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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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This past weekend I got a chance to view the Moon through my father's 12" Zhumell DOB, and I have to say that some of the features were so sharp and clear that I was taken aback by the stunning views.
Most of my viewing and photography are using a C9.25, and while I thoroughly enjoy the views I have through my scope, there were details I have not seen before.
It has started making me interested in learning more of the Lunar Geography, as well as starting to tinker with my scope to see if my collimation might not be spot on... 
At any rate, one of the features that was most notable to me, were these crevice/crack-like features on the 1/4 moon. My geography isn't up to par to name them off the top of my head, and looking in the Virtual Moon Atlas I couldn't easily spot what I recall seeing, but I want to say they were probably the crevices next to the Sea of Tranquility.
Are these features only visible at the 1/4 moon, or can they be seen at different times of the lunar cycle?
I so often spend time looking for the faint fuzzies, that I completely forget the wonder and beauty available by the most visible stellar object (even through fog.. ).
I hope to see these features with my scope tomorrow, as I figure they're noticeable in other scope types, I just probably haven't looked at the right time.
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Hard to say for sure what you might have seen, there being so many cracks (rilles) in the Moon. You might say the Moon is more than a little bit crazed...
Rilles are some of the most interesting features you'll find on the Moon. As for their visibility, I find rilles easiest to observe a day or so after they emerge from the darkness beyond the terminator. This is true for many lunar features, of course.
If you can find a copy of Atlas of the Moon by Antonin Rukl, you will have an excellent resource for finding and identifying rilles and most other lunar features. Unfortunately, the book has gone out of print, and used copies are currently hard to come by.
The Modern Moon by Charles Wood is a nice introduction to the geology that explains what you see.
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Thanks, I'm sorry I couldn't provide more details, if I had a shot of the moon to work with I could point out approximately where I saw them. I was just blown away by the views.
Tonight I'm going to mess with collimation and get my polar alignment back (think the landscapers bumped the scope, I didn't know they were coming... *SIGH*). the seeing looks pretty decent, though transparency is not as great as it was at my Father's house this weekend.
Also, Amazon is offering the Charles Wood and S&T's Field Map of the Moon by Rukl as a combo. Any experience with the S&T Field Map? I love their Star Atlas, but haven't tried any of their other guides/maps (though I was thinking of picking up their Binoc field guide).
Thanks again.
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 5880
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
.. probably the crevices next to the Sea of Tranquility.
Hi Jim, I took this on April 14th.. does it look familiar?
The 'cracks' are Rima Hyginus (left) and Rima Ariadaeus (right), which are located just west of Mare Tranquillitatis.
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 *Step-by-Step Lunar Sketching*
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
8"SCT ~ 120achro ~ 90Mak ~ 80ST ~ 11x70s ~ 22x100s
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Thanks Carol for the pic. It's a little tough for me to say, as I was viewing the 12" f/4.95 with a 22mm Nagler, so the moon fit nicely in the entire FOV. There was so much detail and contrast I could even see the non-lit side of the moon against the sky background.
Let me see if I can describe in words what I saw (I guess this is why I should take up sketching...  ), the details are fading, so it's tough, but I'll try. In the reflector EP, the lit side of the moon was to the top, unlit to the bottom of the FOV. I was standing and facing roughly West/South-West orientation, the Moon was oriented just west of South (about 9:45pm Pacific Time on Saturday 4/12).
One "crack" ran mostly straight up from just to the left of the midpoint of the moon, between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance from the terminator to the edge of the lit side. A second "crack" slanted a little more steeply to the left, and wasn't as long. I don't think they met, but one could imagine they shared a starting point near a crater.
What struck me was just how sharply defined everything was, so it's been almost etched in my brain, but now that I'm trying to recall the details are fading. Hopefully I'll see something tonight and be able to relay more specific details. Regardless, it was quite amazing and I definitely want to find more things like it.
Thanks for listening to me ramble...
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Also, Amazon is offering the Charles Wood and S&T's Field Map of the Moon by Rukl as a combo. Any experience with the S&T Field Map?
Yes, it's very well done. Especially useful if you're just getting to know the Moon in any detail.
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Quote:
Yes, it's very well done. Especially useful if you're just getting to know the Moon in any detail.
Thanks, I'll pickup a copy and check them out, since I am a Lunie Newbie... (but please don't change my title...  )
I just got in to take a break from observing (even with a variable Polarizing filters the moon is awefully bright!).
I can not see what I saw on Saturday, I guess I'll just have to wait and see if it's visible on the 3/4 moon or wait until next month. About the only detail that I saw that might explain one is a Ray from Tycho, but now I'm not certain.
There are lots of great things to look at, so I'm not done for the night, I'll even try my hand at sketching (though it'll be crude and I'm not up for photography tonight). I think I saw the ridge that forms the scimitar/sword, but since I don't know the geography I'm not going to describe it right now (don't want to frustrate anyone else around here...  ).
Thanks again
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 5880
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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A rough sketch would have helped a lot. 
.."the ridge that forms the scimitar/sword.."
That's 'Rupes Recta' or The Straight Wall, just north of Deslandres. 
Here's an alt-az view of the Moon from the VMA, captured at the time you stated and oriented to your view. Can you mark the area where you saw the features?
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*Step-by-Step Lunar Sketching*
CN Gallery
Photo Gallery
8"SCT ~ 120achro ~ 90Mak ~ 80ST ~ 11x70s ~ 22x100s
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kx9i
super member
Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
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Regarding the Lunar Map by Rukl, be aware that there are two versions: one for inverted-image telescopes and one for binocular views.
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Thanks, I'll pickup a copy and check them out, since I am a Lunie Newbie... (but please don't change my title... )
Now, whatever would make you say such a thing?
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Quote:
A rough sketch would have helped a lot. /quote]
Understood...and after this "incident" I'm definitely going to be paying more attention to details now...  
Ok, I've attempted to "mark" where my mental image of the "cracks" were. But now I'm pretty lost as the features aren't matching with what my brain is telling me from my mental picture, and now I'm not very confident at all (it wasn't a very long observation, it was at the end of the session, but one last peak). This is starting to make me question my mental health...  
What I know for certain was that I saw two striking black lines, one really long (much longer than I would've thought) and another at a sharp angle but smaller. The lines weren't necessarily perfectly straight, but they reminded me of the cracks in an eggshell when you are cracking an egg to make a cake, but much more pronounced.
I'll be on the lookout and let you know what I see in the future. I'm wondering if it might be a one night a month thing with the angle of the sun hitting ridges just right or something, but they felt like they were deep ravines.
Alex, I did notice the mirrored version, I chose the non-mirrored version. Thanks for letting me know.
[gotta get a sketchbook going now...]
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 3247
Loc: Cattaraugus Co., NY
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Quote:
One "crack" ran mostly straight up from just to the left of the midpoint of the moon, between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance from the terminator to the edge of the lit side. A second "crack" slanted a little more steeply to the left, and wasn't as long. I don't think they met, but one could imagine they shared a starting point near a crater.
I do believe you have spotted the "Man in the Moon" moonlighting on his plumbers job.
Ted
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Ted
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
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Quote:
I do believe you have spotted the "Man in the Moon" moonlighting on his plumbers job.
Ted
 Or at least I chuckled pretty good at that.
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks, I'll pickup a copy and check them out, since I am a Lunie Newbie... (but please don't change my title... )
Now, whatever would make you say such a thing?
Ummmm.... personal experience I suppose...
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Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
One "crack" ran mostly straight up from just to the left of the midpoint of the moon, between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance from the terminator to the edge of the lit side. A second "crack" slanted a little more steeply to the left, and wasn't as long. I don't think they met, but one could imagine they shared a starting point near a crater.
When you say "edge of the lit side" do you mean the edge of the lunar disc itself? Did your field of view encompass the entire Moon at the time?
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
One "crack" ran mostly straight up from just to the left of the midpoint of the moon, between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance from the terminator to the edge of the lit side. A second "crack" slanted a little more steeply to the left, and wasn't as long. I don't think they met, but one could imagine they shared a starting point near a crater.
When you say "edge of the lit side" do you mean the edge of the lunar disc itself? Did your field of view encompass the entire Moon at the time?
For the second question (easier to answer): Yes, I could see the entire lunar disc in the field of view (no detail on the unlit side, but I could see the entire circle of the moon, both lit up and unlit in the FOV).
If you define the lit side as a semicircle, the longer "fissure" started a little off center almost near the flat edge of the semicircle (the side opposite from the mass of craters that would be along the lower edge of the semicircle and pass just past the center/anchor point of the semicircles radius). Also it wasn't on the edge of the semicircle but just off the "line" making the bottom of the semicircle. I believe there was a nearly lone crater nearby and it started just "above" this crater ("above" would be toward the arc of the semicircle). The "fissure" ran pretty far towards the arc edge of the semicircle, but not the complete distance. On the other side of the crater near the edge of the semicircle, but at a much more oblique angle the second "fissure" started pretty close and ran out towards the edge of the arc, but was much smaller.
I'm not sure if that description helps, and my mark-up above was as close as I could get, but the features aren't jiving with what I saw. So I'm thinking I'll practice doing some sketching and taking observing notes and by next month I'll be prepared to see it and make better notes.
I am still wondering though if it's a one day a month observation (i.e. angle of the sun and the depth of the shadows), and if it's "thin" enough that it was easily resolved in the 12" scope, but won't be as easily resolved in my 9.25" scope.
Does this help at all? I know I'm stumped...
--------------------
Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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varmint
I invite more abuse
Reged: 02/10/07
Posts: 768
Loc: Pacifica, CA, USA
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I think I finally figured it out! I don't know why I didn't see the patterns when I scrutinized the VMA last time, but something clicked when I started looking for Rupes Recta based on Carol's last post.
To paraphrase Indiana Jones from "Raiders of the Last Ark", "[I was] looking in the wrong spot!" I was close, but my perspective was off, and I think I spent too much time searching using the overcompressed JPG that Carol posted instead of popping back into VMA. Also, when I was in VMA I think I was looking too wide or too narrow so I missed some of the "dots" so to speak.
Here's what I think I saw, and I'm pretty certain that at least the first path (my "straight up" path) is pretty spot on.
First, lets start at Crater Manilius. I've highlighted it in a circle/gradient on the attached pic, showing the orientation as I saw it through the EP.
To the right I believe the one "crack" or "line" I saw was as Carol identified above: Starting at Rima Hyginus, linking to Rima Ariadaeus, then to Rimae Ritter and out to Rimae Hypatia (at least, those are the features I think I've ascertained from VMA... I could be totally wrong).
The problem is that the "left" side doesn't quite jive with what I remember seeing, as I thought it extended closer to the crater. And VMA didn't list it as a named feature but I believe it was a cliff or partial crater wall set in the middle of Mare Serenitatis. The only craters that I could identify in VMA were labelled LINNE F and LINNE B (B was closer to the actual path).
So maybe my mind has over-exaggerated what I recall seeing (now I know another reason why people sketch!). Chalk this one up to newbie observations and realizations 101...
Thanks for all the comments, at least I believe I've finally figured it out.
And I don't think I saw Rupes Recta, but there was a feature inbetween two craters on VMA that looked like what I saw. I just assumed it was the "sword." There I go again...
Thanks again for your help (and patience).
--------------------
Clear Skies,
Jim
--
"Do, or do not. There is no try."-Jedi Master Yoda
Scopes: CGE925, Orion 80ED (w/ADM MDS&Rings)
EPs: Naglers: 31, 22, 17, 9, 3.5 Pan’s: 15
Misc: Telrad, 2x&4x Powermate, Sol/OIII/UHC/Var Pol. Filters
Imaging Gear: Pentax K100D, SPC900NC
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30032
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Tricks of perspective and features lining up(craters, rilles, and wrinkle ridges will do this) was sort of what I was getting at in my last post. What's happening here, I think, is you are learning to "see" the Moon. The eyes are picking up the cues, and now the brain is sorting out and making sense of them. It's a process, that's for sure, and the process is cumulative. Keep at it, and you'll be amazed by how quickly it all starts to make sense. You'll be seeing the Moon as a "landscape" in no time. 
--------------------
Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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