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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12885
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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For two weeks in a row, I've done drift tests on two different stars that are almost exactly on the celestial equator. I used a stopwatch to time the interval between the appearance of the star on one side of the eyepiece field, and its disappearance on the other. I was careful to only count the tests where the stars actually drifted across the center of the FOV, and my individual tests were consequently pretty consistent.
The two stars I used were Struve 1757 in Virgo (a pretty double of 2 arcseconds separation, listed in Burnham as magnitudes 7.5 and 8.5) and a 6.5 magnitude star slightly south of Lambda Ophiuchi (a.k.a Marfik, another pretty pair with a 1.5" separation, curiously not mentioned by Burnham).
I tested 6 eyepieces, 5 of them also using a barlow lens. Part of the reason for the test was to get a more accurate calculation of the power of the barlow -- it's listed as 2x, I ended up measuring it as 2.1x.
The eyepieces were:
32mm TV Plossl 25mm No-name Kellner 12.5mm UO Orthoscopic, the "volcano top" 9mm "Astrola" Plossl 8mm Hyperion 2.5mm Nagler Type 6
I was planning on doing a fairly general review of my subjective impressions of each eyepiece, but instead, I got some unexpected results measuring the fields of view.
Using the drift test to measure the actual field of view, I then multiplied by the magnification to get the apparent field of view. This is simply the inverse of what is often recommended as a means of finding the actual field of view from the listed apparent one.
The Plossls, Kellner and Orthoscopic had measured apparent FOVs that were not too far off from those commonly listed. In fact, they measured slightly narrower.
The TV 32mm Plossl showed an AFOV of about 47.5 degrees, the Kellner about 38.2 degrees, the Orthoscopic about 39.7, and the Astrola plossl came in at 49.9 degrees.
However, the Hyperion in all tests far exceeded its rated 68 degree AFOV. In fact, my measurements clustered tightly at an average of 76 degrees! And optical aberrations were far smaller than they were in any of the narrower-field eyepieces.
When I first did the test last week, I simply didn't believe it. I waited until tonight and redid it, thinking the first one was a fluke. However, the measurements repeated. My 8mm Hyperion seems to be a 76-degree eyepiece.
And the Nagler? Strangely, it didn't make the advertised 82 degrees. In fact, I "only" got 78 degrees out of it! They were a very good 78 degrees -- I saw no change in the star image from edge to center. It simply didn't quite make the advertised field diameter. That was very surprising to me.
In fairness, the Nagler is a NEAF blem, I bought it at a huge discount, and it's more than worth what I paid for it. So I'm not complaining. However, I don't think the FOV difference is related to the blemish, which is nothing but a couple of cosmetic specks near the edge of the field stop.
I'm most surprised about the Hyperion. Not only was the field significantly larger than expected, it compares very well with the Orthoscopic for image quality and transmission. The TV eyepieces are, as has been noted by others, a bit on the "warm side", and the Astrola plossl, while sharp, also exhibits a slight haze. The Kellner is almost useless at my F-5.6 focal ratio, although barlowing improves its edge performance considerably.
I'm wondering if anyone else reports similar results, or if there are indeed big variations between individual eyepieces of a particular make and focal length?
-------------------- "Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Lamb0
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 07/25/07
Posts: 1324
Loc: Fairbury, Nebraska
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Your results are indeed typical. I'm a little surprised at the Hyperion, but not the Nagler. Using Al's field stop formula - the 2.5T6 with it's 3.4mm field stop, the eyepiece should have a useful A.F. of 77.92 degrees. This is typical of Naglers.
The Hyperion would require a field stop of 10.6mm - but with so many people playing ring games, an actual measurement may be problematic, and determined by the lenses themselves as there may not even be a field stop, as such.
-------------------- John, "Have eyepiece - will travel!"
8" f/5 Dob w/2.14" sec in a 12" alum tube 'The Mortar' - w/PCorr 2.16° TFoV @ ~32.5X 70+% illum *Yes!*
24Pan, 5-8 SW, 3 Faworskis (16.8, 10.5, & 7mm), TMB 3.2mm, Hyp 36mm Aspheric, 20T5, & 14ES100
Other 2": Paracorr (Green Parrot), 2X PowerMate, Antares 1.6X Barlow, Astronomik Hß, (older) Lumicon UHC & OIII
60mm $50 Walmart Special in training - aka "Backpack Observatory"
Binoculars: Minolta Activa 12x50s & Steiner 15X80s
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8190
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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I hate to say it again, but it bears repeating: The old TRUE FIELD = APPARENT FIELD divided by the MAGNIFICATION is *only* an approximation (10 percent accuracy usually). There are numerous instances where it just plain falls apart. You *cannot* use the formula backwards to get a very accurate apparent field of view figure! The only way to get accurate figures for apparent fields of view is to actually measure them on the optical bench (there are a few threads on Cloudynights which outline the details, and it isn't terribly hard to do). The apparent field of view is the angle which your *eye* sees when looking in the eyepiece (whether it is in a telescope or not). It is what it is regardless of what any formula or calculation says it is. For true field figures, the drift method is the way to go for certain. For a good formula for true field of view, the field stop formula can give fairly decent results (within a percent or two), but again, you just can't work backwards to get an apparent field of view figure that means very much. You have measured the true field of view that your eyepieces produce in your scope, and that is really all that matters. The apparent field is just the "size of the window" you are looking through, so it often isn't nearly as important as some people make it out to be. Clear skies to you.
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Lamb0
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 07/25/07
Posts: 1324
Loc: Fairbury, Nebraska
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And THAT is why I referred to a useful Apparent Field.
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Your results seem to strongly vindicate the concept of the RFOV ("Real Field Of View", formerly known as eAFOV, which stood for "effective Apparent Field Of View"). They also verify that unlike virtually all other eyepieces which have AFOV enhancing and thereby TFOV robbing pincushion distortion, the Hyperions (some at least, and perhaps all of them) have AFOV robbing and TFOV enhancing barrel distortion.
Also, the field stops for the TeleVue eyepieces would indicate exactly the TFOV's that you have measured. A powerful vindication of the field stop method of measuring TFOV, and (as David has indicated already) strong proof that the TFOV = AFOV/Mag method is not very precise (as opposed to TFOV = RFOV/Mag being right on the money,and TFOV = FS/Telescope_FL * 180/Pi also being right on the money).
I'm the worlds first (and perhaps only) advocate of urging eyepiece manufacturers, distributors, and retailers to replace their reporting of the very misleading and generally impractical AFOV with the quite useful and practical RFOV.
Provided that the focal length of an eyepiece is exactly as indicated, the two following formulas are true, and they are also equivalents:
RFOV = FS/Eyepiece_FL * 180/Pi
RFOV = AFOV * (1 + FD)
[where FD = the fractional representation of the aggregate percentage of pincushion and/or barrel type field distortions present within the eyepiece, with pincushion being negative in value, and barrel being positive in value. For example, 4% pincushion distortion would mean that FD = -0.04]
Due to inherent field distortion, this statement is false:
TFOV = AFOV/mag
Whereas this statement is true:
TFOV = RFOV/Mag
So therefore this statement (a third definition of RFOV) is also true:
RFOV = TFOV * Mag
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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For the two Baader eyepieces which just happen to hail from the same manufacturer (specifically the Genuine Ortho's and the Eudiascopics) Baader reports the RFOV, but sadly they quite confusingly report it under the term AFOV.
As a result, where U/O reports the AFOV of their HD Ortho's as 43 degrees, Baader reports this as 40 degrees for their essentially identical Genuine Ortho's. Likewise where Orion reports the AFOV for their Ultrascopics as 52 degrees, Baader reports the AFOV for their essentially identical Eudiascopic's as 45 degrees or so.
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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sabir
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 698
Loc: Pune (India)
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This would be really interesting when applied to the 13mm Ethos ....
-------------------- No one can attain good livelihood-even if he is so lucky - without passing through misfortunes. Days will usurp the opportunities of those who waste today's opportunity due to their expectation of tomorrow's opportunities. Day's custom is the usurpation of opportunities and the habit of time is wasting them.
Imam Ali (a.s)
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Actually the RFOV of the 13 mm Ethos can be calculated, since TeleVue gives us the field stop as being 22.3 mm.
RFOV = FS/Eyepiece_FL * 180/Pi
RFOV = 22.3/13 * 57.296
RFOV = 98.28 degrees
This tremendous result would indicate that pincushion distortion (rectilinear distortion, or the bending of straight lines) is quite well controlled for the Ethos, and this means that by default it must have predominantly angular magnification distortion instead (whereby objects do not retain a common magnification [size] across the field if view). With a field that wide, one would likely never notice that Saturn for example is perhaps 5% or 6% different in size from center to edge, and since stars effectively do not change in size (having no effective size to magnify by virtue of being "point sources"), this effect would never be noticed for them.
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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In addition to accounting for the rectilinear distortion present within the eyepiece, the RFOV also corrects for the field of view modifying effects of the "real" focal length of an eyepiece as opposed to the focal length under which it is marketed (and upon which it is stamped). I believe this is why Baader's AFOV (actually RFOV) figures for the Eudiascopics are so far off from Orion's 52 degree AFOV for the Ultrascopics. The Eudiascopic (and Ultrascopic) eyepieces not only have inherent pincushion, but their focal lengths are also likely not as indicated (being in all instances somewhat less than indicated). This also could be a significant factor for the Hyperions TFOV vs. AFOV. Ditto for the Ethos. If in fact the Ethos exhibits noticeable pincushion of greater than about 1.7%, then its real focal length is likely not 13 mm.
People have often wondered why the pseudo-Masuyama's from Celestron (the original Ultima's) were sold as for example 12.5 mm, 18 mm, and 24 mm, whereas the others all sell them as 15 mm, 20 mm, and 25 mm respectively. Hmmm???
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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sabir
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 698
Loc: Pune (India)
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Thanks Lawrence
-------------------- No one can attain good livelihood-even if he is so lucky - without passing through misfortunes. Days will usurp the opportunities of those who waste today's opportunity due to their expectation of tomorrow's opportunities. Day's custom is the usurpation of opportunities and the habit of time is wasting them.
Imam Ali (a.s)
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Here's a formula to calculate eyepiece field distortion (FD), given that the eyepieces field stop (FS) and focal length (FL) are reliably known and trusted:
FD = [(FS/FL * 57.296)/AFOV] - 1
To represent FD as a percentage, just multiply the result by 100 and take the absolute value (ABS) of the result.
For the example of the 24 mm Panoptic (FL = 24 mm, FS = 27 mm):
FD = [(27/24 * 57.296)/68] - 1
FD = -0.0521
The percentage of pincushion (plus any FL induced error, if present) is therefore:
ABS(100 * -0.0521) = 5.21%
And since this is pincushion distortion (FD is negative), we can conclude that the TFOV for this eyepiece will be 5.21% less than would be indicated by the old formula:
TFOV = AFOV/Mag
PS: For those who are confused by the term "distortion", the one thing that needs to be made apparent is that pincushion, barrel, and/or angular magnification distortions do not involve such things as sharpness, resolution, contrast, transmission, color purity, lateral color, ghosting, etc... so they are not generally what first comes to mind when one thinks of image "distortion".
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12885
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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This makes for an interesting discussion. I suppose the barrel distortion in the Hyperion could explain my results. What I'll need to do next is check out the drift at different distances from the center and look for variations.
It's not at all obvious to the casual eye that it's there, and certainly doesn't seem to visually distort any extended features. I'm also curious about what angular magnification distortion might be present in either of the Hyperion or Nagler. From my visual impressions so far, I think I'm willing to put up with a subtle barrel distortion in order to pick up a wider true field of view. I guess it wouldn't be such a good choice for astrometry, though. What surprises me most is how people seem to think that apparent field of view is such an obvious and objective characteristic. It's not for me. Peripheral vision is a funky thing, and in wide field eyepieces, that comes into play at the edge of the field. It's actually hard for me, at times, to see a difference in the apparent surface area of the field between the Hyperion and the Nagler. I have to look closely and move my eye around to confirm that the Nagler is wider.
-------------------- "Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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It just dawned on me that if manufacturers (distributors, retailers, ...) began reporting the RFOV for each of their eyepieces, in conjunction with the real focal length (to at least 1/10 mm), then we would immediately have the means whereby to compute the exact field stop diameter for the eyepiece, be it directly measurable, or only "effective" (due to the problem of the built in Barlow).
The precise field stop measurement for any eyepiece would be directly available from the equation:
FS = (RFOV * Eyepiece_FL)/57.296
The value of knowing the RFOV would simply be huge. No actual field stop measurement would ever again be required. Also there would be no need to ever again drift test for precise TFOV. In fact you could say that knowledge of an eyepieces RFOV would be "Majestic"!
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8190
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Lawrence Sayer posted:
Quote:
Your results seem to strongly vindicate the concept of the RFOV ("Real Field Of View", formerly known as eAFOV, which stood for "effective Apparent Field Of View").
Well, I am afraid that the definition of the apparent field of view is as I stated. There is no "Real Field of View", or "effective apparent field of view", as those are artificial concepts used to attempt to make the old formula for true field appear to be more accurate than it actually is. The only "real" fields are the actual angles measured for the angular span that the eye sees in the eyepiece (the Apparent Field of View), or that the observer measures on the actual "real" sky (the True Field of View). One should either use the old formula and accept its "ballpark" results, use the field stop formula, or just go ahead and measure the true field of view in a telescope and forget about formulae altogether. Clear skies to you.
-------------------- David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12885
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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I don't think it's an artificial concept at all. It's a real characteristic of a specific eyepiece. When all distortions and aberrations are taken into account, the Hyperion 8mm will perform as a 76 degree eyepiece, and the UO Orthoscopic will perform as a 39 degree eyepiece.
Once that measurement is done, I can insert the eyepiece into a scope of a different focal length and predict what the true field will be.
Is that incorrect?
-------------------- "Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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David Knisely
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8190
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
I don't think it's an artificial concept at all. It's a real characteristic of a specific eyepiece. When all distortions and aberrations are taken into account, the Hyperion 8mm will perform as a 76 degree eyepiece, and the UO Orthoscopic will perform as a 39 degree eyepiece.
Once that measurement is done, I can insert the eyepiece into a scope of a different focal length and predict what the true field will be.
Is that incorrect?
Well, it will not be a number that corresponds to something which is physical, well understood, and can actually be measured. More importantly, it will not be the angle which your eye sees when it looks into the eyepiece (the definition of "apparent field of view"). It will be some number which, by jumping through various mathematical hoops, may or may not be able to accurately predict the true field of view. This is why I like the field stop. It is a physical dimension of the eyepiece that can be measured and that gives reasonably accurate values for the true field (within two percent, which is more than accurate enough). Tele Vue cites it in their eyepiece data for this very reason. I measured the field stops and apparent fields for all 12 of my eyepieces. The true fields of view predicted by the field stop formula all came within about 1.2 percent of the actual true field produced when the eyepieces were in the telescope. The apparent field of view figures for the eyepieces yielded AFOV/Mag results which were up to 6.6 percent off of the actual true field values. In general, the field stop formula seems to be, on average, up to five times more accurate at predicting the true field of view than the old AFOV/Magnification formula is. With the "generic" or inaccurate AFOV figures given by some retailers, the accuracy of the old formula can be even worse.
The field stop diameter very well *should* be the standard for eyepieces, although the apparent field of view is something people might like to look at to see how much of a span they will see when they look in the eyepiece. I see little reason to "calculate" some odd-ball "real apparent field of view" that pulls in the field stop number to the equation, when the simple field stop formula gives great results to begin with. Introducing some "fudged" apparent field is just unnecessary and potentially confusing. Clear skies to you.
Edited by David Knisely (05/18/08 03:15 AM)
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jcjr
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/06/08
Posts: 563
Loc: TN, USA
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David, I haven't looked thru a lot of eyepieces, but found interesting that the Hyperion 8mm might have a wider view than advertised--
I have a 38mm Q70, supposedly 70 degree AFOV, but every time I look thru that thing, the AFOV seems huge. It gives the subjective impression of being much wider than some cheapie 80 degree AFOV UWA's I have, and that 38mm Q70 feels drastically wider than a 66 degree AFOV Expanse.
I might buy a 26mm Q70 to see if it gives the same 'huge' subjective impression as the 38mm Q70. Maybe the 38mm Q70 just subjectively seems wide because of the huge eyelens, but it is a very repeatable subjective impression. Every time I look thru the 38mm Q70, it just slaps me in the forehead, "Boy, that's an awfully wide view!"
Is the large eyelens the likely explanation? Or maybe the big exit pupil?
-------------------- CPC 1100, C102SLT, SV F80, Meade 70 & 60 AZT
Q70 38mm, Pan24, Meade 5K 18mm UW, Axiom LX 15mm, 10mm, 7mm, Nagler 13T6, Expanse 20mm, 9mm, 6mm, BO/TMB 5mm, 2.5mm
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Benjamin B
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/21/04
Posts: 1092
Loc: Sweden
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I have the 26 clone and the AFOV is very large. I also get that huge impression when I use it. By the way, its one of my favorite eyepieces, really sharp.
-------------------- G11/Gemini
TMB 80/480 super apo
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Quote:
(1) Well, I am afraid that the definition of the apparent field of view is as I stated. (2) There is no "Real Field of View" ...
(3) Well, it will not be a number that corresponds to something which is physical, well understood, and can actually be measured.
Note: '(1)' and '(2)' and '(3)' have been added by me to the above quotes so I can reference them below.
(1) This is precisely why the RFOV must not be called the AFOV (which is the mistake that Baader seems to have made if my assumption regarding their reported values is correct).
(2) That Baader does "apparently" report the RFOV (albeit with the just stated caveat) for two of its eyepiece series indicates (by my admittedly broad and sweeping extension) that it is in fact a real quality of every eyepiece. The concept is practical and can be used to calculate highly correct results, so it is clearly not purely fictitious and arbitrary in the fashion of the popular "Majesty Factor".
I will however grant the concession that the reporting of an eyepieces RFOV in no way means that the eyepieces AFOV should not also be openly reported. In fact with both numbers reported, loads of detail can be calculated regarding the inherent distortions present in the design, so both must be reported.
(3) As to directly measurable being the end all criterion for being real, I give you string theory, dark energy, and dark matter. Their effects are perhaps measurable, though they themselves are directly undetectable. They can however be mathematically expressed to explain real world (OK, universe) phenomenon. The RFOV can likewise be mathematically expressed to explain real phenomenon. The only difference is that the former can not be precisely stated (the +/- 3-sigma being huge), but the latter can be precisely stated (the +/- 3-sigma being small).
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4731
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Another quite useful outcome of the reporting of RFOV would be that it could be used to actually quantify the presently somewhat loose and arbitrary term known as "orthoscopic". Eyepieces with some specific degree of close affinity between their AFOV and RFOV would by this means definitively BE orthoscopic, and eyepieces wherein the AFOV and RFOV deviate by more than this (as yet not pinned down) "orthoscopic affinity value" (to be called the eyepieces stated 'OAV' perhaps? ) would by definition NOT BE orthoscopic.
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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