Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Observing >> Lunar Observing

Pages: 1
entropyorganizer
member


Reged: 01/26/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Houston, Texas
Two amazing views, actually three new
      #2333647 - 04/17/08 12:09 PM

Tuesday I set up in the back yard to do some lunar viewing as the sky was very clear. I set up a few hours before sunset. As I was looking at the moon, within a few minutes a satellite passed right across the FOV! Fast! Now, I have seen planes cross, but NEVER a satellite! A bluish light it did have. The sky was still very blue as this was an hour before sunset. After the sun went down, Copernicus was just on the terminator. What a stunning view! At the time I could not see the central mountain inside Copernicus. I panned over to the straight wall and viewed the other parts of the terminator. After a couple of hours I went back to Copernicus and there it was! The central mtn! The shadow across Copernicus with half of the central mtn lit! It was fun to see this image morph. This was a treat. I went back to my colongitude calculator to pin point the longitude and picked this event at 21.9 deg E or so. More than 21.4 deg E and less than 22.1 deg E. Now the challenge to see sunset across Copernicus. My calculator puts this happening on May 29th at 4am. Just maybe I can get lucky and see the flip side of this spectacular event.

Has anybody else seen a satellite pass across the FOV? Is this common?

- Jim

------
TEC 140 f/7
TEC EM 200 T2
Nagler 3.5


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kx9i
super member


Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Re: Two amazing views, actually three new [Re: entropyorganizer]
      #2333755 - 04/17/08 12:52 PM

Jim,

I was observing near Proclus one evening when I saw what seemed to be four silhouetted barrels tumbling around one another, moving across my FOV. I looked up from the eyepiece and back down again. They were not visible without the telescope, and I imagined all sorts of scenes from old sci-fi movies where garbage is ejected from the ship or an accident of some kind lets loose some space junk. That was last December.

I noted the exact time on my watch, came inside and adjusted my watch time to UT time and date and wrote everything down. I started doing an Internet search to see what it might be, or if anyone else had a similar experience.

What I found was ALPO's LTP section: the Association of Lunar and Planetary Observer's Lunar Transient Phenomena. I sent in an email describing what, when, and where I saw it. Instead of laughing at me, or just ignoring me, I got a short analysis of the situation and a question about the speed it moved across my FOV, magnification, etc. I sent my response and got another email shortly afterward.

The bottom line is that what I saw was probably balloons from a local car dealership sales (or similar) event. They were so high up that they could not be seen naked eye, they were perhaps distorted into a barrel shape by pressures at their altitude, and they were all black against the bright surface of the Moon.

I think that's probably right. I will never forget the exhileration of expperiencing such an event. My (somewhat goofy) report was actually published in last February's TLO (The Lunar Observer) - what a thrill!

One thing he mentioned to me was that he actually saw the International Space Station against the Moon, so you probably did see a satellite! If you have the exact time/date in Universal Time, you can confirm it against the satellite database in a modern PC software application. (The latest versions have satellite stats. Mine doesn't because it's too old.)

I have since finished the Lunar and Lunar II programs through the Astronomical League, and I am now in Novice Observer's training through ALPO. Much of this is because I want to do something with my scope beside just personally enjoying the view. But some of it has to do with my being treated with respect by some important and otherwise busy people.

What a great hobby...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tom Faller
member
*****

Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 51
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
Re: Two amazing views, actually three new [Re: entropyorganizer]
      #2334634 - 04/17/08 08:07 PM

Jim:
I've had birds, planes, bright meteors, faint meteors, fireflies and satellites cross my field of view but one of the oddest experiences was to watch a satellite cross backwards across the field. I was observing the belt stars of Orion with a medium power eyepiece in my 5" Mak that was clock-driven, holding the stars steady as I watched. Suddenly, a medium bright object crossed the field backwards - it looked to me like my clock drive had stopped working and everything else was moving. I was really thrown for a moment, then started slewing back to follow it and figured out that as I was drifting along sidereally, I coasted past a geosynchronous satellite just sitting still. I've spotted it a few more times, using Orion to mark where the Earth's plane of rotation lies.

One night years ago I was watching the sky with binoculars from my back yard in Kentucky and I spotted the weirdest column of light coming towards me. I lived near the top of a suburban hill and a light breeze was bringing something up from the local college towards me. As it got close, I was able to see it in detail: two crossed wooden shafts were holding a dozen lit birthday candles, and suspended above them was a lightweight plastic bag, like dry-cleaning comes in. Someone had made a "UFO" and sent it off. It was really creepy looking without binocs. The area was wet enough that it was unlikely the candles with ignite anything.

I also chased UFOs for the university astronomy department that year, and saw some _weird_ stuff, but nothing that a little more power wouldn't resolve into something recognisable.

--------------------
Tom Faller
80mm StellarVue Nighthawk refractor
127mm Orion Maksutov-Cassegrain
200mm homebuilt Dobsonian with Discovery optics
10x50 Carton Adlerblick Binoculars
12" homebuilt truss Dob with Discovery optics


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mikey cee
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 2328
Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: Two amazing views, actually three new [Re: kx9i]
      #2334805 - 04/17/08 09:49 PM

Cans of ALPO dog food?? Mike

--------------------
Mike 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
entropyorganizer
member


Reged: 01/26/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Two amazing views, actually three new [Re: mikey cee]
      #2336010 - 04/18/08 01:21 PM

Tom and Alex, thanks for the stories. Any motion in the FOV is always a surprise. The more time you spend behind the eyepiece the greater the chances are that you will see something moving. It gets us goin'...a "What was that?!" for a few moments.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jim Mosher
sage
*****

Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 233
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Two amazing views, actually three new [Re: entropyorganizer]
      #2338107 - 04/19/08 11:43 AM Attachment (18 downloads)

Jim,

I can't add much about satellite/balloon transits; but in connection with your observation of sunrise over the central peaks of Copernicus I am slightly curious about what you're using for a "colongitude calculator"?

From your verbal description you saw no peaks a little after (your local) sunset, but did see them approximately two hours later. If I'm not mistaken, sunrise over Copernicus occurred on Monday evening (rather than Tuesday) and sunset in Houston would have been at around 7:45 pm CDT (00:45 UT on April 15, 2008).

You are certainly on the right track that events like this are related to terminator position, but colongitude (or the "longitude of the morning terminator" to which you seem to be converting it) doesn't take into account the twist of the terminator due to the Sun's changing (called "Solar inclination" in VMA). For example, when you made your observation at 7:45 pm CDT (Houston sunset), the sun's colongitude was 21.83° which puts the morning terminator at 21.83°W. However, this refers only to the longitude at the point where the terminator crosses the Moon's equator. The Sun's latitude was +1.3°, giving the terminator a counterclockwise twist. Even for a crater as little distant from the equator as Copernicus (9.7°N), this twist causes the expected longitude of the terminator (at that latitude) to be different -- the actual longitude of the theoretical terminator near Copernicus at 7:45 pm CDT would have been about 22.1°W. Because the actual longitude of the terminator near the crater of interest varies in this way, the changing twist can throw features there into light or shadow even though the official colongitude is the same. And most craters are much farther from the equator than Copernicus, so the variations there will be much larger.

As a result, stating the colongitude (without giving the "solar inclination") is only a very rough predictor of when a given lighting condition will be observed at points away from the equator. In general, a much better approach is to state the sun angle at which you observed the event. The sun angle is the Sun's altitude above the local horizon on the Moon, and is computed for the exact location of interest. It takes into account both the colongitude and the Sun's latitude. When the sun angle repeats the lighting will be nearly the same.

In the present case it should be possible to reconstruct what you saw using photos from the LPOD Photo Gallery. In particular it contains a pair of photos taken by George Tarsoudis and one by Helmut Groell, all taken on June 5, 2006. They appear as shown in the attachment, where the sun angle at the center of Copernicus is listed below each photo.

George's photos have been enhanced to try to bring the peaks out of the shadows; but even so, they show them less clearly than Helmut's. The Sun's latitude here is +1.5° (very slightly greater than in was on April 14/15). The red line indicates the direction of the shadow cast by the high spot on Copernicus' east rim that was formerly known as Copernicus Alpha. The central peaks manage to avoid most of this shadow, and it looks like, under these circumstances, they first become visible when the sun angle at the center of Copernicus is around +2.9°. On the evening of Monday, April 14, you should have seen something similar to the first photo (with no peaks visible) at 9:18 CDT, and something similar to the second (with peaks in sunlight) at 9:55 CDT. This seems consistent with your statement that you first saw the peaks when you looked two hours after sunset, although I have trouble reconciling this with your computation that the terminator was at 21.9°E.

The presence of Copernicus Alpha complicates the prediction of sunrise events for other dates when the Sun's latitude is more to the south. A more southerly solar latitude would be expected to swing the shadow around to the north delaying the appearance of the peaks. You can see a photographic example of a Copernicus sunrise event of this sort (where the peaks had to emerge from the shadow of Copernicus Alpha) in Consolidated Lunar Atlas Plate D17. Copernicus Alpha adds an extra 500 meters or so to the elevation of the rim over which the sunlight has to stream, and over a distance of 55 km that adds about 0.5° to the required sun angle. Hence when the Sun is to the south (as it is in this photo), sunrise over the Copernicus central peaks is probably delayed until the sun angle (at the center of Copernicus) is around +3.5°.

Prediction of sunset events is easier because the rim on the west side is much more uniform in height. The LPOD Photo Gallery contains a pair of photos taken by Maximilian Teodorescu which establish that the last whiff of the central peaks is seen when the setting Sun falls below an angle of +2.5° (again, measured at the IAU center of Copernicus).

As you mention, you will have an opportunity to see this sequence from Houston on April 29, 2008, although perhaps a little closer to your local sunrise than you're predicting. Copernicus should look like the first of Max's photos at 10:18 UT (5:18 am CDT), and like the second of Max's photos -- with the peaks barely visible -- at 11:27 UT (6:27 am CDT). Since the Sun doesn't rise in Houston until around 6:45 am CDT, these events should be visible (weather permitting), but the brightening sky may interfere a little with seeing the final disappearance of the peaks.

If you have a Windows PC, and should you be interested in making additional predictions of this sort, you might wish to consider the freeware Lunar Terminator Visualization Tool. It will give you a readout of what the sun angle was over a particular feature at the time of your observation, and can give you a list of past and future times when the sun angle would be the same. Using the sun angles mentioned above you should be able to predict exactly when, in future years, you will be able to observe sunrise and sunset over the Copernicus central peaks.

-- Jim Mosher


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
entropyorganizer
member


Reged: 01/26/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Two amazing views, actually three [Re: Jim Mosher]
      #2341874 - 04/21/08 09:46 AM

Jim, thanks for the informative post (and links). I will say I probably got lucky to watch the Copernican sunrise. The view started out just like the 19:27 George Tarsoudis picture. The moon was very high at the time and the detail through my APO refractor was simply stunning! I found a simple colongitude program on the net that I use and find helpful. It does not take the sun angle into consideration. It allows me to review my Antonon-Rukl Lunar Atlas in advance of a session. Orientation for this novice is important as I learn lunar features. Panning the terminator is where I like to stay. So many factors go into a pleasant session. I heard someone say that astronomical viewing is much like fishing. You never know what you are going to catch!

- Jim

-----------
TEC 140 f/7 APO
EM 200 T2


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Extra information
0 registered and 1 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  desertstars 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 309

Jump to

Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics