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MikeS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/06/04
Posts: 896
Loc: Quakertown Pennsylvania
First Contact Cleaning Solution new
      #2380558 - 05/08/08 03:32 PM

A few weeks ago, I made the mistake of spray painting a project in my garage while the 8 inch newtonian was parked in the corner. A while later, I found that the mirror had some hazy coating on it. I assume it was dried particulate matter from the spray. I twice tried cleaning with distilled water and dragging cotton balls on it... the typical routine. It had no effect.

I bought some Photonic "First Contact" cleaner. I used the starter kit with spray bottle. It went on easily, and I let it stay on overnight. In the morning I peeled it off. It came off easily in one plastic-like sheet. The mirror is clean again!

Great stuff, but a bit pricey at $105 for the red starter kit. I estimate that the starter kit will clean 2 eight inch mirrors and 2 secondaries. Plus probably enough left over for several EP. Maybe more, since I put on a thick coat. I thought that my mirror was ruined. But it is looking great.

--------------------
Mike Snisky
8" F5 Newtonian/Moonlite CR2
Orion Sirius EQ-G Mount
Orion 100mm F6 Achro on SVP w Intelliscope
Orion 100mm ED on LXD55 Mount
Denkmeier Standards


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desertstarsAdministrator
Say What?
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Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 28480
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: MikeS]
      #2380622 - 05/08/08 04:03 PM

Quote:

Great stuff, but a bit pricey at $105 for the red starter kit.




But cheaper than a new scope, I'll bet.

Have you had a chance to observe since doing this? How are the view compared to what you remember, pre-paint job?

--------------------
Tom W.

SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars



It is a plain road from the earth to the stars though mortal feet can not tread it. Garret P. Serviss 1888


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csa/montanaModerator
Astro Ambassador
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Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 25259
Loc: montana
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: MikeS]
      #2380874 - 05/08/08 05:39 PM

Mike, thanks for your experience with this product! It may seem pricy, but not compared to having a mirror recoated.

Carol

--------------------
Carol


AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
AstroTech 66ED / Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Tak LE 5mm
7mm Pentax XL, 10mm Pentax XW
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
22mm Pan, 35mm Pan

DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2



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Cary
Vendor (Optic Wave Labs)


Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 205
Loc: Rancho Cordova, CA
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: csa/montana]
      #2380941 - 05/08/08 06:10 PM

Actually new coatings are not that much more than using F.C.

F.C. is about $50.00 per cleaning of an 8" mirror (as stated above). We're charging $70.00 for a new coating.

Of course, there is shipping to consider etc. so I think one has to consider the age and condition of thier coatings as well.

--------------------
Cary Chleborad
http://www.wodenoptics.com
http://www.opticwavelabs.com



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MikeS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/06/04
Posts: 896
Loc: Quakertown Pennsylvania
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: desertstars]
      #2381406 - 05/08/08 09:22 PM

Quote:

But cheaper than a new scope, I'll bet.

Have you had a chance to observe since doing this? How are the view compared to what you remember, pre-paint job?




It is raining.

The forcast is for rain for the next few days. I'll report on it as soon as we get some clear skies.

--------------------
Mike Snisky
8" F5 Newtonian/Moonlite CR2
Orion Sirius EQ-G Mount
Orion 100mm F6 Achro on SVP w Intelliscope
Orion 100mm ED on LXD55 Mount
Denkmeier Standards


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LDb
sage
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Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 299
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: MikeS]
      #2381969 - 05/09/08 02:34 AM

Hi all

I've posted about this product before but will chime in since MikeS had such a (not surprising) positive experience. This material is used by NASA and Keck and various other high level optics outfits. I've been an optical physicist for over 30 years and this cleaning method is incredibly effective and simple.

In terms of our precious mirror and corrector coatings as well as the glass itself; I think, and with great respect for other well taken comments above, that it's about getting it clean now and then -- and not about how much new coatings will cost. The material really does leave as close to pristine surface with no deleterious effects as you can get -- if you've got a particularly bad problem then contacting Photoniccleaning directly is the thing to do and they will very happily help and give very specific instructions to augment the normal use of the material and get your optics clean.

I have no association with this product other than having first-hand experience with its capabilities.

Clear skies
Howard

--------------------
10" LX200R-UHTC (on ScopeBuggy which is terrific)
ETX-90-RA
ATM'ed-8"f/8 and 4.25"f/10 planetary Newtonians
Brandon eyepieces: 48mm,32mm,24mm,7/8",16mm,8mm,6mm,4mm(yes-4mm; special build in 1985 from 1960 optics)
Dakin 2.4x Barlow
Vintage ep's:
Gailand 7mm WF, 16.3mm (THE Galoc), Bertele 18mm
Siebert Optics:
Black Knight BinoViewer, 0.6x-1x-2x Power Wheel, Matched 24mm Ultra eyepieces, 4x-8x telecentric zoom barlow
Astro-Tech Titan WF ep's: 38mm, 32mm, 26mm, 20mm, 15mm, 10mm


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Fireball
sage


Reged: 03/24/06
Posts: 240
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Cary]
      #2382030 - 05/09/08 04:07 AM

Quote:

Actually new coatings are not that much more than using F.C.
F.C. is about $50.00 per cleaning of an 8" mirror (as stated above). We're charging $70.00 for a new coating.
Of course, there is shipping to consider etc. so I think one has to consider the age and condition of thier coatings as well.




I understand the efficiency of this kind of cleaning quite well. But the pricing strategy of F.C. is not a smart one since it is way too expensive to widely introduce this great product to the scope owners. Therefore, it will remain a niche product.
I doubt that the manufacturing costs are that high.
Reasonable pricing might lead to great success in the astro and photo community.

--------------------
20x90 Bino
12" Lightbridge
Selection of ultra wides from Meade, Televue and Pentax.


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Bowmoreman
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 2758
Loc: Bolton, MA
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Fireball]
      #2383039 - 05/09/08 02:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually new coatings are not that much more than using F.C.
F.C. is about $50.00 per cleaning of an 8" mirror (as stated above). We're charging $70.00 for a new coating.
Of course, there is shipping to consider etc. so I think one has to consider the age and condition of thier coatings as well.




I understand the efficiency of this kind of cleaning quite well. But the pricing strategy of F.C. is not a smart one since it is way too expensive to widely introduce this great product to the scope owners. Therefore, it will remain a niche product.
I doubt that the manufacturing costs are that high.
Reasonable pricing might lead to great success in the astro and photo community.




Just an FYI, and not necessarily the case in this instance, but sometimes you price things above where you could get wider market acceptance NOT because your costs are high or you want to be greedy on a per-unit profit, but because your business model cannot support higher volumes (at all, or cost-effectively)...

Say something COSTS a manufacturer $10 each. Say they are pricing it at $100. Per-unit profit is $90. And you get 1000 sales per year = $90,000 Profit.

Say they priced it at $20. Per-unit profit at $10. And say they get orders for 10,000. On paper that would be $200,000 profit. But maybe in order to handle a volume of 10,000 they have to invest in new manufacturing processes, suppliers, equipment, etc. and that investment might cost $1M. They might be reluctant to make that investment.

Grossly simplified example, but there may be other reasons than "profit greed" behind their price-point. Or it might be costs of raw materials. Don't know.

Main point? Pricing is a much more complicated formula than simply "cost" + "profit" = "price". There are many factors to which we are not privvy.

I think, if it works as the above comments describe, it has a place in many Astronomer's "arsenals" (and am considering it myself).

I do wish (naturally) it was cheaper. But, it isn't. Then again, nobody is forcing anyone to buy it.

Clear enough skies

--------------------
Dave
Ustream
YLive
XT10i, RTP, CGE, TMB80SS, SN8
31T5, 22T4, 13Ethos, 8Ethos, TV 3-6 Zoom; Paracorr
MallincamColorHyperPlus,SBIG STV&237A;CanonRebel Xti
WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO #90)



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Shawn H
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/16/07
Posts: 602
Loc: Southern France 43°56'N-4°50'E
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #2385865 - 05/10/08 06:43 PM

ROR is quite a bit cheaper !!! I'm surprised carol didn't chime in ! Shawn

--------------------
xt10i with Telrad & feather touch focuser
Starblast
15x70 Celestron Skymasters
35Stratus
27Pan
20XW
17Nag
12Nag
8 Ethos
Orion ultrablock
Astronomik OIII
Tele Vue 2x barlow
Antares 1.6x barlow


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sabir
sage


Reged: 06/23/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Pune (India)
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Shawn H]
      #2385957 - 05/10/08 07:38 PM

Hi Shawn,

ROR cannot be used on Primary or Secondary mirrors. Works GREAT ON ep's tough


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GUNER
Pooh-Bah
****

Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 1230
Loc: Bedminster,NJ USA
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: sabir]
      #2386440 - 05/10/08 11:23 PM

I thought First Contact isn't for EP's? At least that's what I got from the CN video demo of it here:
http://cloudynights.blip.tv/#900248

--------------------
Thomas
TAK SKY 90 on a Vixen Skypod
Stacked GOLD!PST/EXT-70AT/DSX-125
Infinity 2-1 CCD Camera with Lucam Recorder
Custom Scientific 1.25" LRGB filters
"new" 10" LX-50 owner
Have to set up this beast each night.
Well at least now I'm no longer a couch potato


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Shawn H
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/16/07
Posts: 602
Loc: Southern France 43°56'N-4°50'E
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: GUNER]
      #2387345 - 05/11/08 12:19 PM

Thanks Sabir & Gunner
You made me look into this! Shawn

--------------------
xt10i with Telrad & feather touch focuser
Starblast
15x70 Celestron Skymasters
35Stratus
27Pan
20XW
17Nag
12Nag
8 Ethos
Orion ultrablock
Astronomik OIII
Tele Vue 2x barlow
Antares 1.6x barlow


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Steve Saturn
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/10/03
Posts: 862
Loc: San Diego, CA
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Shawn H]
      #2387406 - 05/11/08 12:42 PM

Has anyone tried First Contact out on an SCT corrector plate? If so I'd love to hear about the results!

Steve

--------------------
C11 XLT
TMB 80/480
Celestron 100ED w/ Moonlite Focuser
Losmandy G11/Gemini
SBIG ST-2000XCM


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Denimsky
super member


Reged: 01/21/07
Posts: 174
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: MikeS]
      #2387687 - 05/11/08 02:56 PM

If I can clean my 4" refractor lens that clean and safe and easy, I'm willing to give it a try. I'm even having a hard time to clean an eyepiece thoroughly without levaing any streak. I can't imagine cleaning my refractor objective.

--------------------
DH


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LDb
sage
*****

Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 299
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Denimsky]
      #2388664 - 05/11/08 11:17 PM

Check out the link to the website above in the OP. there are instructions and descriptions of cleaning corrector plates, eyepieces, and refractor objectives. Also the video from NEAF shows the results and mentions use on all other optics. Results speak for themselves. Pretty cool.

--------------------
10" LX200R-UHTC (on ScopeBuggy which is terrific)
ETX-90-RA
ATM'ed-8"f/8 and 4.25"f/10 planetary Newtonians
Brandon eyepieces: 48mm,32mm,24mm,7/8",16mm,8mm,6mm,4mm(yes-4mm; special build in 1985 from 1960 optics)
Dakin 2.4x Barlow
Vintage ep's:
Gailand 7mm WF, 16.3mm (THE Galoc), Bertele 18mm
Siebert Optics:
Black Knight BinoViewer, 0.6x-1x-2x Power Wheel, Matched 24mm Ultra eyepieces, 4x-8x telecentric zoom barlow
Astro-Tech Titan WF ep's: 38mm, 32mm, 26mm, 20mm, 15mm, 10mm


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Steve Saturn
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/10/03
Posts: 862
Loc: San Diego, CA
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: LDb]
      #2388729 - 05/11/08 11:47 PM

Thanks Howard. I used the Search window to try to find any mention of corrector plates or Schmidt Cassegrains, but I didn't find it. I don't doubt that it's there, sometimes I overlook the obvious . I sent an email inquiry. I'm concerned that the product might seep into the space under the secondary mirror holder. I suppose you could mask around the holder, but I don't want to be the first one to try it . I'll report back once I get a response.

Steve

--------------------
C11 XLT
TMB 80/480
Celestron 100ED w/ Moonlite Focuser
Losmandy G11/Gemini
SBIG ST-2000XCM


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MikeS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/06/04
Posts: 896
Loc: Quakertown Pennsylvania
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution [Re: Steve Saturn]
      #2402707 - 05/17/08 09:21 PM

It seems that I've greatly underestimated how much area the cleaner can cover. Using the thinner that is supplied with the kit, I thinned out the formula a bit and cleaned my secondary, along with another secondary I had in storage. I was impressed how thin I could go and still get a solid peel off the mirror. I cleaned my 8 inch mirror again (just experimenting) and a thin layer worked just fine. So if you use the supplied thinner, you can get much more out of the kit that just the two mirrors that I originally thought.

I guess I kind of wasted much of the formula experimenting with the thinner and such... but it was good to know how thin I could go.

--------------------
Mike Snisky
8" F5 Newtonian/Moonlite CR2
Orion Sirius EQ-G Mount
Orion 100mm F6 Achro on SVP w Intelliscope
Orion 100mm ED on LXD55 Mount
Denkmeier Standards


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jsmiller58
super member


Reged: 06/19/06
Posts: 164
Loc: Out there, Way out there
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Steve Saturn]
      #2402971 - 05/18/08 12:49 AM

Steve,

I too have a C11, and I also am planning on using First Contact to clean my corrector - was planning on doing this earlier today, but time slipped away and am now planning on tomorrow... What is your worry with regards to some of it slipping under the mirror holder? It seems like it dries pretty fast, so it is not likely to flow too much or far, and if you prop up the C11 as applying it is not likely that much will flow... So, maybe I better understand what you are worried about before I apply it and find myself

James

--------------------
- 90mm WO refractor
- 11" Orion SCT
- CDK-17 on order
- MallinCam Hyper Color Plus
- More filters and eyepieces than I can use
- Orion EQ-G mount
- Losmandy GM-8 mount
- AP 1200GTO mount
- Pro-Dome-15 (with a 12 inch steel pipe pier wrapped in a 36 inch concrete pier)
- A wife who doesn't understand my fascination with faint fuzzies, but encourages me anyway
- A 16 year old son who calls me just another nut job with an observatory
- A 14 year old son that still thinks I am cool


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Steve Saturn
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 10/10/03
Posts: 862
Loc: San Diego, CA
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: jsmiller58]
      #2403032 - 05/18/08 01:40 AM

Hi James,

I received a reply from Philip Jackson at Photonic Cleaning Technologies. This was his response:

Quote:

Hi Steve,

Yes, you can clean the corrector plate. It is pretty easy and safe. Here is a rough video of the process. http://www.rdelsol.net/Movies/SCT_FC3/SCT_FC3.html

Ken Crawford made this video and it was only the second time he used First Contact!

Please contact me for more information and tips to do this successfully.




Based on what I've seen I'm ready to give it a try! My concern was that it may be hard to remove from the area where the secondary mirror holder attaches to the corrector plate. After seeing the video I'm feeling pretty confident. Please let me know how it goes!

Steve


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jsmiller58
super member


Reged: 06/19/06
Posts: 164
Loc: Out there, Way out there
Re: First Contact Cleaning Solution new [Re: Steve Saturn]
      #2403093 - 05/18/08 03:00 AM

Thanks for the link! After watching the video, I have to question whether my corrector needs the cleaning compared to the scope they showed!

Anyway, I will be trying it sometime tomorrow and will report back... I was thinking of using essentially the same approach for masking things off, except in my case I was thinking standing the SCT up on it's rear cell, and placing aluminum foil "rings" rather than what looks like tape to prevent any of the First Contact from having a chance to seep into the housing... I will take photos and post how it goes...!

James

--------------------
- 90mm WO refractor
- 11" Orion SCT
- CDK-17 on order
- MallinCam Hyper Color Plus
- More filters and eyepieces than I can use
- Orion EQ-G mount
- Losmandy GM-8 mount
- AP 1200GTO mount
- Pro-Dome-15 (with a 12 inch steel pipe pier wrapped in a 36 inch concrete pier)
- A wife who doesn't understand my fascination with faint fuzzies, but encourages me anyway
- A 16 year old son who calls me just another nut job with an observatory
- A 14 year old son that still thinks I am cool

Edited by jsmiller58 (05/18/08 03:19 AM)


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