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Anonymous
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Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: RandyR]
      #235575 - 10/29/04 05:32 PM

I think you asked a great question. I’ve been going back and forth on what scope I should buy when the times comes. I can only afford one and I’m more interested in everything not just the planets.

I would like to ask a question also. Light pollution!! I live in a heavily light polluted area. White to red on the pollution scale, my dark site is at best “Green” I know large aperture increases this affect. Therefore, will a 6” prove better for me in my case? I think I remember reading somewhere that a large aperture scope may not be the best for this situation.

Thanks!


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erik
telescope surgeon
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Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 24019
Loc: Hawaii 19 N lat -155 Long.
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: ]
      #235717 - 10/29/04 08:54 PM

in my opinion, that is somewhat of a myth. a larger scope will ALWAYS show at least as much, and almost always more, than a smaller scope, regardless of light pollution. what a bigger scope does under light polluted skies, is brighten up the background sky, which may be less visually appealing. however, it also brightens the object that you're looking at, so the added resolution of the bigger scope allows it to show more. sometimes with a bigger scope you can also use more magnification (on certain objects and with certain apertures) which enables you to dim the background sky with magnification. lastly, you can always stop the scope down if you want a more asthetically pleasing view. always get the biggest scope that you can afford and will still use...

--------------------
-Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor



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Anonymous
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Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: erik]
      #235804 - 10/29/04 10:10 PM

Thanks for the info Erik! BtW what is stopping the scope down?

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mirage
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 693
Loc: central texas
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: ]
      #235886 - 10/29/04 11:56 PM

'Stopping down' a telescope is an easy way to make a large-aperture 'fast' telescope perform like a small-aperture 'slow' telescope.

Speed refers to the ratio of focal length to aperture. Smaller f-ratios gather a lot more light for a given focal length and are called are 'fast', while larger f-ratios gather a lot less light for a given focal length and are called 'slow' - terminology from conventional photography which describes to how quickly a piece of film becomes exposed.

F-ratio has several other effects, too, but one is of particular concern in telescopes: 'faster' telescopes offer a wider field of view at the cost of focal length, which makes them more sensitive to the quality of their optics. That's because shorter focal-length optics bend the light path more, and thus amplify the effects of any flaws they may have. Shorter focal-length telescopes also require shorter focal-length eyepieces for a given magnifaction, so it's a double whammy at that. That's why people with high-quality 'fast' telescopes often have the very-highest quality eyepieces: they really need them in order to get the best performance out their instruments.

That's also why the highest-quality specialised planetary telescopes are often 'slow' designs, f/8 or greater. These telescopes have very long focal lengths for their aperture, and thus trade a reduced field-of-view for better optical quality at higher magnifications.

It's important to remember, though, that aperture still generally rules - a 'faster' telescope of the same optical quality and focal length will generally show more detail when conditions allow it, because its larger aperture both gathers more light and has greater resolving power. Since the limiting factor in most telescope designs is aperture per dollar, f/ratio 'speed' is generally used more as a measure of focal length in astronomy, as opposed to conventional photography where the focal length per dollar is the limiting factor and it's used to measure aperture.

How does all this relate to 'stopping down' a telescope? It comes from another photography term, f-stops, which are opaque masks put over a large aperture with a smaller hole therein, effectively 'slowing' the camera to a larger f/ratio. With 'fast' telescopes, one can create an aperture mask - a piece of cardboard, wood, metal, or other opaque material with a smaller hole in it - to put over the full aperture of the telescope and effectively reduce its aperture.

Basically, by reducing the large telescope's aperture while its focal length stays the same, one increases its f/ratio to match the performance of a equivalently-smaller-aperture 'slower' telescope of the same focal length.

People do this for two reasons:

Firstly, the 'slower' design is popularly misunderstood to offer increased resolution on brighter objects where light-gathering isn't a primary concern. This is comes from the misconception that 'slower' telescopes always offer better resolution at the expense of field-of-view, which is actually only true for a fixed aperture (where the 'slower' design increases the focal length and thus improves optical performance) rather than a fixed focal length (where the 'slower' design instead decreases aperture and actually reduces resolution).

Secondly, smaller apertures are less suceptible to the effects of 'seeing' - turbulent pockets of air high in the atmosphere, similar to a mirage on a hot summer day - and thus often offer what people consider a more aesthetically-pleasing view. These is because larger apertures can capture more variety across these fixed-size ripples of air and thus show more change across their area, while a smaller-aperture telescope generally only picks up a smaller portion of a single ripple and thus sees less change across its area. Some people argue that the larger-aperture image, while showing more distortion due to 'seeing', is actually showing at least as high a quality of view as the smaller-aperture telescope: the smaller telescope just obscures more atmospheric distortion due to its inherent reduced resolution.

In whatever case, many people with large-aperture 'fast' telescopes prefer high-magnifaction viewing of bright planets to be 'stopped-down' through aperture masks to simulate smaller-aperture 'slow' telescopes. Many other people argue that large-aperture 'fast' telescopes always give a better view than the 'stopped-down' image, regardless. I suggest you experiment and come to your own conclusion: it's largely a matter of personal aesthetics, similar to some audiophiles preferring the 'warm' sound of lower-performing vaccuum-tube amplifiers over higher-performing solid-state designs.

--------------------
imber stellarum 10x50 binoculars

architectural advisor
friends of the austin planetarium


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: mirage]
      #236413 - 10/30/04 05:27 PM

Thanks For the reply. I had to read it a few time to take it all in. Nevertheless, I got it

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erik
telescope surgeon
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Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 24019
Loc: Hawaii 19 N lat -155 Long.
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: ]
      #236460 - 10/30/04 07:19 PM

it's true that stopping down a scope using an off axis mask will generally give poorer views with less detail than the full aperture. but a multi aperture mask will allow you to have the benefits of using the best part of the mirror (away from the edges), getting rid of the diffraction spikes from the spider and mirror clips, and still maintaining most of the aperture of the scope. for example, when i made a multi aperture mask for my 8" scope, i cut 4 holes out, each 80mm in size. therefore, i was getting most of the aperture. since i installed a curved vane, i no longer use the mask, but it works very well on the planets if you don't like diffraction spikes. it can also help if your mirror has a turned edge or other zones near the edges...

--------------------
-Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor



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Stelios
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Reged: 10/04/03
Posts: 1356
Loc: West Hills, CA
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: mirage]
      #236722 - 10/31/04 01:24 AM

My experience with stopping is worth retelling to throw some practical counterpoint to the theoretical discourses here.

My wife was looking at Jupiter (a few months ago) through my C6-RGT. As she was looking I put the (Celestron provided) on-axis aperture mask on the scope, changing in effect a 6" f/8 refractor to a 4.5" f/10.67.

My wife (who was clueless as to what I was doing, absorbed in Jupiter) suddenly exclaimed "What did you do??? MUCH sharper!"

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APM/TMB 115/805 APO
9.25S - GT
Naglers: 17T4, 13T6, 3-6 zoom
UWANs: 28mm, 7mm
Pentax 10XW, 10mm Radian (shootout coming!!!)
Misc EP: 50mm Parks, 42mm GSO, 2x TV Barlow


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MMICKELSAdministrator
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Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 25182
Loc: The Land of Shake and Bake
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: Stelios]
      #236727 - 10/31/04 01:33 AM

Stelios, your wife had better contrast, but less resolution in her Jupiter view.

--------------------
Mark


"The only thing wrong with immortality is that it tends to go on forever."

Herb Caen






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mirage
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 693
Loc: central texas
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: erik]
      #237173 - 10/31/04 04:26 PM

Quote:

A multi aperture mask will allow you to have the benefits of using the best part of the mirror (away from the edges), getting rid of the diffraction spikes from the spider and mirror clips, and still maintaining most of the aperture of the scope.




That's true. If you remember the Personal Meter-Class telescope I described over in your Anyone ever make this design? thread, it's pretty much the same idea. The only difference is that, by eliminating the 'masked' areas of the large primary and instead using three smaller spherical mirrors, it could be a lot cheaper, lighter, and more rigid than a huge 1-meter parabolic mirror.

--------------------
imber stellarum 10x50 binoculars

architectural advisor
friends of the austin planetarium


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
Re: New Member - Burning Question new [Re: mirage]
      #237252 - 10/31/04 06:57 PM

Quote:

That's true. If you remember the Personal Meter-Class telescope I described over in your Anyone ever make this design? thread, it's pretty much the same idea. The only difference is that, by eliminating the 'masked' areas of the large primary and instead using three smaller spherical mirrors, it could be a lot cheaper, lighter, and more rigid than a huge 1-meter parabolic mirror.




Any volunteers to collimate that sucker?

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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mirage
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 693
Loc: central texas
Re: New Member - Burning Question [Re: Rusty]
      #237683 - 11/01/04 11:11 AM

Quote:

Any volunteers to collimate that sucker?




Yeah really! There's a reason why I don't see myself attempting the design before I have a lot of free time on my hands to work out that bit...



I'm interested to learn about different off-axis reflector collimation techniques now that Orion's bringing the idea a bit more mainstream - the PM-Class design is essentially a variation on the same concept. I think getting three different mirrors to match up into a single coherent image will be the greater challenge, though.

--------------------
imber stellarum 10x50 binoculars

architectural advisor
friends of the austin planetarium


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