universe is understood at this resolution we may find that space exists as distinct quanta while time is the relationship of these quanta to each other.
When is this scheduled to occur?
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Faster than light travel IS possible and can be done today. How? see below.
Pesse (Simply pass light through a medium of sufficiently high refractive index and light will slow to whatever speed one desires. Then simply walk faster than that light propagates...Viloa', FTL travel!) Mist
As I understand it the speed of light does not change in a high refractive index medium. Photons are delayed by many interactions. They have not actually slowed down. This is why it takes photons so long to go from the center of the Sun to the surface.
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of course, all this supposition is based on other supposition that may or maynot be valid. For example, the inflationary phase of the universe appears to be validated from a few different directions but nobody has a clue WHY it happened , only the clue that it did.
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Quoting from page 284 of “The Fabric of the Cosmos” by Brian Greene
“Guth was able to estimate the energy and negative pressure contributed by the Higgs field he and Tye had been studying. And the answer he found was more than 10^100 times larger than the value Einstein had chosen. This number is huge, obviously, and so the outward push supplied by the Higgs field’s repulsive gravity is monumental compared with what Einstein envisioned originally with the cosmological constant.”
Later on the same page
“The cosmological picture emerging form Guth’s breakthrough is thus the following. A long time ago, when the universe was enormously dense, its energy was carried by a Higgs field perched at a value far from the lowest point on its potential energy bowl. To distinguish this particular Higgs field from others ( such as the electroweak Higgs field responsible for giving mass to the familiar particle species, or the Higgs field that arises in grand unified theories ) it is usually called the inflaton field. Because of its negative pressure, the inflaton field generated a gigantic gravitational repulsion that drove every region of space to rush away from every other, in Guit’s language, the inflation drove the universe to inflate.”
The above quote provides substantial and credible evidence that at least three people have a clue.
Note: inflaton is spelled correctly.
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Michael
ATM: 6" F/9 Newtonian Travel Scope
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Yes. The big bang theory was derived by talking about things larger than a Plank length.
I'll let them know they can throw out quantum theory. 
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When is this scheduled to occur?
Hmmm, I thought I used the word 'may', I'll look back and make sure.
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As I understand it the speed of light does not change in a high refractive index medium. Photons are delayed by many interactions.
Technically true if you want to get all quantum-mechanical about it. From a quantum mechanical view photons either scatter, that is take an effectively longer route (Bose-Einstein condensate) or absorb/re-emit (such as the Suns radiation zone.)
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The above quote provides substantial and credible evidence that at least three people have a clue.
Wild supposition that is based on a particle (Higgs) not even proven to exist.
On a separate note the quote you provided really substantiates the entire point of my post. And that is that constants at the birth of the Universe were wildly different than they are today.
Pesse (It's that tortoise and the Hare thing with the photons.) mist 
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HiggsBoson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 807
Loc: Kal-li-fornia
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Quote:
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Yes. The big bang theory was derived by talking about things larger than a Plank length.
I'll let them know they can throw out quantum theory.
It is well known that GR and QM do not allow the analysis of things that are both small and massive. It does not follow that one must be thrown out. It is clear that one or both must be modified. We do not yet have a full theory. However, this does not mean we have no useful theory.
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As I understand it the speed of light does not change in a high refractive index medium. Photons are delayed by many interactions.
Technically true if you want to get all quantum-mechanical about it. From a quantum mechanical view photons either scatter, that is take an effectively longer route (Bose-Einstein condensate) or absorb/re-emit (such as the Suns radiation zone.)
This forum is read by people who have an interest in science. While many know that your statement was a joke, some may take it seriously.
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The above quote provides substantial and credible evidence that at least three people have a clue.
Wild supposition that is based on a particle (Higgs) not even proven to exist.
I am surprised that you would refer to Dr Guth’s work as wild supposition in light of your own conjectures above. His work has withstood peer review for a couple of decades and remains our best model of the event.
The quote clearly indicates that the Higgs field being referred to is not the electroweak Higgs field asserted to be responsible for the property of mass. I agree that it is confusing which is why I included that part of the quote.
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Michael
ATM: 6" F/9 Newtonian Travel Scope
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AleX`G
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 877
Loc: Scotland UK
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I am pretty sure we are all guilty of supposition here but all this supposing however wild it may seem may lead to further investigation and a more coherent theory.
I suppose cosmology is one of the areas of physics where supposition is key driving force due to our lack of experimental data. QM has been largely built upon by experimental tests things we can actually test in a lab in cosmology we find ourselves looking into space and trying to explain what we see. We cannot test for more than we see, so we have to suppose, then we can look for these suppositions. Ie Higs boson that is supposed to be out there.
Alex
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Celestron/Vixen 102 f9.8
Vixen GP
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Never express yourself more clearly than you think. - Niels Bohr
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1910
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
I am pretty sure we are all guilty of supposition here but all this supposing however wild it may seem may lead to further investigation and a more coherent theory.
Truer words were never spoken. This is a forum to have fun in and not an indexed, refereed journal.
I believe even Higgs himself was not quite happy with his proposed particle....but believes it to exist since it is and remains the only logical thing that fits all the observed data.
In regard to the period of Inflation in the Universe, I think Hawkins has pretty much presented a case against the Higgs field as the source of the energy driving it and physicists now look toward supersymmetry for help in explaining it.
Supersymmetry, of course, is right down the same avenue as Superstring theory which, in turn, deals with the concept of folded up additional dimensions...hmmmm..I heard that somewhere before.
Of course much of this is beyond me as I am just a simple man trying to eek out an existence in a world so cruel my chauffeur was forced to lay off his personal aroma therapist. 
Pesse (The best things in life are free---but it's the late charges that kill ya.) Mist
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jfosc
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/29/07
Posts: 918
Loc: Quakertown, PA
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Quote:
I am pretty sure we are all guilty of supposition here
Guilty as charged.
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-Jim
"The Universe is expanding. That should help ease the traffic" - Stephen Wright
"Listen, kid...when I was your age Pluto was a planet!"
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10475
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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I'm personally guilty of superposition.
But that's neither here nor there.
--------------------
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
Edited by llanitedave (04/13/08 01:04 AM)
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