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wargentin
member
Reged: 05/04/07
Posts: 16
Loc: France
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The Baader Mark V binoviewer remains rather unknown, and owners of this excellent device, including myself, seem not very present in this forum. I will try to make up this fault, by sharing my experience with my f/4 Newtonian.
The following is derived from several months of intense star testing, with a very good 16" f/4 Newtonian. I must add that I am very demanding about optical quality, and I generally see flaws that many observers will never notice.
I am not interested in low powers.
There are four optical problems if one wishes to use a binoviewer in a fast telescope :
1- the binoviewer requires some in-focus clearance, and it is sometimes impossible to get the focus, even with some Barlow lenses
2- the prisms of the binoviewer introduce some chromatic aberration, and this CA increases as the f/d ratio decreases
3- the prisms also add spherical aberration, although CA is predominant
4- fast Newtonians have a big amount of coma, and users generally want to avoid it, as it is possible in monoviewing mode thanks to the Paracorr.
I know from several reliable testimonials that most binoviewers fail to give perfect images if the telescope is about f/4 or faster. This includes the DenkII with its Newtonian powerswitch. How about the Mark V ?
The Mark V has four optional optical correctors :
- the 1.25x glasspath corrector. It's a cemented doublet that is designed to compensate CA and SA of the prisms. It has an external 28.5 mm thread (1.25" filter thread), and it can be screwed in front of the binoviewer. It is possible to unscrew the retainer ring and to reverse the doublet in its cell. This feature is implemented to allow the use of this corrector with the Baader Maxbright binoviewer, which doesn't have the 1.25" filter thread. The user has just to verify the right position of the lens, as explained in the notice and on the corrector itself.
The coatings are excellent, and the lens is virtually transparent. I have measured the magnification, and I have found 1.23x, in good agreement with the specifications. Unfortunately, the in-focus travel is so large that it is absolutely impossible to use this corrector with a Newtonian telescope.
- the 1.7x glasspath corrector. A part from the magnification, it is very similar to the 1.25x model. I have found that the real magnification is 1.46x, rather different than the labelled magnification. Like the 1.25x corrector, it is impossible to use it in a Newtonian telescope.
- the 2.6x glasspath corrector. It's a rather different system. It's an air-spaced doublet, that cannot be turned in its cell. To be used with the Mark V, this corrector must be introduced in the 2" nosepiece and maintained by the supplied plastic ring, then this nosepiece is attached to the binoviewer. Screwing this corrector directly into the binoviewer would put the lens in the wrong position.
Contrary to the previous ones, the coatings are mediocre : the lens exhibits a strong blue reflection, and looking through the lens shows a marked yellow cast. Compared to a single eyepiece, the focuser must be pushed back by at least 55 mm, thus many Newtonian telescopes are not suited for this corrector. The real magnification is about 2.9x. Optically, the star test is good, but I have not been convinced by lunar observations : the image appears too dim, the edges could be better, and there is a lot of stray light.
- the 2" Newton 1.7x coma-correcting compensator. This big component is especially designed for Newtonian telescopes. With a Nagler 13T6, the focuser must be pushed back by about 40 mm compared to the mono eyepiece configuration (the exact distance varies slightly with the type of eyepiece). The magnification is exactly 1.7x, and the coatings are very good.
At the eyepiece the image is excellent. The coma is well corrected in a fast scope : with a pair of Panoptic 24, stars remains almost pinpoints even at the field stop, without field curvature, or apparent vignetting. At very high powers the image is still excellent, and exploring the moon with a pair of Nagler is a wonderful experience. The only drawback is that the moon shows sometimes a bright and disturbing reflection with short focal length eyepieces. I have found that this unwanted light can be suppressed by inserting a cardboard ring into the filter thread of the binoviewer, in order to reduce the aperture from 28 mm to about 15 mm.
My conclusion is that any Newtonian owner who wants the Baader Mark V binoviewer should consider the Newton 1.7x coma-correcting compensator, if the telescope has enough back focus. The image is close to perfection even in a f/4 scope.
However, it is not perfect. The star test is slightly altered, and there is a small chromatic aberration. Generally, atmospheric turbulence in large scopes does not allow the observer to see such tiny alterations, but from time to time the seeing improves, and when the Airy disc is visible chromatic aberration becomes apparent : the brightest stars are surrounded by a violet halo, the moon may exhibit delicate purple fringing even near the centre of the field of view, and Saturn and its ring have a very faint atmosphere.
So I have decided, out of curiosity and out of challenge, to search for a really perfect configuration for my Mark V.
The first idea that comes to mind is to use a Paracorr. There is a difficulty here : the focal plane must lie at a specific distance behind the Paracorr in order to provide good off-axis performance. This is technically possible, but the only solution is to use the complex following arrangement : Paracorr photo without the tunable top + Baader T2 extension tube 7.5 mm (#25C) + Baader 2.6x glasspath corrector (inserted in the extension tube) + Baader T2 quick changer (#06, supplied with the binoviewer) + Mark V. The total magnification is 3.3x, and the focuser must be pushed back by only 25 mm. Coma is totally removed from the image, but there is a small reddish fringing, and the moon appears rather dim, with a lot of stray light. Finally, this is not a good solution.
A very common solution is to use a Barlow lens in front of the binoviewer. Unfortunately, many Barlow lenses are not designed for light cones as steep as f/4, even if observers generally fail to notice this fact. I have myself tried the Baader FFC, which is one of the very best Barlow lenses, and I have discovered to my cost that it exhibits spherical aberration at f/4. However, there is absolutely no chromatic aberration, and the image of the moon given by the FFC/Mark V combination is bright and has a lot of contrast. The coma is not removed, so the image softens very slowly towards the edge. The total magnification is 3.6x, and the focuser must be pushed back by 25 mm.
Finally, I have found the following configuration to be the solution I was looking for :
Powermate 2x without the black barrel + Powermate 2x T-Ring adapter (PTR 2200) + Baader T2 quick changer (#06, supplied with the binoviewer) + Baader 1.25x or 1.7x glasspath corrector (screwed into the binoviewer) + Mark V. This configuration has many advantages :
- The powermate 2x does not alter the diffraction pattern in very fast telescopes : the star tests with and without the powermate are nearly identical
- The powermate 2x does not require a lot of back focus
- The powermate 2x provides a partial correction of the coma. This fact is obvious when comparing the Powermate to the FFC for example.
- The Powermate does not produce diverging rays like other Barlow lenses, so I believe that the risk of stray light is greatly reduced
- The powermate 2x has excellent coatings
- The powermate T-Ring adapter shortens the total length of the configuration
- The glasspath corrector cancels the chromatic aberration due to the prisms, that is still present at f/8
- The glasspath corrector avoids the use of the cardboard ring to suppress the disturbing reflection on the moon.
The final image is excellent : the star test is the best among all of the configurations I have tried, there is no chromatic aberration, the contrast is very good, and the sharpness barely deteriorates at the field edge. With the 1.25x glasspath corrector, the total magnification is 2.42x and the focuser must be pushed back by about 28 mm compared to the mono eyepiece configuration.
With the 1.7x glasspath corrector, the total magnification is 2.86x and the focuser must be pushed back by about 24 mm.
Another and less expensive solution would be the 2.5x powermate and its specific T-Ring adapter, but I haven't tried it.
I cannot honestly say that more details are visible with the configuration above compared to the 2" Newton 1.7x coma-correcting compensator. But once you have seen CA in the image, you see CA very often, and this can become disturbing.
Clear skies
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2388
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Wow! Thanks for the detailed post on the various OCS options. I have the Tele Vue 2x OCS with an adapter ring as well as the 1.25x and 1.7x Glasspath correctors to use with my Mark V. But I did not know there was a difference in the Glasspath design for the Maxbright and Mark V! I suspect my Glasspaths are for the Maxbright too! 
Unfortunately, I cannot use the Mark V with my 8" Portaball newtonian due to balance issues. However, I can use it with my 5" APO without an OCS and with my F12 9" SCT with the 1.25x OCS.
clear skies, Rick
-------------------- www.japanastro.com
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Doug D.
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 1167
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
But I did not know there was a difference in the Glasspath design for the Maxbright and Mark V! I suspect my Glasspaths are for the Maxbright too!
Rick - the Glasspath design is the same for both but the 1.25 and 1.7 x doublet has to be reversed in order to work in the Maxbright. I have both Maxbright and Mark V and can confirm.
I wasn't at all aware that the plastic ring had to be used with the 2.6 x compensator and that it has to be inserted into the nosepiece....
I don't use my Mark V's in a Newtonian but thanks for all the great information wargentin.
-------------------- Refractors mostly.... solar and dark sky.
Charlottesville
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Mike B
Starstruck
   
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 3984
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Wargentin-
Yes, a VERY detailed post! I may be a Denkhead, but i still appreciate hearing about other types/variations of gear... maybe that makes me a "gearhead" first? 
I'm curious tho- if a person were willing to create a second (*slightly* shorter) set of truss-poles for BVer mode that would accomodate focus using the OTHER glasspath correctors, the first few you mentioned- would there be an optical benefit in doing so?
I know, it'd make the Dob pretty much a "dedicated" BVer scope for that session, perhaps accompanied by a mono-scope set up adjacent? But if it would alleviate the need for the "fix" you've described, would the image quality deriving therefrom be an attractive option?
Also, at what F# would you estimate that the abberations you've described would be lessened to such a degree that *you* would consider them negligent. I know, each observer might call that at different points- yet for continuity of thot, i'm curious where *you* would mark it.
Like MANY things Dob, we all have criteria that we attempt to balance for our own, personal pursuit of the "ideal" scope; The primary's F-ratio is just ONE design-point in each of our equations, so if it were dialed up a skosh, other attributes could be "gained"- which might include one's BVer system!
Regards, mike b
-------------------- Happy "Fathers' Day" to all the Dads, old & new, clean-shaven & bearded... and any combination thereby!
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob * *
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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wargentin
member
Reged: 05/04/07
Posts: 16
Loc: France
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Hello, and thank you for the comments.
Quote:
I'm curious tho- if a person were willing to create a second (*slightly* shorter) set of truss-poles for BVer mode that would accomodate focus using the OTHER glasspath correctors, the first few you mentioned- would there be an optical benefit in doing so?
I know, it'd make the Dob pretty much a "dedicated" BVer scope for that session, perhaps accompanied by a mono-scope set up adjacent? But if it would alleviate the need for the "fix" you've described, would the image quality deriving therefrom be an attractive option?
I can only speculate about this possibility. With the 1.25x and 1.7x correctors, the number of lenses would be reduced, so perhaps the contrast would be slightly enhanced. But these correctors do not suppress coma, and I don't know if they can handle a f/4 light cone without adding optical aberrations. Moreover, if the tubes are shortened, either there is a risk of vignetting by the secondary mirror, or this mirror must be slightly larger and then it increases central obstruction. Personally, it's not a solution I would choose.
Quote:
Also, at what F# would you estimate that the abberations you've described would be lessened to such a degree that *you* would consider them negligent. I know, each observer might call that at different points- yet for continuity of thot, i'm curious where *you* would mark it.
I've already asked myself this question. As a planet and lunar enthusiast, I am actually thinking about a 12" f/5 telescope. It would be less sensitive to atmospheric turbulence, it would reach thermal balance more quickly, coma would be reduced or easier to cancel, and it would nicely accept any optical accessory. For larger Dobs, which are generally limited by turbulence, I would choose f/4.5. Interestingly, I have searched some information about aberrations with fast scopes, and I have learned that SA of accessories (some eyepieces, Barlow lenses, OCS…) increases as the fourth power of 1/f# ! So an accessory can be perfect at f/5, acceptable at f/4.5, and faulty at f/4.
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Mike B
Starstruck
   
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 3984
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
So an accessory can be perfect at f/5, acceptable at f/4.5, and faulty at f/4.
A very revealing design aspect, and i've heard that (or very similar) to be the case. Certainly that's a steeper part of the curve... with all the attendant joys & priveleges. 
Its fascinating to consider the current market trends toward sub-F4 primaries... like everything else has been pushed & tweaked to the max- now lets push THAT design aspect, so our scope can be bigger/lighter/shorter than what it was before.
Makes me appreciate the modest performance to be enjoyed with a common, slower scope... like my F4.55 Dob. 
Thanks again for your appraisal on this! mike b
-------------------- Happy "Fathers' Day" to all the Dads, old & new, clean-shaven & bearded... and any combination thereby!
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob * *
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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Peter Natscher
journeyman
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Monterey, California USA
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Hi,
What's the point of adding all this extra glass in front of the Mark V and ending up with a +2X bino system when you can use the excellent TeleVue 2X bino right off of the shelf. I've use both the Mark V and the TeleVue bino's and find them both to be excellent. I doubt that the Mark V will be as exceptional optically after adding more glass in front of it. The TeleVue 2X bino works on my f.4.2 Dob very well and is also a smaller and lighter-weight bino than the Baader and Denkmeier units are. I tried a Denk II power-switch bino and sold it - it was too large and heavy for my Dob and didn't offer any better seeing than my TeleVue bino did.
Thanks,
Peter Natscher
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2388
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Hi Peter,
I think the original poster was just trying to overcome the optical shortcomings of the 2.6x Glasspath or the 1.7 Newtonian corrector with the parts he had on hand. One of his conclusions was the TV 2.5x Powermate might work just as well. I have used the 2.6x Glasspath and agree it is not up to the same standard as the other two.
I bought the TV 2x binoview OCS to use with my Mark V instead of the 2.6x Glasspath but my Portaball can't balance the weight, otherwise I would try it out. Works great in my 5" APO though for high power viewing.
clear skies, Rick
-------------------- www.japanastro.com
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gatorengineer
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 573
Loc: Hellertown, PA
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At F4 I think the 28 MM CA will vignette significantly........ Im waiting for Sieberts Promised 35mm CA OCA...
-------------------- 16" Dob
8" F10 STF Mak Cass
8"F20 Dall Kirkham - In Progress at Parallax
8" F 3.75 in Pieces
12.5" F3.5 Newt
Lots of binos---
Nikon 8x30, 10x35, Prostars,10W/18 x 70 astrolux; 10x50 Fujis, Nikon 20x120's. Collectors items 12x60 BLC, 10x80 Flaks, Gas Masks, US Mark 28, 30, 41, 43's
Telescopes Past - C8, Meade LX10-10", SN8, TAL150K, Orion 150MC, Jason 60mm refractor, ATM 6" F8, WO 110FLT
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Virgogo
newbie
Reged: 08/21/07
Posts: 2
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Thank you for this very complete test Wargentin  I read elsewhere that barlow Astro-Physics (BARCON) is also competitive in front of a binoviewer. The head is very short (it unscrews) and the frontal lens is bigger than the Powermate. This could be interesting to try !
Excuse mon anglais je suis un boulet..
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lni55
newbie
Reged: 05/23/06
Posts: 1
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Hey there. I see a lot of people here have stuff from baader and thus maybee can give me an advise. I have bought the Baader Maxbright bino with two sets of eyepieces and worked quite well with that on my Celestron C8 Nexstar. Then I received an obssesion 18 f 4.2 UC. I ofcourse knew that this setup would not work and ordered the 1.8 glasweg corrector and coma unit. Sorry to say I could not focus this configuration. It needs about 1 inch inward travel. The Baarder service people told me that this must be due to the construction of the scope since they had not heard about any scope that could not focus with this combination. I reargued that I konw from the Yahoo forums that Denk and the OCS works like a charm with the UC. So where do I go from here ? Leaving an investment around 1000 $ is not an option I like to consider. My only solution so far is to prolong the length between the bino head and the glas corrector with some T2 extions which both units will accept. My concern is if this will actually focus becaus bringing the corrector one inch more into the lightcone might render to much light loss. Any advise or hints ?
Regards
Lars Nielsen
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Jeff Young
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 2755
Loc: Ireland
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I found the calculation of all the factors to be a nightmare and also ended up experimenting. I use the MkVs in very different conditions than Wargentin, but this thread might still be a useful place to collect the results.
In my f/10 MCT I use the MkV bino head with the T2 diagonal. The 1.7X glasspath compensator is inserted into the bino side of the T2 diagonal housing. This gives me exactly 1.7X.
In my f/6.8 refractor I use the MkV bino head with the T2 diagonal and 1.7X glasspath compensator in the same position. With the Astro-Physics BARCON element threaded into the objective side of the T2 housing I get 2.8X. With the AP BARCON element threaded into the 2" nosepiece (which is in turn threaded into the T2 housing) I get 3.2X. With the 2" nosepiece inserted into the assembled BARCON (complete with tube), I get 4X.
-- Jeff.
-------------------- UA Millennium / Nikon 18x70s Colorado:
AP400QMD / Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto Coronado SolarMax40 DS
AP1200GTO / APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 AP600EGTO / Tak Mewlon 250
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Jeff Young
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 2755
Loc: Ireland
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Oh, one other thing I've been told, but I haven't tried: the 1.25X and 1.7X glasspath compensators can also be inserted into the objective side of the T2 diagonal, where they should perform at 1.45X and 2.0X.
-- Jeff.
-------------------- UA Millennium / Nikon 18x70s Colorado:
AP400QMD / Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto Coronado SolarMax40 DS
AP1200GTO / APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 AP600EGTO / Tak Mewlon 250
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GlennLeDrew
super member
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 165
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I've done a quick 'n dirty comparison of the cheaper William Optics' (~20mm aperture) and Denkmeier (26mm aperture) bino viewers, and both have similar accommodation as regards steepness of light cone when used "au naturel", or "clean". An f/6 cone can certainly be passed fully, and possibly as fast as f/5.5. Any shorter, and aperture reduction will be the result. Actually, it may seem strange but my impression is that the smaller aperture (cheaper) unit could take in a slightly faster light cone.
-------------------- Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Jan cz
member
Reged: 09/02/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Czech Republic, Jistebnik
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I am using MarkV with 2" OCS in Lightbridge 12" F5. Before purchasing the MarkV, I asked at Baader whether it would come into focus. The answer was yes, but in reality it did not. After some experimenting I lifted the primary by about 1/3" using longer colimation bolts. Now with MarkV + 2" OCS it is focused when I rack the focuser almost all the way in (only about 2 mm left). With my Pan 41 it is focused all the way out. I did not check the vigneting, but at an eyepiece in bino mode image brightness and contrast is as good as in mono.
Jan
-------------------- J. Sima
ETX-90
LightBridge 12"
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Mike B
Starstruck
   
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 3984
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Very clever "fix", Jan- sounds like you nailed it for focus!
-------------------- Happy "Fathers' Day" to all the Dads, old & new, clean-shaven & bearded... and any combination thereby!
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob * *
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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k5apl
sage
Reged: 05/19/06
Posts: 208
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Jeff I tried it, and there was a difference. I have the prism diagonal and had to reverse the corrector's position, but on terestrial viewing I could see no changes in distortion or color. But, a calibrated reticle eyepiece is needed for me to actually tell how much difference. And, are the Glas- path correctors symmetrical so they can be used in either position? I was not adequately set up to try the changes on Saturn, a worthy target. BTW I'm using a f7 refractor.
Wes
Wes
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Jeff Young
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 2755
Loc: Ireland
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Wes --
I think they are designed to be used in either position. As you mentioned, you do need to keep the lenses in the correct orientation (convex side toward objective) -- in some positions you can just flip the whole housing over while in others you need to remove the cemented doublet from the housing and flip it over.
-- Jeff.
-------------------- UA Millennium / Nikon 18x70s Colorado:
AP400QMD / Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto Coronado SolarMax40 DS
AP1200GTO / APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 AP600EGTO / Tak Mewlon 250
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lucien
journeyman
Reged: 05/15/08
Posts: 5
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Yes Jeff, you can indeed use the 1,25X and 1,7X correctors in the objective side of the t-2 by using the supplied plastic ring, but, Herrn Baader told me himself that this is not a very clever idea because you WILL get vignetting this way. And if the manufacturer himself says so....I suppose we'd better take his word for it, no?
Interesting how you use the Barcon, I might try this myself with my TEC 140. Do you know where the focuspoints are with each barlow-1,7X combination?
Clear Skies,
Lucien
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