Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Other >> Science of Astronomy & Space exploration

Pages: 1
jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1341
Loc: Pasadena, CA
Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new
      #2113919 - 01/11/08 08:51 PM

This will be "cool". Or should I say "hot"?

http://messenger.jhuapl.edu

-S

--------------------
Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedaveModerator
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10466
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: jupiterzkool]
      #2114232 - 01/11/08 11:14 PM

Hot or cool, it will be great!

Will we have to wait until actual orbit is achieved before we get pictures of the poles?

--------------------

"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror


Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hm insulators
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 547
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: llanitedave]
      #2115186 - 01/12/08 12:26 PM

Fantastic! I'll have to keep my eye on this over the next couple of days!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1341
Loc: Pasadena, CA
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: llanitedave]
      #2115940 - 01/12/08 06:35 PM

Quote:

Hot or cool, it will be great!

Will we have to wait until actual orbit is achieved before we get pictures of the poles?




This is just a flyby. Orbit insertion comes at a later time (I forget exactly when).

-S

--------------------
Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Hermie
super member
*****

Reged: 04/20/05
Posts: 145
Loc: On the way to SYD
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: jupiterzkool]
      #2116570 - 01/13/08 12:01 AM

Messenger won't achieve Mercury orbit until March 2011:

http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/profile.cfm?Mission=MESSENGER

I am just amazed that anyone can launch a probe and miss the target by a mere 200km after nearly a year of flight. I know it has made corrections, but it is still a huge technical feat. It is also interesting that it takes 4 years to get down the gravity well to Mercury, while it only takes about 6 months to get something to Mars.

Looking forward to the pictures and the science that will follow.

--------------------
APM 105/650


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pedestal
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3070
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: Hermie]
      #2118856 - 01/14/08 12:14 AM

Quote:

. It is also interesting that it takes 4 years to get down the gravity well to Mercury, while it only takes about 6 months to get something to Mars.





I -think- the idea is to let gravity do the work, small rocket/less fuel=more payload.
Hubert

--------------------
www.smoggybottom.org





Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
groz
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 541
Loc: Duncan, BC
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: Hermie]
      #2120310 - 01/14/08 05:21 PM

Quote:

It is also interesting that it takes 4 years to get down the gravity well to Mercury, while it only takes about 6 months to get something to Mars.





It's all about the cost per kilo of payload delivered to destination. Mars is a bit of a unique destination in that it has an atmosphere, so, aero-breaking can be used to apply a significant amount of the delta-V to a vehicle headed there, which translates directly to 'less fuel carried'. The lifting capacity of the launch vehicle is fixed, so, every kilo of fuel you can get off the thing, means another kilo of payload that can be delivered to destination. Mars landers are yet a more special case, since they are going to do all the breaking in one quick go, they 'arrive' quickly. Mars orbiters using aero-breaking tend to arrive in the vicinity just as fast as a lander, but, then spend up to a year fussing with various passes thru the upper atmosphere lowering an orbit before the final orbit is achieved. Again, it's all about the most cost effective way to apply a required delta-V to the vehicle.

It is interesting to compare a mars lander with a lunar lander when doing the math. If you assume the same launch vehicle in both cases, then you have an all up launch weight maximum value, and an empty weight of the launcher. Load the launcher with enough fuel to achieve a Hollmann trajectory for mars, and call that X1. Conversly, load it with enough for a lunar trajectory, and call it X2. Max launch weight minus X = the payload enroute. For the Mars case, figure out the weight of a heat shield and a parachute, call that Y1. For the lunar vehicle, figure out how much fuel is required for a soft land, plus the weight of the rocket it'll be run thru during the process, all that Y2. Max - X1 - Y1 = Z1 where Z1 is the resultant final payload delivered to destination in the mars case. Max - X2 - Y2 = Z2, where Z2 is the resultant final payload delivered to the soft landing on the lunar surface. When you grind all the numbers, the surprising result is, Z1 is MUCH larger than Z2, an the conclusion is, for a given cost of launch using the specified vehicle, a far larger scientific payload can be soft landed on mars than can be soft landed on the moon.

For an orbiter, the math gets a little more complex, it's going to require some sort of propulsion for final orbit adjustments, but again, it can get a lot of the delta V reductions thru aerobraking, and in the end, the result is similar. For a given launch vehicle, a larger payload can be placed in a mars orbit than lunar orbit, by making use of aerobraking for a big chunk of the delta V adjustments. All of this assumes the use of chemical reaction rockets. Ion propulsion enroute changes the math some, but, as we see farther down, it dramatically increases the time component, which has other effects.

The tradeoff is ofc now time, doing multiple aerobraking passes will take time, and to maximize the payload, very large eliptical orbits will be achieved on the first pass, with a lowering of apogee on subsequent passes. When the target orbit is 'almost' achieved, then a firing of the motors to raise perigee back out of the atmosphere will finalize orbit insertion. This whole process can take a very long time.

This is a big part of the reason why the one-way robotic mission to mars has such a following in the scientific community today. The cost of such a mission is actually within the reach of the handouts, errr, I mean grants achievable today.

The economics change entirely if you start to include silliness such as return trips into the equation. If you do the math, and include 'sample return' into the initial specification, everything changes, and a lunar mission gets signficantly less expensive. If you add in 'life support consumables' enroute, then the time factor is no longer 'free', and costs run up exponentially yet again. Such missions quickly reach cost projections such that the grants can no longer absorb them, so they remain interesting diversions on the drawing board, but, not gonna happen anytime soon.

In the case of the mission in and around mercury, it's a one way robotic probe. There is no allowance for return fuel, and, time is not the big expense. The mission uses gravitational forces 'enroute' to modify trajectory for the most part, minimizing the fuel requirement, therefor allowing a maximum scientific payload. It's a tradeoff, will take longer to get the data, but, there will be more data once it all arrives. If there was a compelling reason to go look 'right now', more fuel could be loaded onto the probe, at the expense of scientific instruments, and it could take a less optimum, and much quicker, trajectory to 'go look'.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
imjeffp
Senior Space Cadet
*****

Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 4424
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: groz]
      #2122084 - 01/15/08 12:30 PM

So what you're saying is, it's relatively easy to get there, but not so easy to stop once you're there?

Orbital mechanics makes my head hurt.

--------------------
Blog
ST80 • AT80EDT/LXD650
ETX-90/DS-2000 • 10" LX200 Classic ("The Quarter-Meter Telescope at the Heritage Park Observatory")
SPC900NC • DMK21AF04 • Digital Rebel XT


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jupiterzkool
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 1341
Loc: Pasadena, CA
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: imjeffp]
      #2123185 - 01/15/08 08:48 PM

The Messenger Project has started releasing images.

http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/gallery/sciencePhotos/index.php

--------------------
Scott G. Edgington, Planetary Scientist
Cassini-Huygens: Mission to Saturn & Titan
Yes, Asia, John Wetton Fan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
*****

Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10022
Loc: Chaville, France
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: jupiterzkool]
      #2123891 - 01/16/08 08:04 AM

I've seen sharper Moon images in the Lunie Bin

Is it me, the photo processing applied or is this hemisphere smoother than what we saw on the Mariner images, and with more ray craters?

--------------------
Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Shadowalker
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 2950
Loc: Carriere, MS, USA
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: matt]
      #2124096 - 01/16/08 10:24 AM

Well, looks like the moon. But we're seeing things never before seen. That is amazing to me.

An aside: I saw the launch of Messenger while on business at the Cape a few years back. Nice to see this followup.

This is going to be an interesting mission!

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dan Luna
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 696
Loc: UK
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #2124676 - 01/16/08 03:27 PM

What a nice looking planet. It's wonderful to be able to see the first images of previously unknown landscapes.

The close up released Jan 16 was still from 11,000 miles away, so there should be plenty more detail to come yet. I expect the imaging team are being very careful though to make sure there are no alien cities visible on the images before releasing them to public gaze.

--------------------

"This is no world for men," he said. "And yet in a way - it appeals."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
llanitedaveModerator
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 10466
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: Dan Luna]
      #2124853 - 01/16/08 04:50 PM

Quote:

I expect the imaging team are being very careful though to make sure there are no alien cities visible on the images before releasing them to public gaze.




It's not the cities that bring unwanted attention so much as the amusement parks.

--------------------

"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye) 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror


Next Project: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pedestal
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3070
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: llanitedave]
      #2124957 - 01/16/08 05:51 PM

Very interesting: For no good reason, I had expected the surface to be less cratered than the Moon.
Hubert

--------------------
www.smoggybottom.org





Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Shadowalker
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 2950
Loc: Carriere, MS, USA
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: Pedestal]
      #2124981 - 01/16/08 06:00 PM

Oh wow... Follow the link. A whole new world we're exploring!

--------------------
Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David Knisely
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6778
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th new [Re: matt]
      #2125137 - 01/16/08 07:05 PM

Quote:

I've seen sharper Moon images in the Lunie Bin

Is it me, the photo processing applied or is this hemisphere smoother than what we saw on the Mariner images, and with more ray craters?




Those were long-range images before close approach. The new ones are *incredibly* sharp and detailed. Older craters and the overall landscape looks almost "softened" in form when compared to the crisp sharp outlines of the newer craters and the numerous secondary impact craters. I guess sitting for century after century at only 36 million miles from the sun has take its toll on the rocky landscape. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rustynailz911
super member


Reged: 01/30/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Nova Scotia
Re: Mercury Encounter on Jan 14th [Re: David Knisely]
      #2352761 - 04/26/08 07:42 AM

The pics are amazing always cool to see another world up close like that mercury is a interesting planet which only the biggest scopes can even see so for us guys without 48 inch reflectors it is amazing.Who could have figured we would witness a massive avalanche on Mars i didnt think i would see anthing like that im my lifetime.36 million miles from the sun hope they put some SPF 1 billion on that probe

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Extra information
0 registered and 0 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  llanitedave 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 504

Jump to

Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics