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larrytOMC200
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Posts: 206
Loc: New Zealand
Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new
      #2401361 - 05/17/08 06:24 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

Hello all,
here is another image I obtained from the session the other night. It shows sunrise over Gassendi. This is a ring plain that is 110Km in diameter and sits on the northern shore of mare humorum. Its walls average about 1.8km in hight with respect to its floor. The low sun angle shows just how rough the interior of Gasendi is, and the central mount stands out starkly from the jet black shadows around it.
Image taken with my OMC200 and opticstar 122 ccd, using a star diagonal at F20 prime focus. Thank you for looking, and keep well. Larry

Edited by larrytOMC200 (05/17/08 06:26 AM)


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Mare Nectaris
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 948
Loc: Toijala, Finland
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: larrytOMC200]
      #2401604 - 05/17/08 09:56 AM Attachment (12 downloads)

Hi Larry - thanks for that pic and that info!

Also very nice feature on your pic is that mountain rising out of the darkness of the terminator zone - that peak is 400 meters higher than the peak of Gassendi central mountain, if I read the map correctly.

Attached please find a crop of LAC93.

Be well!

--------------------
Share - and you shall have it all

Timo Keski-Petäjä

Observation shelter KuuMaja (MoonHut)
TAL 250K
Celestron C8-N
SkyWatcher Skymax 150 Pro
TAL 1 (Mizar)
EQ6 Pro SynScan
Celestron Advanced GT (CG-5 GOTO)
Baader Hyperion Clickstop Zoom 8-24
17 mm UWA-70
TeleVue BIG 2x Barlow
Celestron 2x Barlow Ultima SV Series
Meade DSI (vintage)


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Matt Looby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/09/03
Posts: 792
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Mare Nectaris]
      #2401930 - 05/17/08 01:14 PM

Hi Larry ,

Thanks for sharing such an excellent image.

Matt

--------------------
CN GALLERY














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photonovore
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Matt Looby]
      #2402146 - 05/17/08 03:51 PM

Nice FOV that 1MP camera gives you Larry--and splendid image as well. I, too, was struck by Gassendi's beautiful positioning on the terminator and happened to take an image as well--coincidentally at apparently almost the exact same time as you!-- using my 6" Zhumell achromat & Neximage, seeing >2:arc:



I too was taken by the apparent roughness of Gassendi's floor-- and also couldn't help admire the crescent of the illuminated tops of the unnamed peaks to the southwest... definitely a beautiful vista--catching eyes (obviously) from opposite sides (and hemispheres!) of the globe!

--------------------
Mardi




AR-5 ldx75 refractor, 80mm f/11 refractor, 6" eq3 RFT, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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larrytOMC200
sage


Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 206
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: larrytOMC200]
      #2402630 - 05/17/08 08:40 PM

Thanks for the comments all, and special thanks for the info about the hight of the mountain peaks near Gassendi. Thats making the picture come alive for me, as it were. I can get an idea of the scale as regards hight now. The image taken at the time time as mine is good. It brings home to me that I am now on the opposite side of the globe to where I grew up on! Keep well all. Larry

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Jim Mosher
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Reged: 05/22/06
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Mare Nectaris]
      #2402725 - 05/17/08 09:31 PM

Timo -

This may seem a minor point, but you may have noticed that Larry's photo is being presented as a mirror image. The bright peaks that are just coming into sunlight in his image (and in Mardi's taken about 3 hours later) are actually to the west of Gassendi, in the vicinity of Gassendi E and K. In addition, there is a kind of scarp running out onto the floor of Mare Humorum that also catches the light, accounting for the lengthening thin bright line.

But the elevations of the peaks to both the east and west, as given on the old LAC you mention, are about the same. I didn't try to check if they are accurate or not.

-- Jim


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revans
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: larrytOMC200]
      #2403174 - 05/18/08 05:05 AM

You are really getting some nice detail !

Rick

--------------------
Rick Evans

http://www.freewebs.com/revans_01420/


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photonovore
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Jim Mosher]
      #2403196 - 05/18/08 06:02 AM

Jim, if my image was taken later, why are the shadows in it longer than those in Larry's image (waxing moon)? Also, three hours between? How could this be? I noticed major changes in the illuminated area of the peaks beyond the terminator in just 1/2 hour-- yet they appear essentially the same in both of these images--within a few minutes not hours. It seems to me that 3 hours of difference would certainly make a much more dramatic difference in comparative illumination. My image corresponds to about 18:15 NZ local for Dunedin (-7 UT for me, +12 for Larry) according to the Virtual Moon ephemeris (illumination 87.1%, colong 43, solar incl 1.5, phase 42.2). So i'd be guessing Larry's image was taken just a few minutes after that time. So Larry, what time were you imaging Gassendi? (Curious minds and all that... )

--------------------
Mardi




AR-5 ldx75 refractor, 80mm f/11 refractor, 6" eq3 RFT, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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larrytOMC200
sage


Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 206
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: photonovore]
      #2403252 - 05/18/08 07:38 AM

Hello all,
The image was taken at 2008hrs local Dunedin time.I hope this is of help to you all. regards Larry


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Matt Looby
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Posts: 792
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: photonovore]
      #2403355 - 05/18/08 09:12 AM

Thank You Mardi,

Very nice image. Looks like both images were captured close to same
time.

Thanks,

Matt

--------------------
CN GALLERY














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Matt Looby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/09/03
Posts: 792
Loc: Wadhams, NY
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 [Re: Matt Looby]
      #2403378 - 05/18/08 09:30 AM

Hi Group,

I think Co-longitude data is very important of course along with (UT). Thankfully it is so
easy to obtain (Virtual Moon Atlas). A read a lunar observing guide
where the author indicated this is the single most necessary
piece of information.....

--------------------
CN GALLERY














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Jim Mosher
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Reged: 05/22/06
Posts: 204
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: photonovore]
      #2403572 - 05/18/08 11:58 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

Quote:

If my image was taken later, why are the shadows in it longer than those in Larry's image?




Sorry about the confusion, Mardi. "Later" was a typo on my part (you may have noticed I also have trouble with left-right, east-west, and many others).

I was going by the time encoded in Larry's filename, which says "16 May 2008 2100hrs". Since I know it's Larry's custom to give local Dunedin time I subtracted 12 hours and came up with 0900 UT. If I'm reading the caption properly (both my screen and my eyes are a bit fuzzy), your own label says "0617 UT". That sounded like about a three hour difference to me, but I didn't check if that was perfectly consistent with the shadow lengths recorded in the two photos. Larry has now posted a corrected time of "2008 hrs local Dunedin time" - 12 hrs = 0808 UT; and you are perhaps now indicating 0615 rather than 0617 (?). So the correct difference is apparently something like 1 hour 53 minutes. For what little it may be worth, the lengths of the shadows in Larry's photo cast by the east wall of Gassendi onto the relatively flat floor are more consistent (relative to the lengths shown in yours) with the assumption that Larry's photo was taken at 0808 UT than at 0900 UT (when one would have expected them to be very slightly shorter than they are).

During the ~2 hr interval from 0615 UT to 0808 UT the sun angle at the center of Gassendi (the height of the Sun in the sky relative to the local horizontal) increases from about +2.25 deg to +3.15 deg. This difference in angles is roughly twice the Sun's apparent diameter of about 0.5 deg. Intuitively one might expect to see noticeable changes in lighting when the Sun rises by about half its own diameter. So yes, a careful observer might well notice changes in one-fourth this time, or about half an hour, perhaps even less in special cases (like a peak just catching the Sun's first rays).

To clarify the differences between the two photos, I've used the free LTVT software to re-map Larry's photo, and also a much higher sun Lunar Orbiter photo, to the same geometry as yours. I've also increased the "gamma" of both Earth-based photos in an effort to bring out the details at the terminator a bit more clearly.

Looking at the region in Mare Humorum around Gassendi L (see yellow arrow in LO photo), one might almost think the terminator had retreated in Larry's later photo relative to yours. But this seems to be an artifact of differences in exposure and processing. As you point out, the shadows in Gassendi has shortened significantly, and new peaks (highlighted by the blue arrows added to Larry's photo) have come into sunlight in the later photo. In particular, the area around Gassendi E has broadened, and a new sections have been added to the feature indicated by the green arrow in the LO photo (which I previously referred to as a "lengthening thin bright line").

The short red line added to Larry's photo indicates the projected direction of the rays illuminating the slope to the east of Gassendi E (and can be applied more generally to both Earth-based photos). In both photos the sunlight along this line is streaming over the west rim of Gassendi and striking the slope near Gassendi E. In your photo it is hitting a point about 50 m above the rim of Gassendi (the remainder of the area around Gassendi E, that sticks up into the sunlight, is higher than this by some amount that cannot be determined from these photos). In Larry's image, the rising Sun has caused the leading edge of sunlit area to move down the slope to a point about 680 m below the rim. A short bit later this progression would be interrupted by the rays from Gassendi's rim striking the dark gap region of the scarp/ridge indicated by the green arrow. The crest of this ridge appears to be about 200-500 m below the crater rim, and a comparison of the two photos shows how it is increasing illuminated as the sun's rays penetrate lower and lower due to the increasing sun angle. Once illuminated, these peaks cast their own shadows to the west.

-- Jim


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Jim Mosher
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Matt Looby]
      #2403657 - 05/18/08 12:41 PM

Matt,

That sounds like excellent advice, although I personally think the two most important things are giving (1) an accurate time (hopefully in UT to relieve the reader of the burden of making what is to them likely to be an unfamiliar and uncertain conversion from local time) and (2) an approximate observing location. From these two items everything else about the geometry of the observation (such as colongitude and librations) can be computed. Without them it cannot.

For those interested in the appearance of surface details, the Sun's elevation and azimuth as seen from the feature of interest are actually more important than the colongitude. The observing location is not necessary for this computation, but in addition to permitting an accurate computation of the librations, it also provides a very rough reality check on the stated time (would the Sun have been below the horizon? and would the Moon have been at a reasonable elevation in the sky?).

One generally unhelpful thing (frequently encountered on webpages) is giving the time of the observation by stating the "Age of the Moon". There seem to be different conventions for this, and in the absence of any other information it's impossible to know how an "Age" was obtained and what actual clock time it refers to. It's much safer to give the UT (and observing location) and let the interested reader compute from those whatever else they may be interested in.

All this applies, of course, only to those who want to infer something about the lunar topography from their observations. Many of today's very best imagers appear to regard the Moon simply as an interesting photographic target -- no different from a butterfly or a pebble on the beach. For them what is of interest is the equipment that was used and the way the image was processed. The time is totally irrelevant in this context, except possibly to record the date of the accomplishment. Hence a great many LPOD's, and an even larger number of very fine lunar photos posted on the web give no hint as to exactly when they were taken. This is certainly the prerogative of the photographer (or observer), but it seems unfortunate that they are discarding the considerable value that could be added to their work by so simple an act as noting the approximate time on a wristwatch.

-- Jim


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photonovore
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Posts: 2465
Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Jim Mosher]
      #2403725 - 05/18/08 01:20 PM

LTVT strikes again! I really should take some time and learn to use that program. Thanks for the explanation, Jim--and your correct time, Larry. (0617 was correct for the end of the capture which went for about two minutes). Two hours difference surprises me a bit, though i do not doubt it as a fact now. But this is why it fooled me:



Left is an earlier shorter capture (interrupted by a heavy truck passing on the nearby street--which does a nice imitation of a small earthquake...) and the other the one posted earlier. I noted the significant changes in the illumination of the peaks and assumed (bad idea) that this increase in illumination rate was more or less constant. I never looked quite this closely at the *rate* of emergence of peaks past the terminator before--obviously it starts out quite fast and then slows down considerably as the light begins to creep down the slopes after rather quickly illuminating the tops of the peaks. Very interesting! It's amazing what one learns through a bit of close study of some lunar images.

--------------------
Mardi




AR-5 ldx75 refractor, 80mm f/11 refractor, 6" eq3 RFT, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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Mare Nectaris
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: photonovore]
      #2403748 - 05/18/08 01:35 PM

... Thanks (again) for most enjoyable moments that this forum can possibly give!

What a detailed pile of facts to study from - and as Larry said, these kind of analysis really gets the pics into breathing!

Mardi - regarding those minor changes in the light conditions on mountain peaks on photos.

Time and again I've been surprised by just looking at Registax processing the single frames from an avi (as these pics are recorded for instant @ 25 fps). There can be quite major shiftments on the mountain peaks especially - that is on the way that light from them has dwelled onto the CCD / CMOS chip - actually varying according to seeing (for instance boiling conditions can cause these).

The only way to be quite on the safe side with these minor changes on photoes would be to process enough frames from avi or just use a decent single shot.

And - of course - a drawing would settle the problem as one could have a visual confirmation tool to assist the memory or as a reference.

Sometimes it is also amazing how some minor peaks can be left in darkness unless one postprocesses the pic in a way that the contrast and brightness become more revealing.

It is just amazing how much detail can be lurking in a pic - as the version that the camera gives is just its own interpretation of the brightness, contrast and saturation.

Plenty of details can many times be digged up due to postprocessing (for instance via unsharp mask which enhances the contrast between single pixels).

- And folks, please, do not take this kind of talk like criticism - or merely discussing technicalities on an observation oriented thrad!

It just happens to be so, that modern digital photos are quite far from what the eye is able to see. At their best, they can deliver to a most enjoyable degree quite revealing details - even small details - when the processing enables those quantum reflections from the lightdwells of the charged couple device (CCD) to come into daylight. - Or should one say Moonlight

And regarding that idea of posting accurate time for the observation (or shot) - that is a fact I learned from Jim - and I'm very happy for his advice on that (among many other things).

One should also be aware that modern digital cameras also record on a pic or avi a thing called metadata. There is also the correct time of shooting there, if only the camera was first told the correct time.

Thus in a digital pic this kind of stamping can be found among the actual bitflow having the photographic data. This is also used to determine whether a pic has been tempered with (for instance if it is used as evidence or something) as every processing leaves a mark on the metadata section.

- So, actually no need for even wristwatches (if that feels like a bother to look at the time) in this, if one just puts the camera to correct date and time.

Be well all!

--------------------
Share - and you shall have it all

Timo Keski-Petäjä

Observation shelter KuuMaja (MoonHut)
TAL 250K
Celestron C8-N
SkyWatcher Skymax 150 Pro
TAL 1 (Mizar)
EQ6 Pro SynScan
Celestron Advanced GT (CG-5 GOTO)
Baader Hyperion Clickstop Zoom 8-24
17 mm UWA-70
TeleVue BIG 2x Barlow
Celestron 2x Barlow Ultima SV Series
Meade DSI (vintage)

Edited by Mare Nectaris (05/18/08 01:47 PM)


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photonovore
Moonatic
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Mare Nectaris]
      #2403764 - 05/18/08 01:44 PM

Timo, point taken re; the effect upon seeing re; individual frames (exposures) within an avi. In these two images that i posted the differential (as reported by registax) was between 4 and 12 pixels. A good stack erases the comparatively massive movements, defocused frames and lighting variations one sees in the raw avi and leaves one with an image that is accurate to within the pixel error margin reported--basically the best, least "disturbed" frame of the avi but with sufficient "depth" to withstand post-processing without generating "too much" extraneous noise.

--------------------
Mardi




AR-5 ldx75 refractor, 80mm f/11 refractor, 6" eq3 RFT, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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larrytOMC200
sage


Reged: 07/05/07
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Loc: New Zealand
Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: photonovore]
      #2403856 - 05/18/08 02:27 PM

Hello group,
Thanks for the discussion regarding the images, it is surprising what one can learn! Also apologies for the mistake in timing I made, the reason I posted 2100hrs and not 2008 hrs was because I actually had taken a number of frames of this area and the last one was at 2100hrs. When I chose one to post on CN forum I inadvertently placed the wrong time on the image. Sorry again, I will endeavour to post the Colong on any future posts so as to (hopefully) eliminate any confusion. Regards Larry


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Matt Looby
scholastic sledgehammer


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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Jim Mosher]
      #2404267 - 05/18/08 05:58 PM

Hi Jim and Group,

Selenographic co-longitude- for those unaware- which is the lunar longitude of the sunrise
terminator is very accurate for indicating the the position of the Sun because it has been corrected
for the Moon's librations. Using Virtual Moon Atlas (for example) which allows one to configure
his/her location on the globe, one will get a calculation nearly very accurate of the selenographic
co-longitude from that locale as time zone is also factored in. I don't think it gets any easier .

As far as UT- must have too for critical scientific work but it must be start and finish info in order
to interpolate Co-longitude span. I usually indicate the mid point.

More information is useful of course such as I like to record the distance from my locale to the moon.
This could help me determine telescopic resolution- approximately.

In my little world , and for purposes of sharing observations the above ball-park data will
help eliminate any guess work... so I could, say go to an archive and search for lunar record
say of a crater, and then further, find one that is close to same selenographic co-longitude.

Larry Todd and I both possess the same type of telescope- we both use a mirror diagonal as well.
Even still Larry is down in (NZ) and I in (NY) we could share observations using the
all important Selenographic Co-Longitude.


Thanks,

Matt

--------------------
CN GALLERY














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Jim Mosher
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Matt Looby]
      #2407007 - 05/19/08 09:04 PM

Matt,

For the benefit of you and others interested in such matters, I took a moment to update the-Moon Wiki page on colongitude explaining, hopefully in fairly clear language, exactly what it is and is not. Feel free to add to and/or modify it if changes are necessary.

Colongitude is indeed a helpful (and traditional) way to describe the lunar lighting circumstances, but depending on the level of precision one is interested it may be regarded as giving, as you say, only a ballpark feel. This is especially true of observations far from the Moon's equator.

As explained on the Wiki page, this variation in appearances is due to a second parameter listed as the "solar inclination" in the Virtual Moon Atlas ephemeris output. That's actually just a fancy word for the Sun's latitude as seen from the Moon. Perhaps it's called "inclination" because the changing solar latitude twists ("inclines") the terminator relative to lines of constant longitude: the colongitude defines where the terminator crosses the equator, but what is in light and what is in shadow to the north and south of the equator depends on how the terminator is "inclined". Because of this effect, it's quite possible for two observations of a region taken at the same colongitude to look different; and conversely, for two observations taken at different colongitudes to look substantially the same.

As a practical example of this, the present observations of Gassendi were made when the Sun's selenographic latitude was +1.58°. Mardi's (at 06:16 UT on May 16, 2008) is at a colongitude of 42.96° (you don't need to know locations to calculate colongitudes) while Larry's (at 08:08 UT) is at a colongitude of 43.91°. Whether you regard the change in shadow lengths due to this 1° change in colongitude significant or not is, of course a matter of opinion. But if you were to look at the Moon again on November 9, 2008, when the Sun's latitude is -1.54° you will find the clockwise twist caused by the lower solar latitude causes a given lighting pattern to be seen at an earlier (smaller) colongitude. In fact, if you look at around 04:35 UT on Nov. 9, when the colongitude is 42.86°, you might expect to see something similar to the long shadows of Mardi's lighting, but instead you will see something much closer to the short shadows of Larry's: the prediction of repeat lighting based on colongitude alone is off by about two hours.

Again, having the lighting (based on matching colongitudes) be offset by two hours relative to the correct times (based on matching sun angles) may not seem like a big deal; but this is for Gassendi, which is only 18° from the Moon's equator. For features still farther north or south of the equator, the variation in appearance at a given colongitude becomes increasingly large. Near the poles, features can (because of a high solar latitude) be visible in sunlight in one lunation, yet never be visible in another lunation (regardless of colongitude) due to a lower solar latitude.

So if you're going to give the Sun's colongitude it's almost necessary to give the Sun's latitude as well.

But it's hard to anticipate exactly what information a reader/viewer may be interested in; so unless colongitude is particularly relevant for a specific image, there's something to be said for simply giving the date/time and observing location. From those they can calculate whatever else they may be interested in, just as you can. Unlike the computable geometric parameters, there are other things, such as the telescope size, magnification, filtering, exposure time (for a photo), etc., that can be equally important to the interpretation of an observation and are more important to provide, because if you don't explicitly mention them the reader cannot possibly deduce them.

--

One problem with adding the many parameters displayed in the VMA ephemeris to an observation is that VMA adjusts (as you point out) the input time to what it thinks is the correct UT before making its calculations, but the adjustment from local time to UT is not always correct (especially in older versions of VMA). In the VMA ephemeris output you will see lines listed as "Date" and "Date (DT)". I believe the first is the time you enter, and the second is what VMA thinks is the correct "ephemeris time" (which is basically UT plus an ephemeris offset of a few minutes -- sometimes called "DeltaT"). Users may incorrectly assume VMA is automatically displaying data for the UT corresponding to the local time they enter when in fact it is displaying the results for some other UT. In the past, this was particularly a problem with users asking VMA to look up the data for some past observation. VMA assumed it could obtain the correct UT by adding the current number of hours offset from local time to UT. But if the current offset is based on daylight savings time, and the old observation time was not (or vice versa), the results would be off by 1 hour. This problem has hopefully been solved in the current version of VMA, but some users still have the time offset incorrectly set. As a consequence, a significant amount of the colongitude, "age", etc. data posted on the web is incorrect, or at least unverifiable, unless the actual time of the observation is listed.

To be sure that you understand how VMA works it's probably best to manually set the offset to zero by unchecking the "Use Computer Date and Time Zone" box under "Configuration...General...". That forces VMA to give the results for a known UT input. When you switch back to local time (if you choose to do so), you need to manually verify that the offset from "Date" to "Date (DT)" is what you expect, putting "Date (DT)" (the thing the calculations are based on) close to the correct UT, and returning the same data, especially if you manually enter a date for a past (or future) observation. But please don't give "ephemeris time" instead of UT on your observations! That would lead to total confusion. "Ephemeris time" is used internally for the calculations, but it is not an "improved" version of UT.

Alternatively you can try calculating the colongitude using LTVT or with the JPL Horizons ephemeris system. The former displays the colongitude in the main screen (under "Computed Geometry", as well as giving you the equatorial longitudes of the Morning Terminator ("MT") and the Evening Terminator ("ET"). The latter will give you the precise longitude of the sub-solar point, which you have to subtract from 90° to obtain the colongitude. Hopefully VMA will give you the same number.

--

By the way, as to searching an archive of images for something with similar lighting, LTVT has a probably little-known Photo times search capability under "Files...". You simply present the program with a list of dates and times and it will automatically search through those to tell you the ones that show the Moon at a particular colongitude, or more importantly, those that show a particular feature (like Gassendi) at a definite sun angle. There was at one time a list of the dates and times of all the Consolidated Lunar Atlas plates available on the LTVT download page; there is now a more extensive list of calibration data for each, which permits an even more powerful Find photos search telling you if the feature of interest is actually included in the observation. Both these search functions work for drawings as well as photos.

-- Jim


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Matt Looby
scholastic sledgehammer


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Posts: 792
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Re: Gassendi and environs 16 May 2008 new [Re: Jim Mosher]
      #2407844 - 05/20/08 09:09 AM

Hi Jim,


Read the wiki link explanation - co-longitude. I am getting
"educated'" big time. Thank you- really appreciate you taking the time
explain co-longitude in detail.
There is much to learn in all the links.
As soon as I can, I will get a chance to down load your program-
I am going to check out the Horizons as well and look at CLA photo times search.

Thanks for setting me straight,

Matt

--------------------
CN GALLERY














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