1965healey
Enginurse
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Quote:
Here's a direct link to the map: Frost Depth Map
And here's a link to the beginning of the publication: NOAA Manual
It deals with the installation of Geodetic Bench Marks.
Don
Boy that's some light reading, generally I like to see things a bit more technically oriented. 
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1965Healey (Karen)
Woodlawn Lake Observatory
Celestron CPC 800/FT MIcro/APT Wedge
SV NHNG 80mm #0261/CG5-GT
Losmandy rails/rings
Starizona CWeight system
Celestron Neximage
Sony a100 DSLR/ZigView S2
Meade DS60's w/Autostar (2)
Meade LPI/Meade DSI-C/DSI ProII
750cc Honda Shadow Spirit (Thanks Dad!)
1965 Austin Healey 3000 MKIII
A little too much money and NO SELF CONTROL!
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Manny Myles
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 1951
Loc: Flatlandia
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Cement is the glue that bonds it all together.
If you add the extra Portland to this mix, put that in your mixing device first and liquify it, otherwise it mixes in terribly and really won't be mixed in evenly.
If you use the liquified Portland as part of the water for the Quickcrete its thoroughly mixed with out any extra effort.
You might even want to rent a mixer form the helpfull hardware store of your choice to speed this process up.
A mixer is far more fun than a Goon Spoon.
Quickcrete is not really quick, as there is nothing quick about it other than all the ingredients are in one bag and needing to add water and needing to stir it all together.
One verticle rebar per corner and one horizontal per side set in from all sides at 6-8 inches will be plenty of steel to hold it together.
To set the bottom of the hole rebar, first drop in 6"s of mixed concrete, then drop in the steel and postion where you want it then cover it up with more mix, then as the level fills stick in the verticle steel in the corners where the horizontal bars are. This way there is no worry of the steel coming in contact with the dirt at the bottom of the hole, keep the steel a few inches shorter than the hole is wide and make sure the steel will fit the form at the top of the pier.
Fill to 6"s from the top and add the rest of the steel.
It does not have to be tied at the corners.
If you feel like adding more horizontal steel at the half way point or at any other level as you fill the hole, toss them in.
You should also not pour this concrete till the bottom of the hole is dry, nothing like building on mud.
Either clean the hole out till you hit dry dirt or wait till it is dry and then compact this dried mud or just use more concrete to replace it, can't go wrong with more concrete.
SO just how deep is this piers bottom going to be in realtion to how much is sticking above the ground?
m2
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1029
Loc: AR
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Personally, I have not seen frost penetration nearly as deep as the chart predicts for my area (about 15 inches). Most winters it is less than six inches. The worst I saw was in the early 1980's with about 12 inches in shady spots.
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?
Observing since 1966
Messier Cert #898
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Good Mornin, Yall.
Thank you, Manny and everyone else for the help.
Quote:
Boy that's some light reading, generally I like to see things a bit more technically oriented.
I know it! The 'Curious George goes to the movies' book my boys have has more depth than that did.
Actually I tried reading over it slowly and carefully and got a nosebleed and a weird eye twitch. 
Quote:
Fill to 6"s from the top and add the rest of the steel.
It does not have to be tied at the corners.
If you feel like adding more horizontal steel at the half way point or at any other level as you fill the hole, toss them in.
So, I dont need to make a rebar box within my box, right?
I was going to dump some concrete into my holes then put rebar into it about 2" from the ground, then stand as much rebar as i can into my main hole once its 2" (or 6" you say i think) above the ground and try to 'fil it up' with rebar.
Quote:
SO just how deep is this piers bottom going to be in realtion to how much is sticking above the ground?
I plan on doing the pier about 2' down If I can and then have it probaly three to three and a half above ground, so it will come just barely above my floor.
Its sunny and beautiful right now, Im trying to give the mud a little bit of time to get some sun since it rained all day and most of the night here before I start digging on my hole again.
um.
Does my box have to be beautiful and perfect?
I just noticed that its not exactly perfectly touching on all sides. Theres a tiny gap here and there where the wood weve bought isnt exactly straight.
Once I anchor it in and have it level, it will be good enough to form a square. Anyone see a problem with that?
I dont think theres enough of a gap for anyhting to leak out, but you can see the gap nonetheless.
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Ok.
After school we went to Lowe's and got 20 pcs. of #4 43 (or 48)" rebar, 20 pcs. of 18" rebar, 19 bags of Sacrete (I was worried the van would collapse with anymore!) and Ive spent the last hour and a half digging out my hole deeper and smashing it flat and level with my tamping pad thingie thats 10x10" and pretty heavy.
Im down about 21"'s and Ive packed it so hard if you fell in it youd crack your nugget.
Now im forced to quit for the day 'cos ive got to do the Mothers Day thing with the woman that actually gave birth to me. Since my sister and I have lives, we all usually meet the day after a holiday to see each other.
Id rather work on my holes, but eating at the Outback is something I cant argue with.
Heres a pic. I wished it showed my hard work of smashing, smashing, and even more shashing down with the tamping pad thingie. I think I drove the main hole down about anothet 2" with that thing.
I also bored out my holes more with the auger to get all the extra dirt and mud that packed it in.
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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Digital Don
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 804
Loc: Manteno
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Boy that's some light reading, generally I like to see things a bit more technically oriented.
We aim to please! 
Don
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Manny Myles
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 1951
Loc: Flatlandia
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Include a few rebars into the post holes and have them overlap the verticle corner rebars.
Wiring the rebars into a cage is sometimes an excersise in futility , gets very hard to manage and then you have to pick this up and set it in a hole and adds very little strength, long as the rebars are very close to each other where they are supposed to be, all should be good.
Rebar 2"s from the bottom won't do much good as bottom 2"s will probably never crack off your pier, having them inset further in gives them something larger to hold onto should something crack.
m2
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak
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mikey cee
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 2073
Loc: bellevue ne.
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With all that rebar don't forget to leave room for the concrete!!    Mike
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Mike 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957).
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 13183
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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Leave a couple of inches of concrete cover for all your reinforcing (any embeds really). Don't push the bars into the dirt and pour concrete around them. Rebar exposed to the moist dirt will begin to corrode, which will then wick up into the concrete, further corroding reinforcing, making the steel swell and crack the concrete, etc. It might take a long time, but keep to the 2" cover rule and it will likely last foreve. 
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Thanks yall.
I think im ready to start pouring tommorrow.
Im concerned about the weather.
Its suppose to be warm and pretty tommorrow, but rain and thunderstorms wednesday, do you think the concrete would be okay if finished tommorrow, or should I just wait for a couple of days of dry pretty weather?
I want to pour it tommorrow, if I can muster up enough manliness to go after 20 more bags of concrete, ive got 19 now, but I dont want to risk bad weather having a negative affect on my concrete square.
Can I build it and just cover it with a tarp or something?
Im also scared of running out of concrete half way or almost done and run out.
If that happened, could I just wet it real good and go after more, like cover the top with water, and go get more?
What would happen If I built up as much as I could, ran out of concrete, and went to get more. If I came back to a semi hard, or even hard block of concrete, would I just be building on top of a slab with more, or would it be able to soak in to whats already there?
Ive got about 32x32" hole (dont ask me how it got bigger, it did!) with four holes going down another foot and a half.
The main hole is about 22" into the ground, and needs to come up somewhere around 4'.
I dont think the wifes poor ole minivan can take more than 20 bags of 80lb concrete at once.
Oh, also...What about my drilling another 5th hole right in the middle of my main hole?
Think that would do anything to help, or possibly even hurt?
Ive got room in that hole for 4 or 5 more holes If i wanted to. Making it like swiss cheese bad?
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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cocobolo
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/27/07
Posts: 1550
Loc: british columbia, canada
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WM, looks like you have almost half your concrete you will need. I don't think you will need to add any more portland cement to the bags of pre-mix you have now. That concrete is usually rated at 3,000 p.s.i. after a 28 day cure, which will hold a heck of a lot more than any scope you may ever put on it. And all the time concrete is kept moist, it will continue to cure almost indefinitely. That is why concrete cured underwater is incredibly strong.
And sorry Manny, but I stick with the 2" distance for the rebar, it's right out of the code book. And you should tie the bar together.
Keith
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Manny Myles
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 1951
Loc: Flatlandia
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You can run out of concrete at the halfway point without fear of any future problems and come back the next day week or month. Long as the verticle rebar sticks out of the pier you can keep adding to the height of it.
High rise concrete buildings are built this way and they are not falling down,,, yet.
They pour a floor and keep adding the next floor and just keep going with rebar holding it all together, if you need to leave for more leave the last of the mix really rough so the next batch will have something to help grab onto along with the rebar.
m2
As for the 2" rule "code" is not what I used to build with but blueprints from the major oil companies projects I got to build, sorry bad habit I guess from doing them projects Guess I should email them and tell them its not "code" I'm sure they will listen <G>.
Either way it's not going to fall apart.
No more holes in the bottom otherwise just dig it all out and fill to brim.
There are also lots of things he "should" be doing but by possibly passing, tieing the rebar is one that is easily passed .
Tieing the rebar only holds the rebar till the concrete holds it, long as the steel is where its supposed to be over lapped at the junctions is all it needs to be.
Other things he "should" be doing is a soil compaction test usually done by a soil testing comapany to check and if the soil this is resting on is hard enough to support it.
It "should" be deeper as well to hold this monolith(ML) from leaning when the soil gets soft and wet, there is one very low side to the ML, the other is way higher, I can see the possiblity of it leaning in the future, maybe not tommorow but in time it can happen.
He "should" be adding soil in compacted lifts after the pour to help support the ML on the low sides.
He "should" be having the excavation inspected (maybe his permit includes this feature)prior to pouring this to see if it meets code for what he's doing.
WM , please ignore my ramblings, you are doing just fine<G>
m2
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak
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cocobolo
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/27/07
Posts: 1550
Loc: british columbia, canada
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No need to get upset Manny, he's only going to hold up a scope that weighs but a few pounds. Not building an oil refinery.
The last major concrete pour I was involved with was a mega dam up in the interior of B.C. The concrete was supplied by an aerial system which ran 24 hours a day for several years.
It is quite true that he can stop half way through this pour as long as there is sufficient rebar protruding from below. But it's less than one cubic yard, so do it all at one time.
I expect some of the rebar you use in the oil refineries is well over an inch in size, I know there was several miles of 1 1/2" in the dam pour. In that instance, I can quite well see that you may be required to leave 6" of concrete outside the bar. And in any event, it is also quite likely possible that the residential building codes differ between "Flatlandia", Kentucky and Canada!!
Keith
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Manny Myles
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 1951
Loc: Flatlandia
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I'm not getting upset, too early in the AM for that
<G>=Grins not gritting teeth.
m2
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak
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mikey cee
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 2073
Loc: bellevue ne.
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I don't know why everybodies getting "upset" here. After all isn't CN basically all about overkill and screwups??  Mike
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Mike 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957).
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Thanks alot, everyone.
Well, I spent all day from 8 this morning when i woke the boys up to run to Lowe's til just now, but the Boss and I got the dob slab done!  
It took a total of 51 80lb bags but were happy with the finished product! The wife even came home from work early to help me! What a woman!
When i ran back to Lowe's for 20 more bags and 15 more pieces of 18" #4 rebar, she did 4 or 5 bags herself!
So, its as full as can be of rebar.
We did a few bags, laid more 18" pieces like a tic tac toe board, and kept staking the 43" pieces of rebar within that.
We ended up with about 20 pieces of 18" rebar vertically, 15 pieces, laid across each other, and then about 12 more pieces of 43" rebar like birthday candles, but some had to lie kinda corner to corner as we got higher.
Heres some pics.
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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She took the trowel away and never gave it back!
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Its level!
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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We used nothing but a wheelbarrow and the 'goon spoon'.
Were tough like that!
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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WidowMaker
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Now that its done, its suppose to rain maybe tonight, for sure tommorrow. Should I cover it with something?
Put something over top of it to keep the rain away?
I fear a torrential pour could poke little water dents in it.
Whats the chances of that?
Leave it alone?
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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