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PeteH
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Cypress, Texas
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In case you have not seen it - there is an excellent photo on APOD today that shows how things could be for all of us if light pollution ordinances were more widespread.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080416.html
It's a beautiful night sky shot taken just 10K from the center of Flagstaff, Arizona - a city with a long standing light pollution ordinance. Quite inspiring.
-Pete
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AstroBobo
sage
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 395
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
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It looks like a composite photo.
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Boris Stromar : AD Infinitum member : Zagreb, Croatia, Europe
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csa/montana
Astro Ambassador
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 28629
Loc: montana
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Pete, thanks for posting the link; and thanks to Flagstaff! 
Carol
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Carol
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jgw12936
sage
Reged: 03/28/07
Posts: 353
Loc: The Woodlands, TX
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Thanks Pete for posting, Flagstaff is my home town, I lived there for 20 years, the skies and the San Francisco Peaks are both awe inspiring!
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Jim
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turtle86
sage
Reged: 10/09/06
Posts: 300
Loc: Between Umatilla and Astatula
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Thanks for sharing. About 9 years ago I was sightseeing in the Flagstaff area and was amazed by the night sky there. On the way back from the Grand Canyon one night, maybe 10 miles out from Flagstaff, the summer Milky Way was so bright it cast a shadow. Having lived near light pollution in the Eastern United States all my life, I was awe-struck and spellbound.
Quote:
In case you have not seen it - there is an excellent photo on APOD today that shows how things could be for all of us if light pollution ordinances were more widespread.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080416.html
It's a beautiful night sky shot taken just 10K from the center of Flagstaff, Arizona - a city with a long standing light pollution ordinance. Quite inspiring.
-Pete
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Rob
18" Starmaster
8" LX200
Too many Naglers
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Red Sox, modern lit, golf, tennis, Pearl Jam, Monty Python, fine beer and cheap wine
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2098
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
In case you have not seen it - there is an excellent photo on APOD today that shows how things could be for all of us if light pollution ordinances were more widespread.
Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Remember that Flagstaff has just 100,000 people, and it's surrounded by federally protected, undevelopable land. I live in a metro area of several million that sprawls out until it bumps into another city in every direction except the ocean. Even if we adopted Flagstaff's lighting ordinances, our skies would look nothing like that.
Which isn't to say that we shouldn't adopt light ordinances, of course. I'm sure that good ordinances would make a substantial difference -- maybe cutting skyglow in half, or conceivably even in quarter. But that would still leave the sky very bright.
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Tony Flanders
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jrw11
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 501
Loc: U.S.A.
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That picture is so cool, I had to save it! One of the big problems, one I mentioned in another post. Is that the outdoor lighting is very poorly designed.That's why the coasts are lit up and can be seen from satellites. If they were made properly, the lights could not be seen from space. The skies are lit up because the lighting goes up as well as down. Where I live, there is a light on the side of a building. Below it, the building is lit up, above it, the building is black. The biggest problem we have, is that the general public could care less if they see a star or not.
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AstroBobo
sage
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 395
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
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here's another composite photo - really guys, you can't get this kind of wide field deep sky photos without blurring the foreground because of polar tracking.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_hniHwvqmtfw/Rtpty6YfywI/AAAAAAAAAJc/DvHgo4lfzp0/s1600-h/IMG_0005.JPG
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Boris Stromar : AD Infinitum member : Zagreb, Croatia, Europe
P75SDHF : P105SDP : MN71 : CGE : STL-11000
http://www.astrobobo.net
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Jeremy Perez
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 1675
Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
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Boris, I'm sure you're right, that must be a composite photo. And a gorgeous one at that! It's my desktop background now...
I don't doubt that they took both sky and foreground photos from the same spot on the same night. They likely tucked the sky down lower than normal to hide the blurry foreground horizon line. It's possible they might have been able to include more of that lower sky. If so, there's a chance there would be more natural sky glow visible above the horizon. Still, on a haze & dust free night, the rising Summer Milky Way can be stunningly visible to within just a few degrees above the horizon.
Another advantage Flagstaff has for crystal clear views not far from town (besides the lighting ordinances and low population), is its high altitude (7000 ft). That leads to less aerosols to view through and reflect light, and so a better chance of getting those horizon-to-horizon starry views.
I took some shots 12 miles south of Flagstaff at Lowell Observatory's Anderson Mesa site last year. This was a composite photo of the LONEOS dome and the Winter Milky Way. Both sky and foreground shots were taken over the same hour or so of the evening. I did my best to include the natural and artificial sky glow when compositing all the exposures to show what the lower altitude sky was like. The view looks south, and you can easily see the light dome from Phoenix over a hundred miles away. Flagstaff sports a nice little light dome too, but it's a lot easier to avoid with just a few miles distance.
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Shmals
sage
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 325
Loc: PDX
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I've tried getting a job in Flagstaff, its a shame none have worked out, great shots 
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Tom
"I don't have to out run the bear, I just have to out run you."
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PeteH
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 549
Loc: Cypress, Texas
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Quote:
Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. Remember that Flagstaff has just 100,000 people, and it's surrounded by federally protected, undevelopable land. I live in a metro area of several million that sprawls out until it bumps into another city in every direction except the ocean. Even if we adopted Flagstaff's lighting ordinances, our skies would look nothing like that.
I agree that some areas will never look like this even with ordinances on lighting fixtures - there's just too many lights. I'm lucky that I can drive about 1.5 hours to get to dark skies farther west - but those skies too have been rapidly giving way to "progress" along the I-10 corridor. The land is too valuable to leave alone. An ordinance like the one in Flagstaff out in these areas would protect the skies for future generations as it has done during the past 50 years there.
Flagstaff is a very popular place for both retirees and tourists. I'm sure there is a lot of "progress" going on there - Wikipedia lists the metro Flagstaff area as having a population of 127,000. I know the elevation is high and the humidity is low - but still, that is very impressive for a city that size.
-Pete
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Jeremy Perez
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 1675
Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
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Based on some discussion on the az-observing mailing list, I may have to stand corrected on my assumption that the Duriscoes' photo is a composite. In which case it's even more amazing!
Either way, it has me itching to grab the camera and get out around town on some upcoming moonless nights--hopefully getting some photos that include Flagstaff in the field to show how contained the light dome can be with clear, dark sky all around it. It might be possible to get one with the Flagstaff and Phoenix light domes in the same frame--one city 15 miles away, the other 150 miles away--to see how they compare.
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mkoons
super member
Reged: 11/23/03
Posts: 102
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Come on up to Potter County PA, home of the Black Forest Star party, you can see your shadow from the Milky Way, its nice
Mike
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csa/montana
Astro Ambassador
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 28629
Loc: montana
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Quote:
It has me itching to grab the camera and get out around town on some upcoming moonless nights--hopefully getting some photos that include Flagstaff in the field to show how contained the light dome can be with clear, dark sky all around it. It might be possible to get one with the Flagstaff and Phoenix light domes in the same frame--one city 15 miles away, the other 150 miles away--to see how they compare.
If you have the opportunity to do this; please post your photos here; we'd love to see them!
Carol
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
AstroTech 66ED / Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Tak LE 5mm B/TMB 3.2
7mm Pentax XL, 10mm Pentax XW
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22mm Pan, 35mm Pan
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 2098
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Either way, it has me itching to grab the camera and get out around town on some upcoming moonless nights--hopefully getting some photos that include Flagstaff in the field to show how contained the light dome can be with clear, dark sky all around it. It might be possible to get one with the Flagstaff and Phoenix light domes in the same frame--one city 15 miles away, the other 150 miles away--to see how they compare.
My memory from observing at Upper Mary Lake is that the lights of Flag are much more obtrusive than Phoenix. The skyglow from Phoenix is characteristic of a distant city -- bright but very low, barely affecting the sky 10 degrees above the horizon. Flag, on the other hand, wipes out a whole quadrant of the sky.
Mind you, everything's relative! Despite the lights of Flagstaff, the Gegenschein was readily visible. I wish I could find that within 100 miles of Boston as you can within 10 miles of Flag! And I've concluded that contrary to Bortle's criteria, the subjective impression of light domes is very deceiving. The darker the sky all around, the more a faint light dome stands out. Even the sky within the area that I described as washed out by Flagstaff was probably darker than the best bits of sky at most "dark sites" in Southern New England.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
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8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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