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AZKick
super member
Reged: 02/25/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Just looking for genral info here, I know one size doesn't fit all. With programs like DeepSkyStacker, Registack, ect., does the totel time work out the same as one long exposier? If I set my camera on bulb and piont it at the stars for say 30 minutes, I would get lots of light (image build up) on the frame, and lots of faint stars would be visable in that shot. Now if I use the same camera/lens settings and did 30 1 minute shots of the same thing, then stacked them, would that be about the same image? Just the basics here, not looking to get into a lesson on mounts, film speed, camera noise, washed out photos due to 30 minutes exposiers, ect. Just looking for theories here. And if that is the case, how much time would I need to shoot for to start seeing the stacking software do something? I did barndoor shots last night for 1 minute and stacked 6 in the stacking software. The stacked image did not look much, if at all, differant. Would I start seeing more detail if I stack 30 minutes of shots? Or 100 minutes? Again, thanks for the help, I find if I understand the princibles, I will enjoy and get more out of something.
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
   
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12070
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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How to say this without sounding strange.... Hmmmm...
Stacking images are not really adding more detail.. Think about all the detail ALREADY being in each image.. Adding more to the stack reduces the NOISE in those images.. The more you stack, the more noise you remove... In turn, you're revealing more detail.
-------------------- Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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kargan
member
Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 63
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Lots of physics involved if you'd like to calculate it, but the bottom line is that they are not the same.
As a very general of why -- let's take sensitivity of the camera and color depth of the image. There's a threshold there where a weak number of photons will not register on the individual shorter frames. Stack 1,000 frames of 0 and you still have zero.
Now take a 10 minute image and allow the photons to build over those 10 minutes and you've passed the threshold and have alot more data.
-------------------- Thanks,
Fred
Meade LX90GPS 8" SCT Alt-Az
Meade DSI Pro II w/ Color Slide
Meade F/6.3 Focal Reducer
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 5600
Loc: Islamabad, Pakistan
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To add..
As you increase the exposure duration, in addition to adding more noise you also add in more amp glow and other artifacts. There's a point where no more additional time will help. Also, the longer the individual exposure the more subs you will need to to remove the noise effectively.
Shorter exposures offer the ability to capture more of them, while also giving you enough frames that you can toss out the poor ones and just keep the better ones. But you also capture less faint detail so you have to balance the two.
I often see people state that their 3 min x 10 subs is a 30 minute exposure. That's not true, since they are averaging them. Instead they have a very clean 3 minute shot.
CF
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Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!
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Miguel Lopes
sage
Reged: 01/04/07
Posts: 481
Loc: Portugal
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It also depends a lot on the light pollution of your area...
-------------------- Astrology is the science for ignorants. Astronomy is the science for those who feel ignorant. - Miguel Lopes
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
   
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 6579
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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You really do have to have a sufficient exposure time to capture your object. If you do then you're gold - if not then stacking won't help. Depending on the object's brightness, 30 seconds may be plenty of time. Then again...
I did an experiment last year to see if six 5 minute frames taken of M20 were equal to a single 30 minute frame. Have a look at the results of my experiment.
Charlie
--------------------
Weston CSC:
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AZKick
super member
Reged: 02/25/08
Posts: 129
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Wow, ok, after reading your comments I went out and took some more pictures at 2 minutes each and stacked 11 (plus 4 dark frames, (more questions on that later)) and I see a big difference from my first attempt. Lots more stars in the shot. I was wrong about how I thought the stacking software works. Am I on the right track thinking the software will compare all the frames and remove the (noise) stuff that is not in most of the frames? It will see those random pixels as something from the camera, not the image?
Scott
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 5600
Loc: Islamabad, Pakistan
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Correct. The noise you see in the camera is random. The object details are not. So when you AVERAGE the frames, the random noise gets washed away with each additional sub while the actual true detail from the object you are photographing becomes clearer to see.
CF
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Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!
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Jared
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/11/05
Posts: 1871
Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
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There is one other reason not mentioned by anyone else that one 30s exposure is different from thirty 1s exposures... Read noise. Each exposure--no matter what the duration--has a component of noise that is generated in reading out the exposure from the detector. Obviously, more exposures result in more read noise. Fewer exposures result in less read noise. This is the biggest reason that noise levels are actually lower in fewer/longer exposures even when the total exposure time is the same.
-------------------- - Jared Willson
- Fluorostar FLT-110 w/ TEC optics
- Vixen VC200L
- Astro-Physics Mach1 GTO
- Stellarvue SV80S
- Takahashi Teegul SP Mount
- STL-11000
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s58y
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 4861
Loc: Eastern NY
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It's claimed that stacking subexposures approxmiates a longer exposure only when the readout noise from each subexposure is "overwhelmed" by other noise. This other noise includes the random noise from the dark current, sky background, etc.
Somewhere, I've seen calculators that compute the shortest allowable subexposures that would allow stacking to properly reduce the noise level. I think that one second subs are too short in most cases to allow for proper noise reduction during stacking. One minute subs might be OK in some cases, but I've been using 10-minute subs lately.
There's a school of thought that says you should have at least a dozen to twenty subexposures in the completed image, as long as the subs are long enough to overwhelm the read noise. This number of subs alows the stacking software to exclude satellite trails, cosmic ray hits, etc.
-------------------- Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, SV66 guidescope
AP900, G-11, Barndoor tracker
http://www.pbase.com/s58y
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Ion01
member
Reged: 01/25/08
Posts: 15
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Another question- Everyone here is talking about using "average" when stacking. Using something like "add" would simulate a longer exposure would it not? (of course it is only working with existing information as mentioned earlier, 0x10=0, thus the use of the word simulate)
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Adrena1in
sage
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 275
Loc: Hampshire, UK
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Quote:
I did an experiment last year to see if six 5 minute frames taken of M20 were equal to a single 30 minute frame. Have a look at the results of my experiment
That's really interesting to see the apparent lack of difference between one 5-minute sub and six 5-minute subs stacked. (My early experiments with stacking produced similar results, but I put it down to me not knowing what I was doing with DeepSkyStacker! All I managed to remove really was a bit of noise, but the target object didn't really look that much clearer.)
Your 30-minute sub is astounding...that's some accurate alignment/tracking and a very noiseless image. I won't ask how much you've spent on your setup!
-------------------- Phenix 102mm f/5.9, Phenix 127mm f/9.5 and Orion ST80 f/5 refractors on EQ5 with GOTOStar
Phillips SPC900NC, Meade DSI-C, Canon EOS 450D with 18-55mm IS, 28-105mm and 75-300mm plus 2x TC
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
   
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 6579
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
That's really interesting to see the apparent lack of difference between one 5-minute sub and six 5-minute subs stacked. (My early experiments with stacking produced similar results, but I put it down to me not knowing what I was doing with DeepSkyStacker! All I managed to remove really was a bit of noise, but the target object didn't really look that much clearer.)
My take away on this is that you really need enough signal (exposure) to do a good job of capturing the target. Stacking works to help eliminate the noise, but you need a sufficient number of frames in order to make a noticeable improvement in noise. How many frames that ends up being depends entirely on how much noise you have to start with.
I'm sure that someone out there knows how to represent this mathematically, but for most of us it's a matter of trial and error until we figure out the variables - object brightness, camera sensitivity, tracking capability, etc.
Quote:
Your 30-minute sub is astounding...that's some accurate alignment/tracking and a very noiseless image. I won't ask how much you've spent on your setup!
The biggest change was adding the SBIG camera to the rig. Being able to guide through the same scope you're imaging through is a huge advantage that can't be understated.
That said, when imaging through an SCT on the Atlas (and most mounts for that matter) you need to have a really still evening and things need to be clicking along just fine. I was doing 10 minute frames earlier that night and figured that if you're guiding well past the worm period with no problems then (environmental issues like wind aside) you should be able to expose for as long as your camera will let you without saturating the pixels, and the SBIG seems to like going quite long.
Charlie
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Weston CSC:
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M.Taylor
Vendor
Reged: 10/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
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A simplified formula for calculating signal to noise is:
SNR = S / ((SqRt) S+B+D+nRN2)
S=Total Signal B=Total Background Signal D=Dark Current RN=Read Noise From Bias Frame n=Number Of Exposures
The usual method for reducing the amount of noise in a CCD image is to stack a number of exposures. While the signal from the object being imaged remains relatively the same from exposure to exposure the noise does not, it's more random in nature. The signal to noise ratio measures the amount of signal in an image relative to noise, the more signal & less noise the better the photo. Since signal remains relatively the same exposure to exposure, averaging two exposures will increase the signal level by almost double, but noise which does not remain the same will only increase by the square root of the number of exposures stacked, or about 1.4x on average.
While this works for any length of exposure used, a single 10 minute exposure starts with a better signal to noise ratio than 10 x 1 minute exposures although the advantage is slight until stacking begins ;^)
So, to make a better photo increase the signal to noise ratio by stacking. Every time you double the number of exposures stacked the noise ratio will decrease by approx. 1.4x (or the SqRt of the number of exposures stacked), where you hit the point of diminishing returns will be up to you (time spent imaging & stacking vrs. increase in signal to noise ratio).
Clear as mud, right?
-------------------- Matt Taylor
Antique Photons Observatory
Meade Beta Tester & 4M Advisor
MI-250, WO 132mm APO, Orion 80ED
Meade AR6 & 80ED APO, WO 66ED Triplet
ST2000XM, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro III
DSI Tutorials On DVD: www.mallentaylor.com
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groz
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 541
Loc: Duncan, BC
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Its not possible to correctly answer this question without a lessson on noise as you originally requested, the process of stacking is ALL ABOUT NOISE. Lets simplify the problem, and, use nice round numbers to make the math clear. Assume a camera that reads out in the range of 0 to 100. Read noise is constant, random in the range of 0 to 10. Simplify again, dark current is constant, and 0. Further simplify, for each photon that hits the sensor, the readout number bumps up by 1. Now, point this camera at a target that emits one photon per second on a small portion of the sensor.
If we take a one second exposure, and look at the results. Home in on a single pixel that's recieving photons from the target, it will have a value of 1 for signal, and noise somewhere between 0 and 10. Only the pixels reading out a full value of 11 allow us to be 100% confident that there is signal in the pixel, but if it reads out 9, it could be all noise, or, it could be signal and noise, we cannot tell with any degree of confidence the difference.
Same conditions, but, take a 30 second exposure. Pixels that are recieving signal will read out 30+noise which means in the range of 30 to 40, while pixels not recieving signal will still read out in the range of 0 to 10. It will now be clear which are recieving signal, and which are not.
So, now, lets look at the stack of 30 1 second exposures, again, looking at a single pixel recieving signal, simple addative stack. Each frame has a readout of 0 to 11, but, we know the average of the noise will be 5, the midpoint of the noise on the readout. If we read that pixel 30 times, the total noise will sum to approximately 150 (30x5), and the signal will sum to 30. The entire background of the image will be pixels in the area of 150, while the signal portion will be pixels in the area of 180, after adding all 30 frames together. There will be some variance, and this is the noise characteristic of the camera.
Now lets compare the values on the 30 second image, and those on the 30 second stack. Totals on the single frame for a pixel with signal will be in the 30 to 40 range, with noise in the 0 to 10 range. The ratio of signal to noise is now 40 to 10, so the SNR = 4. Good solid signal to noise ratio, and well defined signal. On the stack, looking at that same pixel after adding them all, noise is 150, signal is 180, so the signal to noise ratio is 180 to 150, SNR = 1.2. Note that the absolute value of the difference is similar, 40-10=30 while 180-150=30.
So, for this setup, with appropriate post processing, we _can_ get similar results in the final image for a star the emits 1 photon per second into our image rig by shooting one 30 second exposure, vs 30 1 second exposures. Now, re-run the math for a star that emits 1 photon every 3 seconds.
In the single 30 second exposure, that pixel will read out 10, plus a random noise component between 0 and 10. It may or may not stand out from the read noise initially, but mathematically we can say with certainty it's there, it has read out a value between 11 and 20. The math will show us, that pixel has _some_ signal with 100% certainty. Same pixel in the 1 second exposures, after 30 reads we will have a noise total of 150. On 10 of those reads we will get a signal bump and 20 of them will have no signal at all, so that particular star will total 160 in the stack. 160/150 = 1.06 so our signal to noise ratio on that particular star is 1.06, and once we do the math, we will discover that with only 30 frames, we cannot statistically verify it even exists, we'll likely need to take another 30 to 50 frames before we can statistically validate the existance of that one signal point, and confirm it's not just a random bump in the noise readouts.
Repeat the math one more time for a star emitting 1 photon every 5 seconds, and you will find, the 30 second exposure still shows it, while in the stack of 1 second exposures, it cannot be differentiated from the background noise at all. Depending on how well we have characterized the noise readout on the camera, a stack of 120 one second exposures _may_ be able to pick that star out of the background, but it's a statistically challenging problem. If we were accounting for dark currents, vignetting, and a few more details, the problem becomes statistically insurmountable. And, that's all stacking really is, a practical application of statistics.
Now, another very interesting detail comes out when doing this kind of stacking, and, that's going to DIRECTLY answer your initial question. If we do the addative stack of 120 shots, look at what kind of readout values we are working with. Consider that your dslr reads out in the range of - to 4096, and we stack 100 of them, then we end up with pixels reading out 0 to 409,600, but to display them on the computer screen, they get scaled into the range 0 to 255 in the primary color channels on your screen. All that effort to capture the detail, and, when displaying on the computer screen, everything in the range 0 to 1600 gets scaled to 0 on the display, and everything from 1601 to 3200 crunches to 1 on the display. Until you apply non linear stretching (levels and curves), you wont see any of that detail you worked so hard to capture.
Another detail one _must_ keep in mind. Stacking is nothing more than a practical application of statistical principles. Statistics = Lies, Lies, and more *BLEEP* lies.....
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M.Taylor
Vendor
Reged: 10/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
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The practical application of statistical principles in CCD imaging is in the mean value of photons collected by a sensor over time. (Xbar +/- (SqRt(XBar))) which simply states that the distrobution follows the normal distrobution curve in that 68% of the samples taken will fall between the (mean - SqRt(mean)) and (mean + SqRt(mean)) and the percentage of samples at the next higher point within the curve, and higher, will increase as the SqRt of the mean rises.
Stacking of exposures is vested in the law of averages as it applies to random variables (in this case noise) which says that it will only increase by the SqRt(Number Of Samples) Vrs. an averaged constant (signal).
Statistically speaking, on average I'll take the glass that's half full over the one half empty any day. <grin>
-------------------- Matt Taylor
Antique Photons Observatory
Meade Beta Tester & 4M Advisor
MI-250, WO 132mm APO, Orion 80ED
Meade AR6 & 80ED APO, WO 66ED Triplet
ST2000XM, DSI Pro II, DSI Pro III
DSI Tutorials On DVD: www.mallentaylor.com
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