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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2367059 - 05/02/08 04:23 PM Attachment (124 downloads)

And finally the almost complete OTA...I had to cut and paste various changes from dozens of drawings to just get this far...

Hope you enjoy...

Mirror back plate is 26.5" in diameter and 0.75" thick, lightened with milled holes that do not go through...they were originally hexagons, but we could not get anyone to bid on doing that work.

The spacing between the primary and secondary is 31.5 inches

I've got a little work still on the secondary design, but have taken Mike Jone's recommendation and gone with a tilt/tip a 90 degrees, around a fixed corner ball.

Spiders are Carbon Fiber/Aramid/CF sandwich in the hopes that should the carbon crack, the Kevlar will hold everything in place.

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2367090 - 05/02/08 04:37 PM

Hi Preston, your mirror cell is quite different from what I am doing, specifically I am trying to make sure that the centre hole never touches the baffle.

I am guessing that this is because your mirror is not a plano back, hence only 6 supports as well?

Thanks ,
Jason


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2367152 - 05/02/08 04:55 PM

Hi Jason,

Our mirror is a conical with an outer edge thickness of about 0.75" and a central hole thickness of 2". Hole diameter is 4.5"

The diameter of the flat on the back is about 7 inches and the 6 leveling pads will rest there with the Mirror support tube going through the Mirror's hole and contacting the mirror with a nylon O-ring at the center of gravity of the mirror in cross section.

This will restrain the mirror from any lateral movement and not put any uneven strain on the mounting location.

Not shown in the rendering is the threaded locking ring that will retain the mirror to the collimation plate. The area that will contact the mirror will be cork lined and little if any torque will be applied.

The baffle will adjusted independantly from the Mirror tube.

This should keep collimation very well, as I've used a similar system on my 10" RC "The Unfinished Telescope", by Paul Van Slyke. I learned a lot about what to and not to do from working on that scope.

How is your build coming along?

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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jasonharris
super member


Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2367186 - 05/02/08 05:06 PM

That makes sense and is along the lines of what I have seen with conical mirrors - which I wish I had at one point to simplify mine!

I will machine some of the spider support today and my cell will be cast ready for pickup on wednesday I will update my thread then, dont want to hijack yours.

Your is looking really god btw!

Jason


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The bear
professor emeritus
***

Reged: 02/11/08
Posts: 727
Loc: rushville, indiana
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2367198 - 05/02/08 05:12 PM

Robo Scope indeed i like the simple but effective design of this scope looks very strong.
doc

--------------------
Longitude -85.42786 Latitude 39.59153
when all else fails use duct tape "works for me"



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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: jasonharris]
      #2367243 - 05/02/08 05:34 PM

Thanks Jason

Some of the details that are not yet shown include the plate for mounting to the tracking mount.

Most of the OTA's that I've seen using Zero expansion carbon fiber tubes, then break the reason for using the carbon tubing by solidly joining the Rear support to the mid ring with a solid aluminum mounting plate...

With any temperature change, that aluminum mounting plate is pushing and pulling constantly as the temperature varies on the 2 plates that it attaches. It also is putting stress on the truss tubes unevenly and changing the spacing between the primary and secondary...

We will use and aluminum mount that mounts solidly to the rear plate and has a precision linear rail and car that attaches to the mid ring. That way any movement due to temperature changes will cause the rail to move smoothly back and forth in the precision car and not cause any change in mirror spacing.

Doc I sure hope that it's up to the task of staying in collmation over long periods of time...

Originally I was going to build the OTA out of steel 2 inch square tubing...but that would have been much TOO heavy and temp changes would still have been an issue, though less than aluminum...I modeled the fisrt one in balsa and was very impressed with just how stiff it really was.

For a 1/4 scale model a load of 5 pounds on one corner caused a deflection of only .005"

I'm looking forward to doing a similar test to the assembled OTA without the mirrors...don't want to chance damaging them.

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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The bear
professor emeritus
***

Reged: 02/11/08
Posts: 727
Loc: rushville, indiana
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2367256 - 05/02/08 05:39 PM

i model my stuff always something about holding it in your hands makes it real plus i work out all the build in my head better this way. its nice to have drawings/renderings to get the idea but i like the feel. often times like now i am building things in my head then often when the design is final i just go ahead and build them if they are simple enough.
doc

--------------------
Longitude -85.42786 Latitude 39.59153
when all else fails use duct tape "works for me"



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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: The bear]
      #2367290 - 05/02/08 05:57 PM

Your right Doc, and this thing gets quite difficult to get some things into place...like moving those darn tubes that are not at 90 degree angles, bout drove me crazy.

I ended up making a full scale model of 2/3 of the OTA to make sure that the tubes stayed out of the light path.

And I'm still going to wait for the big machined pieces to arrive to assemble and again check the tube lengths before cutting up that $800 in Carbon Fiber tubes...

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2367699 - 05/02/08 09:07 PM

Ok...let's move to the future...

I ask Mike Jones at first to design a focal reducer...which he started...but, the group wanted a field flatner...

If you were building this scope...would you want a focal reducer or field flatner...

and Mike, please explain your views and the proposed designs...

Mike are you out there???

Best Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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Mike I. Jones
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1102
Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2367793 - 05/02/08 09:50 PM

Hey Preston!
Yep, I be out here, enjoying your posts. The scope sure looks good - first time I've seen all your CAD work as well. I've only seen the detail on the back end until now.

Whether to go reducer or flattener is up to your team's desires regarding FOV. A focal reducer is the more difficult of the two designs, as it tends to aggravate the field curvature and introduce aberrations, requiring S-FPL53 or similar glasses to keep the aberrations under control. The baffle design I did for you is optimized for the basic RC mirrors and field coverage you wanted. The wider field of the focal reducer renders these baffle designs inadequate and allows stray light paths to focus out in the corners.

If you really wanted a wider field for the same camera, I'd personally prefer to investigate a faster, lower amplification secondary/baffle option and clean up the imagery with a 2-element field flattener/corrector rather than try to use a focal reducer on the existing secondary. But that's a lot of extra unplanned optical and mechanical work you and the team probably don't want to get into.

I do feel that flattening the RC field and sharpening up the edge and corner imagery is a valuable corrector option. Your RC field curves toward the secondary, and the 2-element and 3-element correctors I did for it make a nice flat field with 10-15um images over the 0.38-0.95um spectral band. The only noticeable difference between the 2 and 3 element correctors is distortion. The 2-element design has about 0.5% positive distortion, while the 3-element design has <0.001% distortion. The 2-element design obviously costs less to have manufactured, so the trade is cost vs. distortion. The distortion vs. field angle curve can be curve-fitted with a polynomial, so the distortion can be compensated for in post processing with minimal image degradation in the edges and corners.

If you want, I can post up the 2 and 3 element flattener designs, but you get all your pictures up first. I'm like everyone else, waiting to see what you've actually gotten built so far.

S'gonna be a good scope for sure.
Mike

--------------------
56 mirrors, lenses, 16" f/6 Newt, 6" f/10 refractor, TOA-130S, Tinsley 5" f/15 Mak, 6" f/4 RFT, Coronado PST. Still to build: 24" f/10 Modified Dall-Kirkham, 10" f/26 Mak, 8" f/12 apo, spectrohelioscope, Herrig, Schupmann, and a new design you'll like.


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2368006 - 05/02/08 11:34 PM

Hi Mike, Thanks so much for your kind responce...

Let us get this beast up and in place and then we will go forward with the flattner or focal reducer...

Very Best Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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Sky Captain
Scope Builder
*****

Reged: 11/07/04
Posts: 5743
Loc: Seattle Washington
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... new [Re: PrestonE]
      #2368087 - 05/03/08 12:19 AM

Quote:

I can say that Speedy Metal was $750 for everything and Jim $1100...so we went with Speedy.





Yeah, Jim gets his metal from Metal SuperMarkets because they are just down the road, so they are not the cheapest around. That link you gave me to Speedy is a great one and I may pick up some aluminum plate from there for a modification to my current project.

--------------------
Equipment Overload!
Kerry.



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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2369820 - 05/03/08 10:50 PM

Ok I worked on some of the finer details today and will post a Rendering tomorrow...Back plate and collimation plate with connecting hardware...to check for fit...Thank G it does fit and the dimensions are correct

Also worked on the secondary holder in CF...to be seen if it works out...otherwise in aluminum...

Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2381538 - 05/08/08 10:20 PM Attachment (77 downloads)

Hi Guys...Kerry better known as "Sky Captain" was kind enough after helping us source a fabricator for these parts to go over and take some pictures.

This is one of 3 rings. Two will be fastened together for the mid ring and the 3rd used if the Carbon Fiber upper ring does not work out.

The rings are 3/8" thick, 22 inch ID and 27 inch OD. Lightening holes are milled down to 0.100" thickness remaining.

Regards

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)

Edited by PrestonE (05/09/08 09:02 AM)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2382319 - 05/09/08 09:06 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

Ok, Here are all 3 rings leaning up against the wall.

You can see the 3 holes of attaching the tube ball catch blocks in the spaces that do not have the lightening holes.

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2382333 - 05/09/08 09:15 AM Attachment (59 downloads)

And here is the CNC screen shot of what the machine is going to cut. Notice the little white round end mill end offset in the smaller green circle within the green larger circle.

This is the roughing operation and shows in the next photo with the small roughing holes being machined first.

Roughing all of the holes and then going back to do the finish reduces the amount of warpage due to releasing the built up strain in the metal more evenly.

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2382347 - 05/09/08 09:22 AM Attachment (65 downloads)

Here they have milled out the center hole, the 3 holes around it for the squaring back plate...(to be able to square the focuser to the optical path)

Further out the 3 square holes for the fans, and finally the start of roughing the lightening holes.

This plate is 0.750 inches thick by 27 inches in diameter. Center hole is 4.500 inches in diameter and all of the lightening leave 0.125 inches of final thickness to the back plate.

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2382362 - 05/09/08 09:33 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

And finally, cutting out the circle in the back of the square hole for the fan to blow through.

Kerry is going to try to get back over there today to get pics of the finished back plate and maybe catch the collimation plate being machined...

Hopefully I get everything next week, but I'm leaving town for our 15th wedding anniversery on Thursday and won't get back until late Monday the 19th...you think she'll let me work on the scope, instead of going to Dallas???

Best Regards,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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PrestonE
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston,Texas
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2382586 - 05/09/08 11:19 AM Attachment (78 downloads)

Ok, now we are cooking. Mike Jones provided the baffold design below.

I really like the tapered primary baffold, as this really helps with avoiding reflections of the inside of a straight piece of tubing...

Way to go Mike.

Thanks So Much,

Preston

--------------------
A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)


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Sky Captain
Scope Builder
*****

Reged: 11/07/04
Posts: 5743
Loc: Seattle Washington
Re: 20 inch RC Robitic Build...a TEAM Effort.... [Re: PrestonE]
      #2382651 - 05/09/08 11:54 AM

Looking good Preston .

Hey, when I was at the shop yesterday I saw the three rings, but noticed in the cad drawings only two being used...the middle one and the top one for the secondary holder. Whats the third one for?

--------------------
Equipment Overload!
Kerry.



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