astroducky
super member
Reged: 10/02/06
Posts: 198
Loc: South East Asia
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Hi,
I have been thinking of awhile which would be a better choice. My primary aim is to get a scope that is ultra portable and meant for widefield terrestrial and astronomy use. It is not really meant for planetary/ lunar due to the small aperture as no small scope can ever match my 12.5" dob.
If I were to compare the (66ED to 80ED) refractor (if I buy the scope it will be mounted on my Microstar Mount) to a 10x50 FMT-SX Fujinon on a monopod, which do you think is a better choice for widefield terrestrial and astronomy and being ultra portable? Also, how good are monopods and is there any recommended monopod for binocular usage?
Thank you.
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Yang
12.5" Obsession "Obby" [2008 Paracorr/ AN/ Roundtable]
William Optics M88FD refractor on Microstar Deluxe
Zeiss 6x18 monocular
10x42 Nikon Monarch binoculars
7T6, 11T6, 17T4, 35Pan, 8/32 TV Plossl
Baader Ortho 5, 6
TV 2x Barlow
Edited by astroducky (05/23/08 09:14 AM)
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4209
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I would go with both for a very portable combination-the binocs for the wide field, the scope for more detail.
If limited to only one, my ? would be which would I use more-the fujis over the Nikons or the small scope over the Obscession? The binoculars reportly are great. The scope as a grab and go that could could sub as a finderscope for the 12.5" would be very useful.
I have a very solid Bogen/Manfrotto monopod which can also be used as a walking stick. I use it more as a walking stick as (at least to me) a monopod is awkward to use with binoculars. I would rather handhold or use a tripod.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
Edited by edwincjones (05/23/08 06:28 AM)
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6684
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
If I were to compare the (66ED to 80ED) refractor to a 10x50 FMT-SX Fujinon on a monopod, which do you think is a better choice for widefield terrestrial and astronomy and being ultra portable?
Hi Astroducky,
I don't think a monopod is really a good idea with any of the instruments that you've mentioned. For the refractors, a monopod will just not be enough support, especially the ED80. For the 10x50's and astro viewing, I think the monopod will just get in the way. For terrestrial viewing the monopod might be helpful in steadying the binocs. As far as being ultra portable, laying on your back or sitting in an 'antigravity' chair is about as ultra as you can get.
My other observation is that two eyed viewing is always better than one, particularly for wide field scanning of the heavens. In the end, telescopes and binoculars are complementary instruments, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
For me, I think I've narrowed down my ultimate portable setup to a pair of 15x70's mounted on a gear headed tripod.
Regards,
Patrick
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Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
Denk Binoviewers
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR
My Astronomy Pages
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astroducky
super member
Reged: 10/02/06
Posts: 198
Loc: South East Asia
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Hi,
Thanks for the replies. Actually I did not word properly. If i were to buy a ED080 it will be mounted on a tripod (I have a microstar mount). If I were to buy the 10x50 Fujinon it has to be mounted some how, maybe on a monopod. The reason I ask is because I will only have budget for either case. Either a small scope on my microstar or a 10x50 Fujinon on a monopod. I am not sure which is the better alternative considering that both have their advantages and disadvantages. A small scope big advantage is that it would have different magnifications but disadvantage is that it is 'one eye' viewing. The binoculars on the other hand cannot change magnification, is heavy (and need maybe a monopod?) but advantage is two eye viewing.
Therefore for widefield (>4 degrees), has anyone compared the views of a ED80 (let say at about almost the same magnification as the 10x50 binoculars) to that of the 10x50 Fujinon? How does it compare? Also, is a monopod useful for binoculars? I am pretty sure I cannot handhold the 10x50 Fujinon because of its weight of 1.4kg and 10x magnification.
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Yang
12.5" Obsession "Obby" [2008 Paracorr/ AN/ Roundtable]
William Optics M88FD refractor on Microstar Deluxe
Zeiss 6x18 monocular
10x42 Nikon Monarch binoculars
7T6, 11T6, 17T4, 35Pan, 8/32 TV Plossl
Baader Ortho 5, 6
TV 2x Barlow
Edited by astroducky (05/23/08 09:10 AM)
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 1914
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
My primary aim is to get a scope that is ultra portable and meant for widefield terrestrial and astronomy use ...
If I were to compare the (66ED to 80ED) refractor to a 10x50 FMT-SX Fujinon on a monopod, which do you think is a better choice for widefield terrestrial and astronomy and being ultra portable?
You certainly can use a small, short-focus refractor on a monopod, or even hand-held. I've done so. But frankly, it would be criminal waste to mount an APO on a monopod routinely. That's like buying a sports car and never driving it above 5 mp.h.
If you're going to go that route, buy yourself a cheap achromat instead of an APO. At the magnifications where a monopod will work, you'll never notice the difference.
Even if you don't want to study the Moon and planets, a 66-mm APO will do its best work at 30X and higher. That puts it into an entirely different class from 10x binoculars.
If it was me (actually, it is me!), I would either:
- Compromise and get 15X or 18X image-stabilized binoculars.
- Get both lightweight binoculars (not Fujinons!) and a small refractor, and mount the refractor properly, on a photo tripod.
You might be interested in my comparison of 15x70 binoculars against a 70-mm refractor.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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ronharper
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 964
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Yang,
I have to qualify my opinion by saying I don't own a small refractor (but wish I did!) but do use binos and larger scopes.
If you didn't already have a decent bino, I'd say you simply MUST experience bino observing, and would recommend the 10x50 Fujinon, a really fine astronomy binocular, for your first or only. But, I see you have a 10x42 already. While it may not quite equal the performance of the 10x50 Fujinon, it is easier to hold and will give a similar view.
If you are willing to use the Monarch on the sky, fill the gap with the small refractor on a steady mount, or a large bino (a 16x70 Fujinon costs the same as the 10x50) possibly trying a reclining chair with good armrests, which is fairly steady and very comfortable, instead of a fairly steady but neck-twisting monopod. Tony's comparison is a great info to help decide between the two.
If, however, for some sad reason you can't use the 10x42 for bino astronomy, you gotta' try it, go for the 10x50.
Ron
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10029
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I would get one of the ED refractors , mount it on your microstar , and attach your existing 10 x 42s to the same mount , as and when required .
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Tony Flanders
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 1914
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Actually I did not word properly. If i were to buy a ED080 it will be mounted on a tripod (I have a microstar mount). If I were to buy the 10x50 Fujinon it has to be mounted some how, maybe on a monopod. The reason I ask is because I will only have budget for either case.
OK, now I understand. And when I answered, I hadn't taken the trouble to look at the list of equipment you already own. Sorry about that.
As far as I'm concerned, this decision is about the easiest one I've ever heard discussed. You already own 10x42 binoculars; 10x50s are only going to give you a very modest improvement in performance. And as for optical quality -- I realize that I'm a heretic for saying this in this group, but my feeling is "who cares about optical quality?" The point of 10X binoculars, as far as I'm concerned, is to give you quick, convenient widefield views, not optical images that deserve to be hung in museums.
Let me rephrase that. If the Nikons that you currently own fill you with loathing every time you look through them because of their poor optical quality, then you need to upgrade. But if they're pretty good -- as I suspect they are -- then don't spend a huge amount of money upgrading. The difference between "pretty good" and "great" is mighty small in practical terms.
If you want optical images that can be hung in museums, those APOs will deliver them in spades. And they'll do that at magnifications where the optical quality really matters.
No, a 66-mm APO won't quite match binoculars at 10X, so you may still want to carry your current binoculars for widefield views. But the 66-mm APO at 15X still delivers a huge true field of view, while showing far more than 10X binoculars.
In other words, upgrading to 10x50 binoculars will make hardly any difference in what you can see. But buying a small APO will open up a whole new universe of possibilities.
If you really want to upgrade the binos, consider something like 15x70s, which would give you a qualitative jump in what you can see.
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Tony Flanders
eyeglasses
6x15 and 8x32 monoculars
8x25, 7x35, 10x30 IS, 10x50, and 15x70 binoculars
70mm and 100mm achromatic refractors
4.5", 7", and 12.5" Dobs
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4209
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I can agree with the 15 or 16 x 70mm binoculars as a good compromise.
If you plan on a tripod or monopod with the 10x50s, you might as well get the 70mm binoculars for a simular price, weight, but much more light gathering power-going from 42-50 to 70mms with binoculars makes a big difference.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2353
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Monopods with bino's do work well.. I have one I use with my various bino's quite successfully. You can extend it out in front of you for viewing up overhead, use it leaning your back against something for additional stability, etc.
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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astroducky
super member
Reged: 10/02/06
Posts: 198
Loc: South East Asia
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies. I did consider the 15x70 Binoculars but the problem with them is that their eye relief is too short. I need to wear glasses due to astigmatism when dealing with binocular's exit pupil sizes.
Yes I agree that the refractor will be much more versatile and that the 10x50 Fujinon is probably not a big leap aperture wise compared to the 10x42 Nikon I have. I would think image wise it is...
Is it safe to say that a 66ED is not much better than a 10x50 Binoculars in terms of widefield? I need to know because I have not looked through a 66ED at stars and only looked through a 80mm refractor twice. The best choice would be a 80ED? In terms of pricing, the 80ED will be similar to the 10x50 Fujinon.
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Yang
12.5" Obsession "Obby" [2008 Paracorr/ AN/ Roundtable]
William Optics M88FD refractor on Microstar Deluxe
Zeiss 6x18 monocular
10x42 Nikon Monarch binoculars
7T6, 11T6, 17T4, 35Pan, 8/32 TV Plossl
Baader Ortho 5, 6
TV 2x Barlow
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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2614
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Yang, have you ever tried a binocular with individual eyepiece focussing (IF) for terrestrial viewing? The Fujinon 10x50 does not have central focussing, you know.
For astronomy the 10x50 Fujinon will be a definite step above your 10x42 Nikon Monarch. But we're talking about just slightly sharper and brighter (and yes, the edge sharpness will be very good). It's not going to show you an entire new range of objects nor significant new features or detail in the ones you can already see.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1555
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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The Canon 15x50 IS AW & 18x50 IS AW both offer 15mm's for eye relief.
You could invest the cost of a monopod/tripod & head into the Canon Image Stabilizer binocular.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=107
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10029
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Is it safe to say that a 66ED is not much better than a 10x50 Binoculars in terms of widefield? >
It is far safer to assume , for all intents and purposes that a 66ED will NOT offer wider true fields of view than 10 x 50 binoculars AT ALL .
With all the variation of advice being offered above , I wouldn't blame you for feeling even more unsure now of what to buy than you were before starting this thread !
Don't worry though -- that sometimes happens here ! :-)
The suggestions for Canon image stabilised binoculars as a kind of " one do all " alternative is an interesting one -- but given that you already own a decent mounting system , I'm sticking by what I suggested earlier .
Get yourself an ED scope for higher magnification / wideISH field viewing , and stick with your 10 x 42 binoculars for lower magnification / widER field viewing .
Apart from the incomparable differences in what you can see through a 80mm scope with up to and above 100x magnification Vs. 10 x 50 binoculars , there is the never to be underestimated viewing comfort advantage of right angled offset viewing angle -- and think of ALL the alternatives with those wonderful eyepieces you already own and are familiar with !
Clear skies -- and thoughts !
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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pcad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1464
Loc: Connecticut
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I have a 66ED scope that can be used with a 2" 50mm eyepiece. This combo gives 8x with a calculated fov of ~7.5 degrees. The 66 is a f/6 scope and the 50mm ep is rated at an AFOV of 60 degrees. The only problem is that this gives a 8.25mm exit pupil. This is going to decrease the effective aperture depending on the users own pupil.
I can assure you that very few adults are walking around with 8+ mm pupils ;-)
A nice binocular is easier to use than a finder scope for wide field viewing for most people.
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6684
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
Is it safe to say that a 66ED is not much better than a 10x50 Binoculars in terms of widefield?
I have the AT66ED refractor and 9x60 and 15x70 binoculars. In terms of wide field scanning, I prefer either pair of binocs over the refractor. It's not because the 66ED isn't a capable instrument but because I prefer 2 eyed viewing.
Patrick
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Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
Denk Binoviewers
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR
My Astronomy Pages
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BobinKy
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 915
Loc: Country road
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Quote:
Also, how good are monopods and is there any recommended monopod for binocular usage?
I will leave the optics discussion in this thread to others. However, I do offer the following thoughts on a monopod setup that I use.Manfrotto 679B monopod
22.0 lb. (352 oz.) maximum load
1.8 lb. weight
20.0 in. minimum height
60.6 in. maximum height
Bogen 3232 swivel tilt head
5.6 lb. (89.6 oz.) maximum load
0.6 lb. weight
2.4 in. maximum height
Binocular tripod adapter
Different binoculars require different adapters
0.2 lb. weight
4.0 in. maximum height
Total setup
2.6 lb. weight (with head and adapter)
5.6 lb. maximum load (with head)
22.0 lb. maximum load (w/o head)
67.0 in. maximum height (with head and adapter) This monopod setup is extremely versatile for both terrestrial and night sky viewing. It always goes with me when I go on the trail or out and about for daytime observing. And I frequently use the monopod setup for night sky viewing when a traditional 3-legged tripod is left home--such as on business trips. A couple of months ago I found the monopod setup better than a tripod in close quarters. The monopod setup gave me a steady night sky view inches from the hotel room window while sitting in a chair. The swivel tilt head permits viewing from -90° to +90°, with a comfortable angle view of 60° of the night sky or a tall tree. The setup also works extremely well with the Pentax Papilio 6.5x21 Binocular for close observing of wildflowers and insects.
. . .
European birders sometimes use what is called a Finn Stick, which as far as I can gather is a monopod with a padded rest for the binoculars. The binoculars are not mounted to the Finn Stick, but are held in place by hand.
. . .
For outside observations over long periods of time, you may consider taking along a portable 3-legged stool such as the Walkstool.
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Bob
38° Kentucky, USA
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4209
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Yang,
As I read your initial question and responces to alternativies, it sounds like you really want the 10x50 fujis.
Get what you want and enjoy them.
I have had 3 fujis-7x50, 10x70, and now 25x150s and all are great binoculars and have never regreted getting them. I have regreted getting something else instead of what I really wanted.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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Nick Lloyd
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/24/06
Posts: 1565
Loc: cincinnati
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You've already got nice set of Monarch binos. Buy the 80ED refractor. The magnification range and versatility of these small telescopes is wonderful.
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"The best scope is the one you use." -rcg
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astroducky
super member
Reged: 10/02/06
Posts: 198
Loc: South East Asia
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies. I think I am considering more of the 80ED refractor kind; perhaps a range from 72 to 88mm aperture. I doubt I will get the 66ED as the jump in aperture compared to the bino is not large enough.
After thinking long and hard, it is good that I can use my existing mount and eyepieces. Also the refractor is much more versatile although I don't get to enjoy observing with 2 eyes. If I had unlimited funds, I will get both! 
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Yang
12.5" Obsession "Obby" [2008 Paracorr/ AN/ Roundtable]
William Optics M88FD refractor on Microstar Deluxe
Zeiss 6x18 monocular
10x42 Nikon Monarch binoculars
7T6, 11T6, 17T4, 35Pan, 8/32 TV Plossl
Baader Ortho 5, 6
TV 2x Barlow
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